Too much tweaking? Too powerful?

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Too much tweaking? Too powerful?

 

What’s a guy with the holy grail doing hanging around with gray market arms dealers?

 

This guys wearing too many hats. Immortal skill monster, mystic healer, AND Punisher Jr?

 

Everyone’s blowing up about the martial arts multipower, which, while correct, is over the top. ( Martial arts are already a semi-power framework, so they should never go inside one)

 

The current MA build, while illegal, is also not THAT efficient. NO ONE needs 50-odd points of martial arts. Have him buy four or five basic maneuvers (Martial Strike, Block, Dodge, throw, Escape) and a few combat skill levels so he can mix up the specific effects. Actually, a ‘super generic’ martial arts set can also be bought as a mass of HTH skill levels, and a few points of extra strength that doesn’t effect figured characteristics.

 

And by the way, martial arts don’t require ‘Gestures,’ any more than strength should. Punching or kicking someone isn’t a gesture, and it’s more complicated than ‘requires both hands.’ Actually, almost nothing should require gestures in a superhero game.

 

Actually, it shouldn’t even exist, but that’s a different argument.

 

As a general rule, it’s a good idea to pay attention to power frameworks. Despite the fact that half the published characters have three, in general most characters shouldn’t have more than 2, IF THAT. And I’d avoid pools completely until you really know what you’re doing. If he really wants the ‘gear’ pool, let him buy it as a multipower. Have him get the armor outside of it through a plain-old focus, and have everything in it be OAF, can only be switched back at base.

 

‘real weapon’ is another limitation I don’t really like, but again, this isn’t the place.

 

The skill pool is a MUCH bigger problem, rules wise and play wise, and no one even mentioned it . . . Make him buy his own damn skills, (he can get most of them at a slight discount from skill enhancers) Maybe some 5 point int skill levels with a limit on them (Out of date (-1/2)) And maybe universal translator, as well.

 

Most of the problems look like genuine mistakes, not blatant munchkinism, though.

--

C’mon. Who did pools right the first time? Anyone? Didn’t think so.

[largosama]

Re: Too much tweaking? Too powerful?

 

What’s a guy with the holy grail doing hanging around with gray market arms dealers?

 

This guys wearing too many hats. Immortal skill monster, mystic healer, AND Punisher Jr?

 

Everyone’s blowing up about the martial arts multipower, which, while correct, is over the top. ( Martial arts are already a semi-power framework, so they should never go inside one)

 

The current MA build, while illegal, is also not THAT efficient. NO ONE needs 50-odd points of martial arts. Have him buy four or five basic maneuvers (Martial Strike, Block, Dodge, throw, Escape) and a few combat skill levels so he can mix up the specific effects. Actually, a ‘super generic’ martial arts set can also be bought as a mass of HTH skill levels, and a few points of extra strength that doesn’t effect figured characteristics.

 

And by the way, martial arts don’t require ‘Gestures,’ any more than strength should. Punching or kicking someone isn’t a gesture, and it’s more complicated than ‘requires both hands.’ Actually, almost nothing should require gestures in a superhero game.

 

Actually, it shouldn’t even exist, but that’s a different argument.

 

As a general rule, it’s a good idea to pay attention to power frameworks. Despite the fact that half the published characters have three, in general most characters shouldn’t have more than 2, IF THAT. And I’d avoid pools completely until you really know what you’re doing. If he really wants the ‘gear’ pool, let him buy it as a multipower. Have him get the armor outside of it through a plain-old focus, and have everything in it be OAF, can only be switched back at base.

 

‘real weapon’ is another limitation I don’t really like, but again, this isn’t the place.

 

The skill pool is a MUCH bigger problem, rules wise and play wise, and no one even mentioned it . . . Make him buy his own damn skills, (he can get most of them at a slight discount from skill enhancers) Maybe some 5 point int skill levels with a limit on them (Out of date (-1/2)) And maybe universal translator, as well.

 

Most of the problems look like genuine mistakes, not blatant munchkinism, though.

