Mind Control question

[largosama]

Here's the situation:

 

Baron Von Awesome has been subjected to some major EGO drains from the bad guy, reducing him below 0. He wants to hit the bad guy, but due to his low EGO, he only has a minute chance of taking an action... no problem (well, for me as the GM at least ;-) Anyhoo, along comes Silhouette, the team's mentalist... she uses Mind Control and uses it on Baron Von Awesome and directs him to attack the bad guy.

 

Baron Von Awesome wants to attack the bad guy... Silhouette is an ally of Awesome... that's fine. However, I stopped Awesome from making EGO rolls due to his low EGO because he was being controlled.

 

Now, intially, I had no problem with the Mind Control... it was inventive and fun to watch it unfold... however, is this a way to completely ignore EGO drains? Should I still have had Awesome make EGO rolls since his EGO was still low?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind Control question

 

I don't think I'd force the Ego rolls. He has to make ego rolls to attack under his own volition, but Mind Control means he's no longer acting of his own volition.

 

I would, however, enforce the same limits that apply to mind control by a hostile character. The Baron will attack, but he will not do so creatively. Commands must be communicated, so unless that Mind Control has telepathic effects, the Baron's moves are being nicely telegraphed.

 

And (not that it's likely to succeed), the Baron must keep making his breakout rolls.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Control question

 

You don't even need a friendly menatalist - The Baron would obey a voice order to attack the bad guy (although the bad guy could tell him not to and I'd then have the second good guy and the bad guy compare PRE in some way to see who The Baron obeys).

 

All a negative EGO does is prevents you from making decisions for yourself: basically you are a meat machine and will do whatever you are told.

 

Of course this sort of 'remote control' can sometimes backfire - the Baron won't change what he is doing - he'll keep on attacking - say the Baron can not fly but the villain can, and the Baron only has HtH attacks - he'll leap at the villain even if that means falling to his death. Basically he has to do what he is told - whoever tells him!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Control question

 

What would you do to the cost of an Ego Drain if it had the limitation/advantage: drain only effects the target as far as attacker is concerned.

 

i.e. Mandolin (normally Ego 20) is drained to Ego -30 by IdSmasher. Normally he would do nothing unless told to, but with this limitation he can act completely normally, is no more vulnerable than anyone else to mental attacks, etc UNLESS voice commanded (or mentally attacked) by IdSmasher.

 

Certainly it is less of a limitation to Mandolin in some ways, but it does mean IdSmasher can effectively voice control him once drained, and he can not be simply stopped by someone else telling him to go to sleep. Advantage? Limitation? Balanced?

[largosama]

Re: Mind Control question

 

Does the Baron need to make Breakout rolls? I thought it said that he 'May' make breakout rolls, so he doesn't need to.

 

Also, with a negative EGO, do his psychological limiations still apply (such as Code Against Killing)?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mind Control question

 

Boo!

 

Ahhhh!

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Control question

 

Technically with negative END his Psych Lims are in effect more than ever, as he will never make the EGO roll to overcome them. Equally breakout rolls (if he is mind controlled) will be virtually impossible to make because of the massive penalties: if your EGO is at -30, a 35 point effect gets you EGO+30 effect (kill your own grandmother) on a breakout roll of 9+EGO/5=9-6=3, with an additional -7 on the roll for the power of the effect: take theses dice and roll a 3....

 

Oh, and pres: cruel, very cruel!

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Mind Control question

 

What would you do to the cost of an Ego Drain if it had the limitation/advantage: drain only effects the target as far as attacker is concerned.

 

i.e. Mandolin (normally Ego 20) is drained to Ego -30 by IdSmasher. Normally he would do nothing unless told to, but with this limitation he can act completely normally, is no more vulnerable than anyone else to mental attacks, etc UNLESS voice commanded (or mentally attacked) by IdSmasher.

 

Certainly it is less of a limitation to Mandolin in some ways, but it does mean IdSmasher can effectively voice control him once drained, and he can not be simply stopped by someone else telling him to go to sleep. Advantage? Limitation? Balanced?

nice, but wouldn't it be simpler to buy it as cumulative Mind Control with an implied fade rate?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Control question

 

nice' date=' but wouldn't it be simpler to buy it as cumulative Mind Control with an implied fade rate?[/quote']

 

Had a villain called The Rat King, who had a small (1d6) EGO drain with a large area effect, and telepathic mind control, only a couple of dice worth. The EGO drain was defined as not effecting the targets except to make them susceptible to the mind control, so basically you have TRK moves in to an area, and his power gets to work altering everyone's brain so that they obey his commands. Works out cheap and nasty - excellent for contolling civillian populations and setting them on the heroes, but pretty poor at effecting the heroes, which is what I was after.

