Some Ideas for Tank Gun Ammo

[shadowcat1313]

I think I actually posted some ideas for this earlier, but lost what I had posted in a drive crash, so here goes again

 

 

Basic Tank Gun: Multipower, 125-point reserve, all slots 125 Charges (+3/4) (219 Active Points); all slots OIF Bulky (-1), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4), Custom Modifier (Real Weapon; -1/4)

 

APHE Round: Killing Attack - Ranged 3 1/2d6, Semi-Armor Piercing (+1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range (2,750"; +1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2) (124 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4), Custom Modifier (Real Weapon; -1/4)

 

Armor Piercing Capped Round: Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range (2,625"; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (120 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4), Custom Modifier (Real Weapon; -1/4)

 

Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot Round: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6+1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range (2,800"; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (125 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Inaccurate 1/2 OCV (Past Half Range; -1/4), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4), Custom Modifier (Real Weapon; -1/4)

 

Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot Depleted Uranium Round: Killing Attack - Ranged 2 1/2d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range (2,750"; +1/4), Penetrating (+1/2), Armor Piercing (x2; +1) (120 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Custom Modifier (Special Handling Procedures Required; -1/2), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4), Custom Modifier (Real Weapon; -1/4)

 

Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot Round: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6+1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range (2,800"; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (125 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4), Custom Modifier (Real Weapon; -1/4)

 

Canister Round: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Semi-Armor Piercing (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range (2,800"; +1/4), Area Of Effect (17" Cone; +1) (124 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4), Custom Modifier (Real Weapon; -1/4)

 

HEAT Round: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6+1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range (2,800"; +1/4), Armor Piercing (x2; +1) (125 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), OIF Bulky (-1), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4), Custom Modifier (Real Weapon; -1/4)

 

High Explosive Squash Head Round: Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range (2,625"; +1/4), Penetrating (+1/2) (120 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4), Custom Modifier (Real Weapon; -1/4)

 

Standard HE Round: Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range (2,625"; +1/4), Explosion (+1/2) (120 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4), Custom Modifier (Real Weapon; -1/4)

 

HEAP Round: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6+1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range (2,800"; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2) (125 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Crew-Served (2 people; -1/4), Custom Modifier (Real Weapon; -1/4)

[Toadmaster]

Re: Some Ideas for Tank Gun Ammo

 

Since you've listed actual stats I assume this is one tank gun, it doesn't say which (100mm, 105mm, 115mm, 120mm 125mm?) I am assuming a modern gun. This brings up pt 2, the range of ammo is pretty wide for a specific gun, APHE, APC, APDS & HE are primarily WW2 / Korean era rounds, you won't find them in a modern gun (most modern guns use HESH or HEAT for the HE role), Cannister is rare in modern guns, when it is found it ofetn goes under the name Bee-hive which uses flechettes trigered at range, Cannister uses pellets out the bore like a shotgun.

 

HEAT and HEAP are basically the same thing, there is another HEAP which is not AP at all but designed for extra anti-personnel effect, I believe it is just a Soviet thing.

 

Also if you are going for all round types you left out HVAP High Velocity Armor Piercing, this was sort of an early APDS round, lightweight non-discarding sleeve with a hard core (usually an aluminium "sleeve" and a tungston core). WP White Phosphorus, used for smoke and incediary / anti-personnel effect, and Chemical rounds (primarily smoke but poison gas is available for some guns).

 

As far as the gun itself I'd add a limitation, slots must be selected out of game, basically the ammo has to be loaded before battle, as it is theorectically the gunner can adjust the ammo during the fight with a magic ammo selector lever.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Some Ideas for Tank Gun Ammo

 

These are some WW2 era guns I did awhile back, the 75mm is very expensive compared to the other guns because of the WP round.

 

75mm M3 tank gun: (238 pts, max range 1000")

Rmod +7

Multi-power (283 pts), 97 charges (+¾); OIF Bulky (-1), Real weapon (-¼), Charges must be assigned to slots when re-supplied (-¼)

 

Armor Piercing (188 pts)

RKA 5d6, +7 Increased STUN multiplier (+1 ¾), Beam (-¼)

 

High Explosive (149 pts)

Energy blast 17d6, Explosion (+½), Increased maximum range (+¼)

 

White Phosphorus Incendiary / smoke (283 pts)

Energy blast 6d6, Explosion (-1 DC per 2”; +¾), Increased maximum range (+¼), Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+½), 0 Endurance (effects last for 1 minute; +½), (120 pts)

