New defence power: Damage Conversion

[Sean Waters]

OK, here's the pitch: bullet proof vests act by spreading the impact of a bullet so that it does not penetrate. I see this as converting a killing attack to a normal attack. There is no mechanism for doing this in HERO.

 

So, here's the idea. You can buy Damage Conversion for, say, 2 points a pop, and each point converts 1DC of damage you take from killing to normal damage.

 

Damage conversion does not STOP any damage at all, it just changes the type.

 

Then your basic bullet proof vest would look something like this:

 

Armour 2 (3 points) Damage Conversion 4 (8 points) OIF 7 real points.

 

Say you get hit by a 2d6 RKA, you take 4d6 normal and 1/2d6 killing damage, say 14 stun 4 body normal and 2 Body x3 = 6 Stun killing. Assuming that under the BPV you are a normal squidgy with 2pd, you take (2kill body-2armour)=0+(4normalbody-2pd)=2 BODY and (14+6)-(2+2)=16 Stun.

 

Normal 'medium kevlar' (8armour-similar cost) would have stopped (assuming 7 BOD/21 stun) all the body and 8 stun for a damage total of 0/13.

 

Of course DamCon would mitigate the stun lottery so a more extreme damage roll would have worked out better for the DamCon power - if the roll on the dice had been (say) 9 Body and x4= 36 Stun, armour would have let 1 Body/28 stun through. The DC option (say 3Body x4 stun and 18/5 for the normal) would have let 6 Body and 26 Stun through. Mind you a lot of that is because the squidgy has only 2 pd: up it 6, say 8, the human maximum, and the results start looking a lot better:

 

Example 1, armour 0 BODY and 11 stun

Dam Con 0 BODY and 10 stun

 

Example 2, armour 1 BODY and 28 Stun

Dam Con 1 Body and 20 stun

 

...of course, if the kill damage roll would have been low then the attacker is probably better off against an opponent with DamCon

 

I'm not committed on cost or even whether the thing should be an advantage to existing defences, but what do you think of the idea in principle?

[prestidigitator]

Re: New defence power: Damage Conversion

 

Well, I'm not real enthusiastic about a target's defenses or powers changing how an attacker rolls damage. This could get really messy for Area of Effect attacks, Explosions, etc.

 

With that in mind, I think Damage Resistance does exactly the thing you are describing: the functional difference between Killing Damage and Normal Damage (except for the way it is rolled) is that Normal Damage allows you to add your normal PD/ED to any naturally Resistant PD/ED you may have for the Body damage. Damage Resistance, "converts," your normal PD/ED to Resistant PD/ED, so that it is added to any naturally Persistant PD/ED.

Example

Whichever type of attack, say it rolls

7 Body, 21 Stun Physical

damage. The type of attack and target's defenses are as follows:

1. KA, 4 PD, 4 rPD Armor:
   Target applies 4 DEF vs. the Body (taking 3) and 8 DEF vs. the Stun (taking 13).
   
   
2. KA, 4 PD, 4 rPD Armor, DResist for 4 PD:
   Target applies 8 DEF vs. the Body (taking zero) and 8 DEF vs. the Stun (taking 13).
   
   
3. NA, 4 PD, 4 rPD Armor:
   Target applies 8 DEF vs. the Body (taking zero) and 8 DEF vs. the Stun (taking 13).

2 and 3 have the same results. Given the same damage rolls for a Killing Attack and a Normal Attack, Damage Reduction serves to even their effects vs. the target (to the point where, if the Damage Resistance is the same as the character's full DEF of the appropriate type, Normal and Killing damage looks exactly the same to the character).

 

So, your bullet proof vest could simply be built as:

Armor: 2 rPD, 2 rED; OIF: vest (-1/2);

[6 Active, 4 Real]

+Damage Resistance: 4 PD to rPD, 4 ED to rED; OIF: vest (-1/2);

[4 Active, 3 Real]

 

EDIT: Or, completely equivalently:

+2 PD, +2 ED; OIF: vest (-1/2);

[4 Active, 3 Real]

+Damage Resistance: 6 PD to rPD, 6 ED to rED; OIF: vest (-1/2);

[6 Active, 4 Real]

[Sean Waters]

Re: New defence power: Damage Conversion

 

Well, I'm not real enthusiastic about a target's defenses or powers changing how an attacker rolls damage. This could get really messy for Area of Effect attacks, Explosions, etc......

 

The difference, to my mind is the mechanics of damage calculation. I have never been that happy with the killing attack mechanic, even if you use a fixed stun multiplier, say 3, you still tend to have quite wild variation on the BODY damage as you are only using a third of the dice of an equivalent normal attack. Now I don't mind this too much generally but the biggest problem to my mind has always been wehn killing attacks interact with defences which don't stop them completely. To my mind a bullet that doesn't penetrate or a fire that doesn't actually touch flesh is not simply a killing attack with some damage taken off, but is a qualatitively different sort of damage.