 

If you get drained down to -30 EGO, ANY mind control attempt is going to be at least at the EGO+30 level, and breakout is virtually impossible, and because the base powers are so cheap, the area of effect can be huge and still not cost too much (this was before megascale, you understand) - result - the whole town turns against the heroes: spooky stuff!

 

Ego drain 1d6 (invisible effects +1, personal immunity +1/4, radius +1, increased radius (x256) +2, 0 END +1/2) costs 57 points

 

Mind control 2d6 (telepathic +1/2, area effect +1, increased radius +2 0 END +1/2) 50 points

 

Whole thing 107 points. Effects everyone in a 1km radius

 

Then he has some clairsentience and telepathy so he could 'possess' individuals.

 

He sat at the centre and pulled their strings: they acted perfectly normally until he possessed them or game them commands, and he could commans a whole town to come down to the park and attack the heroes.

 

Cumulative MC does work too, I just liekd the idea of the sort of dual attack: changing the minds then controlling them. I think under 5ER (if I rememeber right a change from FRED) you buy 2d6 mind control, cumulative (+1/2) then that gives you 12 points of effect, maximum. To get the above effect for 10 ego normals you would require +30 effect (40 total) and another +40 to make the breakout rolls 3 (virtually impossible), or 80 in total. 80-12=68, so you'd be paying 10+(68/2) for the base power=44 points.

 

Then you add in cumulative, 0 END, telpathic (+1 1/2) and x128 radius (+2 3/4) and the power costs 231 points. Given that is more expensive that is probably the 'correct' way

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Mind Control question

 

I suggest you read Night Chills by Dean Koontz-- they had a chemical and subliminal media (as SFX) that did the same thing (Drain to Neg EGO) to a small town- VERY low fade rate, extra time to start (overnight, seeing the subliminals) and a Command Phrase (incantation)...Limitation: only vs Speaker of command phrase

 

Works great until some schmuck (protagonist) hears the Command Word.

 

Scarier, better written, and same theme was False Memories by Koontz, but no AOE...

[austenandrews]

Re: Mind Control question

 

I would' date=' however, enforce the same limits that apply to mind control by a hostile character. The Baron will attack, but he will not do so creatively.[/quote']

Is that the case? Does negative EGO imply reduced ability? I'll have to look at the 5E rules for negative stats. I haven't for quite some time.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Mind Control question

 

I'm playing the aforementioned Baron von Awesome, and even I thought that the mind control effect seemed kinda cheesy. It just flat out negated the ego drain (effectively... granted, it meant I almost killed someone, but luckily with my code against killing, I managed to stop in time).

 

However, I think any kind of drain of characteristics is a little cheesy, since it's such an unusual attack with little defense and only a small amount of "damage" is required to incapacitate a character (Baron von Awesome, despite the name, is quite easily influenced, and thus had an EGO of 8). So in the end, I was ok with being mind controlled to do what I wanted anyway, but it is an odd case of powers interacting in unusual ways.

 

-Nate

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind Control question

 

Is that the case? Does negative EGO imply reduced ability? I'll have to look at the 5E rules for negative stats. I haven't for quite some time.

 

The mind control creates the issue - the Baron will do what he is told. No more, no less. He won't take initiative, since the confidence to do so is represented by his Ego.

[austenandrews]

Re: Mind Control question

 

The mind control creates the issue - the Baron will do what he is told. No more' date=' no less. He won't take initiative, since the confidence to do so is represented by his Ego.[/quote']

I dunno, perusing the book I see nothing to imply that a character's skills are affected by negative EGO. Granted, if I drain Spider-Man's EGO below zero and tell him to take out Captain America, I wouldn't expect him to devise an elaborate scheme to infiltrate the Avengers so he can do the job. But neither would I expect Spidey to forget all his skills and experience and just jump Cap in an alley. If that makes any sense.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Control question

 

I dunno' date=' perusing the book I see nothing to imply that a character's skills are affected by negative EGO. Granted, if I drain Spider-Man's EGO below zero and tell him to take out Captain America, I wouldn't expect him to devise an elaborate scheme to infiltrate the Avengers so he can do the job. But neither would I expect Spidey to forget all his skills and experience and just jump Cap in an alley. If that makes any sense.[/quote']

 

At less than zero EGO you need to make an EGO roll to not obey a command, so it depends how the command is phrased:

 

"Attack X" - you attack X - no dodging, blocking etc. When X is unconscious, someone will need to tell you to stop.