--

C’mon. Who did pools right the first time? Anyone? Didn’t think so.

 

The fact that he's got the Holy Grail and is not 'Lawful Good' will come up in game soon enough.

 

Pools definitely made my head hurt (hell, everybody in the group was in pain trying to really understand them). I understand them a lot better nowadays but I still have to refer to the book a zillion times to fully explain it.

 

There are a few things on the characters in my group that hindsight being 20/20, I would change. For now, with the exception of things that are *very* sketchy (Alexander Lyons was probably the sketchiest) I'll leave them be and keep a close eye on them.

 

Luckily, there's a limiting factor on much Lyons can affect my campaign. That's the fact that I had everybody create three characters. They are all part of the same team. Each adventure, they can use one of the characters and they can't use them again until every one of their characters has been used. So, I'll only see Lyons every three adventures. While this does slow down individual character advancement, I find that it increases the team's flexibility, and it also creates an interesting game of planning (If we use the blaster in this group, we won't have a long range attack in our group for next week).

[Red Knight]

Re: Too much tweaking? Too powerful?

 

Not to be redundant... but the entire character concept seems o be BROKE!!

 

BATGOD or whatever he is calling him, is a classic example of a concept being squeezed into a lower powerframe.

I don't know what level you are starting the characters at, but you might want re-evaluate the characters keeping a close eye on the level. I ran into this when I tried to create a Green Lantern-esque character for a mid level game. I found that I didn't have the point so to make a full-fledged GL unless I "munchkined" it to death.

I ended up re-evaluating the character concept and redesigned it to represent the lower character level.

 

The game is yours and I would never assume to tell you how to run your game.... But I would have had to stand up and say... NO.. OH HELL NO!!!

 

 

My 2 cents worth.

[largosama]

Re: Too much tweaking? Too powerful?

 

Not to be redundant... but the entire character concept seems o be BROKE!!

 

BATGOD or whatever he is calling him, is a classic example of a concept being squeezed into a lower powerframe.

I don't know what level you are starting the characters at, but you might want re-evaluate the characters keeping a close eye on the level. I ran into this when I tried to create a Green Lantern-esque character for a mid level game. I found that I didn't have the point so to make a full-fledged GL unless I "munchkined" it to death.

I ended up re-evaluating the character concept and redesigned it to represent the lower character level.

 

The game is yours and I would never assume to tell you how to run your game.... But I would have had to stand up and say... NO.. OH HELL NO!!!

 

 

My 2 cents worth.

 

Heh, point taken. We're running a standard game (200 pts/150 disadv). I think a lot of the trouble in character building in HERO is that there are many ways to make an 'uber/cheesy' but legal characters. Combine that with so many people new to the system (including myself), it was tough to argue against something when I didn't really have anything to offer as an alternative. The only thing I did put my foot down upon was putting basic quirks as disadvantages (i.e. (this example didn't really happen) Dislikes apples)

[incrdbil]

Re: Too much tweaking? Too powerful?

 

I skipped over the skill pool. Wait till he tries to rationalize find weakness in that pool, or combat skill levels. Just buy skills.

 

I note the lack of Martial Arts damage classes. Any reason he's not got any?

 

Too many hunteds for you to bother with, honestly. Past Acquaintences? I see someones dodging vulnerabilities. Eliminate the Foxbat, unnbamed hunted--2-3 hunteds is a maxium for a character for you to deal with.

 

15 Physical Limitation: Inhuman Physiology (Infrequently, Fully Impairing)

Notes: The grail blessings are always on. Painkillers, anti-biotics, anti-depressants, etc all do not work. Surgery does not work (the incision will heal within minutes) and weird things happen as they try to treat him.

 

He heals, he is immortal. Not a disadvantage.

 

20 Hunted: Catholic Church 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish)

 

I assume you have a team of higher pointed "Church Police"? If not, no, the Church isn't more powerful. Don't confuse NCI with the power status. I'd check the power ratins closely on the other hunteds. more points does not mean more powerful.