RKA 3d6, Area of effect (9” radius; +1¼), Increased maximum range (+¼),

0 Endurance (+½), Reduced penetration (-¼), Linked (-½) (101 pts)

Change environment – Smoke (-3 to sight group), 16” radius, Increased maximum range (+½), Uncontrolled (+½), 0 Endurance (effects last for 1 minute; +½), Linked (-½) (62 pts)

 

 

 

76mm M1 tank gun: (166 pts, max range 1500")

Rmod +8

Multi-power (225 pts), 71 charges (+¾); OIF Bulky (-1), Real weapon (-¼), Charges must be assigned to slots when re-supplied (-¼)

 

Armor Piercing (220 pts)

RKA 5d6+1, +7 Increased STUN multiplier (+1 ¾), Increased maximum range (+¼), Beam (-¼)

 

High velocity armor piercing (225 pts)

RKA 4d6, Armor piercing (x2; +1), +7 STUN multiplier (+1¾), Increased maximum range (+¼), Beam (-¼)

 

High Explosive (131 pts)

Energy blast 15d6, Explosion (+½), Increased maximum range (+¼)

 

Smoke (65 pts)

Change environment – Smoke (-4 to sight group), 8” radius, Increased maximum range (+½), Uncontrolled (+½), 0 Endurance (effects last for 1 minute; +½), Gradual effect (1 turn, post-segment 12; -¼)

 

 

 

8.8cm KwK36 tank gun: (236 pts, max range 2000")

Rmod +12

Multi-power (300 pts), 92 charges (+¾); OIF Bulky (-1), Real weapon (-¼), Charges must be assigned to slots when re-supplied (-¼)

 

Armor Piercing (249 pts)

RKA 5½ d6, +8 Increased STUN multiplier (+2), Increased maximum range (+¼), Beam (-¼)

 

Armor Piercing Composite Rigid (300 pts)

RKA 5d6, +8 Increased STUN multiplier (+2), Armor piercing (x2; +1), Increased maximum range (+¼), Beam (-¼)

 

High Explosive (158 pts)

Energy blast 18d6, Explosion (+½), Increased maximum range (+¼)

 

 

 

APCR is basically the German version of HVAP

 

You may notice the "better" AP rounds have AP x2, I was assuming tanks would have 1 level of hardend, this allows these rounds (which typically were 50-100% better penetration than the standard AP rounds) to get through heavy armor that stops the standard rounds without having tanks with 100 PD.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Some Ideas for Tank Gun Ammo

 

my bad, the one I used was just a generic tank gun, I base my damage ratings on the weapons muzzle velocity

 

theres a new canister round being used on the abrams thats listed as anti infantry and anti-helicopter

 

Thank you a bunch for your input

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Some Ideas for Tank Gun Ammo

 

the Tungsten rounds for the German Guns should also have a limitation on availability, they were hard to produce to begin with

[Toadmaster]

Re: Some Ideas for Tank Gun Ammo

 

I figured it was a generic tank gun, at first I thought it would just be modifiers so seeing the actual DC etc stat-ed out kind of had me wondering.

 

I had not heard about a new round but they show up from time to time, the 105mm used in the M60, Centurian and early M1 had a beehive round. For a game it doesn't really matter if both are called Cannister but there is a difference. Cannister or going back further Grapeshot is literally a big shotgun, multiple projectiles emerge from the bore of the gun. Beehive on the other hand a single round exits the muzzle and goes down range hundreds or thousands of meters before it is triggered and detonates sending its payload of multiple projectiles downrange, so Beehive has a much longer effective range. Not really sure how you would write it up since its kind of like a shotgun that teleports the muzzle way over there before the RbR etc starts to kick in.

 

 

Interesting idea on the lim for ammo, personally I'd leave it as an RP thing done in game as its availability varied through the war. Same could be said for the HVAP in US tanks, it was hard for tanks to get it since most went to the tank destroyer units. Until late in the war most tanks were lucky to have 2 or 3 rounds of HVAP on hand.

 

Not even sure of how to do a split availability but I'm thinking something like

 

APCR 1940-1943 11-, 1944-45 8-

HVAP Tank destroyer 14-, tank 1944 8-, tank 1945 11-

 

Still unless the PC's are buying it with points think its probably best to just put it in the description.

 

 

I had some much more radical ideas for armored combat I wrote up some time ago. It involved changing alot of assumptions like more use of advantages / lims than currently used (AP, hardend, piercing etc). Its difficult to work with PD / DC and still have some variety when you get past the DC9 / PD 15-20 range.