 

"Attack X with your most powerful attack!" - lots of pushed haymakers, and nothing else.

 

"Fight X defensively" - blocks and dodges abound, and maybe a defensive strike if X basically ignores you.

 

Point is you have to do what you are told - EGO allows you to command yourself, and when you have none you can't. It does not mean that you don't use skill levels or martial arts, but what it does mean is that you have to obey the command as given - just like you would a mind control. If you EGO drain Spidey and point at CAP and say 'Take him out' he will try and do so there and then, even if it is not a tactically advantagous time or place to attack. Moreover, as the command clearly wants you to act offensively, so I probably would not allow Spidey to use defensive manouvres if an offensive one was available, no running away and recovering, etc, etc...

 

That's the way I'd play it - you are not stupid (that is an INT drain) you just don't get to decide what to do.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Mind Control question

 

 

If you EGO drain Spidey and point at CAP and say 'Take him out' he will try and do so there and then, even if it is not a tactically advantagous time or place to attack. Moreover, as the command clearly wants you to act offensively, so I probably would not allow Spidey to use defensive manouvres if an offensive one was available, no running away and recovering, etc, etc...

 

 

I dunno, I would think maybe Spidey would buy him some flowers and take him to a nice restraunt, and after dinner perhaps go for an intimate walk on Staten Island where they can both admire the Statue of Liberty lit up during the night...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind Control question

 

At less than zero EGO you need to make an EGO roll to not obey a command, so it depends how the command is phrased:

 

"Attack X" - you attack X - no dodging, blocking etc. When X is unconscious, someone will need to tell you to stop.

 

"Attack X with your most powerful attack!" - lots of pushed haymakers, and nothing else.

 

"Fight X defensively" - blocks and dodges abound, and maybe a defensive strike if X basically ignores you.

 

Point is you have to do what you are told - EGO allows you to command yourself, and when you have none you can't.

 

Exactly.

 

It does not mean that you don't use skill levels or martial arts, but what it does mean is that you have to obey the command as given - just like you would a mind control. If you EGO drain Spidey and point at CAP and say 'Take him out' he will try and do so there and then, even if it is not a tactically advantagous time or place to attack. Moreover, as the command clearly wants you to act offensively, so I probably would not allow Spidey to use defensive manouvres if an offensive one was available, no running away and recovering, etc, etc...

 

That's the way I'd play it - you are not stupid (that is an INT drain) you just don't get to decide what to do.

 

Yep. Spidey would not, for example, employ the "Firelord tactics", blocking and dodging on Cap's phases and using his own superior speed to attack a couple of times per turn. Nor would he come to the conclusion of "enough with the shield, already", attack it with a web line and grab it away using his superior strength. He was told to beat up Cap, and (absent a successful Ego roll to dekonstrate some initiative and use a more effective tactic), he will do so in the most straightforward manner possible.

[austenandrews]

Re: Mind Control question

 

Personally I'd approach it as a comic writer would (assuming we're talking about Champs) - that is, unless I had some story reason not to, I'd allow the setup enough flexibility to be interesting. Which means I would allow a negative-EGO character to use whatever tactics would come naturally, within the immediate context of the command. So assuming a basic command like "take down the Hulk," I would definitely allow Spidey to duck and dodge, use his acrobatics and generally employ standard tactics to follow the command (since obviously just punching the Hulk won't work). He wouldn't phone the Hulk's girlfriend as an emotional distraction or anything that requires too much personal initiative, but webbing the Hulk's face and then kicking him into the nuclear reactor they're fighting above? I don't see that as unreasonable. These are tactics that would come to an old pro like Spidey almost reflexively.

 

I expect this is one of those grey areas that everyone will interpret differently.

 

Edit: I should probably add that I'm more generous than most other GMs I've known when it comes to the effectiveness of mental powers. I've seen too many mentalist PCs get stiffed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Control question

 

I dunno' date=' I would think maybe Spidey would buy him some flowers and take him to a nice restraunt, and after dinner perhaps go for an intimate walk on Staten Island where they can both admire the Statue of Liberty lit up during the night...[/quote']

 

Medic! My sides just split!