 

15 Psychological Limitation: Avoids Publicity (Very Common, Moderate)

 

and this is limiting how? He has to make an ego roll to avoid fighting in public? He won't attack a high profile target? Will this really hinder him in your campaign?

 

As a suggestion: istead of the three characters per person, start with one. hat development is important, plus its a lot easier to develop a feel for what is working, oir adequate challenge levels for a group with a stable membership.

[largosama]

Re: Too much tweaking? Too powerful?

 

I skipped over the skill pool. Wait till he tries to rationalize find weakness in that pool, or combat skill levels. Just buy skills.

 

I note the lack of Martial Arts damage classes. Any reason he's not got any?

 

Too many hunteds for you to bother with, honestly. Past Acquaintences? I see someones dodging vulnerabilities. Eliminate the Foxbat, unnbamed hunted--2-3 hunteds is a maxium for a character for you to deal with.

 

 

 

He heals, he is immortal. Not a disadvantage.

 

20 Hunted: Catholic Church 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish)

 

I assume you have a team of higher pointed "Church Police"? If not, no, the Church isn't more powerful. Don't confuse NCI with the power status. I'd check the power ratins closely on the other hunteds. more points does not mean more powerful.

 

15 Psychological Limitation: Avoids Publicity (Very Common, Moderate)

 

and this is limiting how? He has to make an ego roll to avoid fighting in public? He won't attack a high profile target? Will this really hinder him in your campaign?

 

As a suggestion: istead of the three characters per person, start with one. hat development is important, plus its a lot easier to develop a feel for what is working, oir adequate challenge levels for a group with a stable membership.

 

There is a kind of 'church police' that will be introduced. There are mystical/religious forces with the Church that allows for the More Powerful with the NCI

 

I agree with you on the 'Avoids Publicity' limitation and I have passed that on to the player. Ditto on the Martial Arts damage classes

 

As for the three characters, I appreciate the advice, but it's a format that is working for us and has allowed the story to go in different directions without completing shifting the campaign's focus

[largosama]

Re: Too much tweaking? Too powerful?

 

15 Physical Limitation: Inhuman Physiology (Infrequently, Fully Impairing)

Notes: The grail blessings are always on. Painkillers, anti-biotics, anti-depressants, etc all do not work. Surgery does not work (the incision will heal within minutes) and weird things happen as they try to treat him.

 

He heals, he is immortal. Not a disadvantage.

 

That is debatable. I had to do some thinking about this one as well when he came up with this. However, there will be times when he has to deal with something that his body can't heal (the evil bad guy ultimate evil-doer curse attack or something like that) yet no one will be able to operate on him due to this.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Too much tweaking? Too powerful?

 

Oh, and I missed this before. A multipower’s the wrong way to do the ‘blessings of the grail’ bit. If he’s knocked out or killed, it won’t switch over to the fast healing or the resurrection slot for him. Which might make sense for some special effects, but not this one, I think. Also, even if you can legally put Life Support in a framework, (and I don’t think you can) I wouldn’t allow it here. (Also, you have to buy something continuous before you can make it persistent, unless it already is, like a force field)

 

Still, five power frameworks, all of which are illegal, may be a record of some kind . . .

 

A little general advice.

There’s a few traditional ‘limitations’ that aren’t really very limiting. Keep an eye on Visible, Gestures, Restrainable, Incantations, OIHID, Always On (there must be a real problem for the character for this to be used. And no way does it go on only one slot in a multipower) Real Weapon, and (for a martial artist types) x2 or x3 end. One or two on the outside is usually fine, but as they stack, they get add up to big price breaks for practically nothing.

 

Most of the ‘visible’ limitations on the various powers are for powers that are visible anyway. Transforms, aids, arguably life support (I mean, if the guy isn’t dying, it’s obvious that SOMETHING special is going on)

 

Another thing to watch for is Hunteds. Players love them because they’re usually GMed as an ADVANTAGE. They cause no problems the player wouldn’t have to deal with anyway (I mean, if you’re a superhero, you KNOW you’re going to have to fight supervillains . . .) they just insure that the player with them will be in the spotlight more of the time. And most of the time his buddies will help him take care of them.