 

I'll try and dig them up, to see if there was anything useful or just mad ravings.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Some Ideas for Tank Gun Ammo

 

what got me started on this idea was while perusing The Ultimate Vehicle and realizing that the 120mm gun on the abrams and the 16" gun on the Iowa do the same damage

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Some Ideas for Tank Gun Ammo

 

 

I had not heard about a new round but they show up from time to time, the 105mm used in the M60, Centurian and early M1 had a beehive round. For a game it doesn't really matter if both are called Cannister but there is a difference. Cannister or going back further Grapeshot is literally a big shotgun, multiple projectiles emerge from the bore of the gun. Beehive on the other hand a single round exits the muzzle and goes down range hundreds or thousands of meters before it is triggered and detonates sending its payload of multiple projectiles downrange, so Beehive has a much longer effective range. Not really sure how you would write it up since its kind of like a shotgun that teleports the muzzle way over there before the RbR etc starts to kick in.

 

Explosion, Cone Shaped (Using optional alternate AOE shapes for Explosion rules), Reduced Penetration, and possibly Non Selective.

Explosion takes the place of Reduced by Range.

It's occasionally easy to forget that Cone Shaped and Line Shaed Area attacks aren't naturaly No Range, because SOOOO many applications for the Advantages work best that way (Flamethrowers, f'rinstance)

 

Pick a DCV 3 Target Hex, Shoot Beehive round at hex. Behive detonates at hex, cone expands from that pont. The wider the cone spreads the less damage targets in the blast take.

 

3rd edtion using some of the optional rules would've done this better, using Kevin Dockerty's Fragmentation rules from The Armory & Golden age of Champions, but thus far I haven't managed to come up wit a 5th edition legal way to do them (essentialy it'd work as a Non Selective AOE CONE Autofire with a fixed OCV for the fragments that decreases as the cone spreads, so each target in the AOE would be attacked wth a seperate roll using the appropriate OCV based on distance from detonation and environmental conditions such as cover, then the number of hits would be based on how well the attack rolled)

 

Done & Done.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Some Ideas for Tank Gun Ammo

 

what got me started on this idea was while perusing The Ultimate Vehicle and realizing that the 120mm gun on the abrams and the 16" gun on the Iowa do the same damage

 

 

Yes, I know the feeling, thats where I got the idea of trying out piercing, same damage but much better armor penetration. I mean from a practical perspective getting hit by a 120mm or 16" round probably doesn't make alot of difference (just a different consistancy of mist), but a 16" round will penetrate alot more than a 120mm gun.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Some Ideas for Tank Gun Ammo

 

Explosion, Cone Shaped (Using optional alternate AOE shapes for Explosion rules), Reduced Penetration, and possibly Non Selective.

Explosion takes the place of Reduced by Range.

It's occasionally easy to forget that Cone Shaped and Line Shaed Area attacks aren't naturaly No Range, because SOOOO many applications for the Advantages work best that way (Flamethrowers, f'rinstance)

 

Pick a DCV 3 Target Hex, Shoot Beehive round at hex. Behive detonates at hex, cone expands from that pont. The wider the cone spreads the less damage targets in the blast take.

 

3rd edtion using some of the optional rules would've done this better, using Kevin Dockerty's Fragmentation rules from The Armory & Golden age of Champions, but thus far I haven't managed to come up wit a 5th edition legal way to do them (essentialy it'd work as a Non Selective AOE CONE Autofire with a fixed OCV for the fragments that decreases as the cone spreads, so each target in the AOE would be attacked wth a seperate roll using the appropriate OCV based on distance from detonation and environmental conditions such as cover, then the number of hits would be based on how well the attack rolled)

 

Done & Done.

 

I liked the 3rd edition version of modern weapons much better, DI had some of the best fragmentation / shotgun rules I've seen. Grenades were deceptively dangerous since the shrapnel on modern grenades was effective well beyond the blast.

 

I've tried to write up alot of the old rules under 5th ed but they usually comeout very complex and still not as good.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Some Ideas for Tank Gun Ammo

 

I liked the 3rd edition version of modern weapons much better, DI had some of the best fragmentation / shotgun rules I've seen. Grenades were deceptively dangerous since the shrapnel on modern grenades was effective well beyond the blast.

 

I've tried to write up alot of the old rules under 5th ed but they usually comeout very complex and still not as good.

 

I feel your pain, brother!

We lost some very good rules when HERO was tuned to be a truely "universal" system. Besides the Shotgun & fragmentation rules already mentioned, the DI drug system was golden, The JI Gadget system was great and the vehicle rules from Champions 2 flat out SMOKED the modern iteration.

 

Next time I head to Fresno I may have to pull some of my older books out of storage.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Some Ideas for Tank Gun Ammo

 

I have a lot of of the older books handy thankfully