 

Personally I'd approach it as a comic writer would (assuming we're talking about Champs) - that is, unless I had some story reason not to, I'd allow the setup enough flexibility to be interesting. Which means I would allow a negative-EGO character to use whatever tactics would come naturally, within the immediate context of the command. So assuming a basic command like "take down the Hulk," I would definitely allow Spidey to duck and dodge, use his acrobatics and generally employ standard tactics to follow the command (since obviously just punching the Hulk won't work). He wouldn't phone the Hulk's girlfriend as an emotional distraction or anything that requires too much personal initiative, but webbing the Hulk's face and then kicking him into the nuclear reactor they're fighting above? I don't see that as unreasonable. These are tactics that would come to an old pro like Spidey almost reflexively.

 

I expect this is one of those grey areas that everyone will interpret differently.

 

Edit: I should probably add that I'm more generous than most other GMs I've known when it comes to the effectiveness of mental powers. I've seen too many mentalist PCs get stiffed.

 

I would not have a problem with Spidey finding an inventive way to take down Hulk, so long as basically all he was doing was attacking - IF that was what the command was. If it was take him down (or out....) I wouldn't be too happy about him wasting time dodging - he knows Hulk is never going to get tired and shagged out like FireLord did.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind Control question

 

Personally I'd approach it as a comic writer would (assuming we're talking about Champs) - that is' date=' unless I had some story reason not to, I'd allow the setup enough flexibility to be interesting. Which means I would allow a negative-EGO character to use whatever tactics would come naturally, within the immediate context of the command. So assuming a basic command like "take down the Hulk," I would definitely allow Spidey to duck and dodge, use his acrobatics and generally employ standard tactics to follow the command (since obviously just punching the Hulk won't work). He wouldn't phone the Hulk's girlfriend as an emotional distraction or anything that requires too much personal initiative, but webbing the Hulk's face and then kicking him into the nuclear reactor they're fighting above? I don't see that as unreasonable. These are tactics that would come to an old pro like Spidey almost reflexively.[/quote']

 

I woud agree if Spidey were mind controlled, and not otherwise impaired. Where I see the loss of initiative arising is in the Ego drain such that he lacks much in the way of personal initiative. In oither words, the Mind Control doesn't take away his ability to make tactical decisions, but it also doesn't return that personal initiative if it has already been drained away (just as he isn't as effective in combat if he's already exhausted and badly injured than if he were fresh, regardless of whether he's mind controlled).

 

Mind you, the "I'd never be able to hold him off if he were attacking me under his own volition" thought is a pretty common one in the comics, so maybe the character should be somewhat impaired from the Mind Control alone. That would probably better be handled by allowing a "partial control" mechanic, in my view. If you achieved the +X result needed, then the controlled character should act to the best of his ability to successfully follow the command.

[austenandrews]

Re: Mind Control question

 

In oither words' date=' the Mind Control doesn't take away his ability to make tactical decisions, but it also doesn't return that personal initiative if it has already been drained away (just as he isn't as effective in combat if he's already exhausted and badly injured than if he were fresh, regardless of whether he's mind controlled).[/quote']

We seem to have different interpretations of what requires personal initiative. As an example of my view, say Brain Drain saps a corporate exec's EGO below zero. Brain Drain then commands him to "sell the company to me." While I wouldn't say the exec would concoct the most creative and efficient strategy, he would be capable of performing the various tasks needed to follow orders. That is, Brain Drain wouldn't have to dictate each step in the process. The exec would know what he's doing. Now, lest the exec lose focus and wander off into traffic, Brain Drain would have to sit with him and keep him on task - and that's essentially what Mind Control does.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with a GM using your interpretation, but I wouldn't do it that way myself.

 

Mind you, the "I'd never be able to hold him off if he were attacking me under his own volition" thought is a pretty common one in the comics, so maybe the character should be somewhat impaired from the Mind Control alone. That would probably better be handled by allowing a "partial control" mechanic, in my view. If you achieved the +X result needed, then the controlled character should act to the best of his ability to successfully follow the command.

That sounds reasonable. Though I'd be inclined to impose a -X modifier "can only follow command literally" instead of a +X modifier. It's already too hard to get a good result from Mind Control.