 

Hunteds are EXTRA crap the player has to deal with, on top of everything else. Usually aimed at the PLAYER, not the team. (“Grailman doesn’t have any DNPCs, but Stigmata Man does. Lets kidnap them and force HIM to bring us the Grailâ€)

 

When they affect the party, everyone should know damn well just whose extra power points they’re being made to suffer for. (“Grailman . . . we just got a letter from the Vatacan . . . We’ve all been excommunicated. I elect you to go break the news to Stigmata Man.â€)

 

And they show up a LOT. An 8- hunted should cause a player noteworthy headaches every fourth game, on average . . . Or REALLY BIG headaches somewhat less often.

 

--

Does killing someone count as ‘Harshly Punish’ if they’re just going to get back up again in a week? And PLEASE don’t tell me Cataran wants to marry him . . .

[garou]

Re: Too much tweaking? Too powerful?

 

The skill pool was just an idea that the player and I had to represent the fact that he has been around for 2' date='000 years and knows a lot of things. This way, he'd be able to recall (just using as an example) how to build a wooden barrel or how to ride a horse. There was no way to list everything, so we put it into a pool. Now, I'm definitely not going to let him be able to do 'everything', but enough so that it uses his history to his advantage enough[/quote']

 

 

Sure, but you also have to take other factors into account. Imagine that, for some reason, the PC needs to make a wooden barrel, quickly. Mr. Immortal worked as a cooper sometime during the mid 1600's. So, aside from the disadvantages of having to adapt skills developed pre-power tools to current tools, he also hasn't used the skill in 400 years. Oh wait - he doesn't sleep, so it's about 600 years (figuring 1/3 of life spent sleeping) that have gone by since he used the skill last.

 

Try not using a skill for a couple decades, and see how much you remember, when on the spot. I had French in grade school and high school, but haven't used it since then. I might be able to puzzle my way through an Asterix comic, but I'd be grabbing a dictoinary a lot, and that's been only 15-odd years. Imagine how much worse some things would be - if you haven't done them in a century or two.

 

Sure, he's a hero - but only skills which were used consistently through the centuries are going to be current, useful, and adapted to the modern era.

 

Other thoughts: Gray market contacts, and not even watched by police or law enforcement?

 

Why does he have the Normal Chracteristic Maxima: No Age Restriction as a disad?

 

For someone whose been around for so long, his Code of Conduct is relatively recent. Why not something "older" - he was around when looting, rapine, torture, etc were all common and accepted practices.

 

No rep as an immortal? No one knows about this and is hounding him for the secret to his long life?

 

The Phy Lim isn't as much a limitation as it seems. He heals anyway, can regrow limbs, and can come back from the dead. Heck, by the time the ambulance could get him to the ER, he's fine - it's going to be noticeable, but I'm not sure that it's fully impairing.

 

Add'l random thought, concerning the Catholic Church and the code of Conduct. If he has ever committed certain acts (ie, murder - even in a duel or self-defence), then he could still be prosecuted for them. Murder has no statute of limitations - so that duel he got into just after the War of American Independence could still land him in legal hot water. Esp. if the Church manages to put together enough evidence for a trial. Conviction might be a snap - he cannot break his word, so if he swears to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" it should be a short cross-examination.

[incrdbil]

Re: Too much tweaking? Too powerful?

 

That is debatable. I had to do some thinking about this one as well when he came up with this. However' date=' there will be times when he has to deal with something that his body can't heal (the evil bad guy ultimate evil-doer curse attack or something like that) yet no one will be able to operate on him due to this.[/quote']

 

 

A very rare occurance. The disadvantage isn't really limiting., Especially on a character who gets to sit out 2 of three adventures--normal body recovery will take care of him.