 

I would not think damage conversion would be right for all or even most games: it is more complicated to administer, but only a little, and so should only be used optionally BUT it seems to me to give a more accurate and realistic result.

[OddHat]

Re: New defence power: Damage Conversion

 

I don't like it. Damage Resistance already does almost the same thing (lets you apply your normal defenses against the Stun of a Killing attack). Just define a bullet proof vest as Damage Resistance with an OIF and you're done.

 

If you really don't like the killing attack mechanic, go straight to the problem and drop the damn things. In my current game I'm seriously thinking of replacing Killing Attacks with normal EBs, then using a +1/4 advantage "Killing" to apply the damage only against resistant defenses. It's a deeply discounted version of AVLD Does Body, and it will require some recalculations of real-world weapon damage in play, but it feels balanced. A 1d6 killing attack currently gets you 3.5 Body and 8.75 Stun against Resistant defenses for 15 points. Make "Killing" a +1/4 advantage, and you get 2 Body and 7 Stun for 12 points.

 

Incidently, the AVLD+Does Body mechanic, a huge +2.5 advantage, is probably overpriced.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New defence power: Damage Conversion

 

I have used EB that you can apply as a killing attack for +0 advantage quite successfully: far more predictable damage and familiar mechanics. At present 3DC of EB or RKA cost the same so it doesn't seem to need an advantage (although, I agree, it should have one if we are just considering balance, and it should probably be at least +1/2 as that is the 'conversion factor' for normal to resistant defences).

 

I was trying to find a way to mitigate killing attacks in the wider game though, without necessarily removing the KA mechanic, which I know a lot of misguided people like.

[OddHat]

Re: New defence power: Damage Conversion

 

I was trying to find a way to mitigate killing attacks in the wider game though, without necessarily removing the KA mechanic, which I know a lot of misguided people like.

 

Which is fine and dandy, but in a Supers game with Conversion you're very likely removing the mechanic for every character with resistant defenses anyway. It would seem simpler to just drop KAs.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New defence power: Damage Conversion

 

Which is fine and dandy' date=' but in a Supers game with Conversion you're very likely removing the mechanic for every character with resistant defenses anyway. It would seem simpler to just drop KAs.[/quote']

 

Conversion as suggested is more expensive and less effective than spending the points on defences in most cases: it is really only there for those who really don't like the stun lotto. In a game with a 60AP attack limit you'll need to spend 24 points on damage conversion to be reasonably safe from the stun lotto: in most cases +24 pd or +16 armour would be far more effective.

 

Mind you I can see the way the wind is blowing, so I won't press the suggestion, but I reserve the right to rework it and sneak it back in later

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: New defence power: Damage Conversion

 

I think it's unneeded. Yes that is how a bulletproof vest works, but between killing and stun we already mimic it good enough for me

[prestidigitator]

Re: New defence power: Damage Conversion

 

Conversion as suggested is more expensive and less effective than spending the points on defences in most cases: it is really only there for those who really don't like the stun lotto. In a game with a 60AP attack limit you'll need to spend 24 points on damage conversion to be reasonably safe from the stun lotto: in most cases +24 pd or +16 armour would be far more effective.

 

Mind you I can see the way the wind is blowing, so I won't press the suggestion, but I reserve the right to rework it and sneak it back in later

How about an Advantage that effectively decreases he Stun Multiplier for all the Body that is blocked by the defense? The way this could be done simply is to apply a multiplier to the defense for applying to Stun. For example, it could be like this:

Increased Stun Removal (+1/2)

Resistant defenses normally provide their defense equally against Stun and Body damage. They subtract the applicable DEF from Body and N*DEF from Stun, where N=1. Each application of this Advantage adds +1 to N.

Example

Jane buys 10 rPD Armor (15 Base Points; rED is 0), and applies Increased Stun Removal twice (for a total of +1 and 30 Active Points). The Armor is thus effectively 10 rPD against the Body of an attack and 3*10=30 PD vs. the Stun of an attack. This could normally be bought as 10 rPD armor and +20 PD which is Stun Only (-1/2) for 15+13 = 28 points.

[Grail Quest]

Re: New defence power: Damage Conversion

 

OK' date=' here's the pitch: bullet proof vests act by spreading the impact of a bullet so that it does not penetrate. I see this as converting a killing attack to a normal attack. There is no mechanism for doing this in HERO.[/quote']

 

Instead of making a whole new power to handle a specific type of SFX that you're having difficulty with, why not define that SFX differently?

 

If, for example, you define bullets and other projectiles as having Armor Piercing on only the BODY portion of damage, a bullet proof vest defined as being Hardened Armor would reduce lethality without reducing STUN, giving you approximately the effect you are aiming for.