Swimming Stuff

[Frenchman]

I have a few thoughts/questions about swimming.

Most movement modes (Running, Flight) are doubled when going down (with gravity) and halved when going up (against gravity), but it seems that swimming shouldn't work this way (for normal humans, at least) since people float - so should Swimming movement be increased when heading towards the surface, and decreased when diving? Seems that x2/.5 isn't quite right to me, though.

Also, it is easier to lift heavy things underwater, because the water supports more of their weight than air does - but carrying even a little extra weight can severely hamper your swimming ability, especially if you are trying to swim upwards. If the extra wieght is denser than water, that is.

 

I'm saying because I am planning a contest for a fantasy Hero game in which the contestants must dive to the bed of a lake, and carry stones back out. Most stones in a single breath wins. The above issues are all things that will impact the interaction between the rules and roleplaying of this contest, and I'm looking for suggestions or page references dealing with these things.

Thanks all

[Robyn]

Re: Swimming Stuff

 

I'm looking for suggestions or page references dealing with these things.

 

I don't have any page references, but from what you're describing it sounds like a Change Environment that provides Density Decrease - which, unfortunately, is not a power (the entry under Density Increase recommends taking a Physical Disadvantage for lower-density characters, which is not helpful).

 

I would really like to see Density Increase expanded for this, by the way - it could do Feather Fall very nicely then, reducing maximum velocity and rate of acceleration by one step along the maximum velocity table for each level of Density Decrease perhaps?

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Swimming Stuff

 

Normal humans have nearly neutral buoyancy. Modeling the slight amount of positive buoyancy most humans possess would likely add nothing to game play except more bookkeeping.

 

Characters who are much denser or lighter than normal might more easily dive or ascend while swimming, but I would probably just rule that the amount of swimming they have is not affected unless something happens to give the character markedly more or less buoyancy than normal. For a dense character, I would suggest a PHY LIM: "Can Not Float" and assign some reasonable sink rate (maybe 1"/turn or more). That way, when the character is swimming, he must expend that many inches of swimming each turn just to keep from sinking. This reduces the amount of swimming available for moving horizontally, while allowing the character's descents to be more speedy and his ascents more difficult. If a character is significantly less dense than water, I would have him buy inches of swimming per turn that work to keep him from sinking, and might possibly allow a PHY LIM: "May Not Submerge" or "Excessivey Buoyant", depending on how difficult and/or inconvenient it is to be unable to submerge.

 

As far as underwater encumbrance is concerned, even before we consider the weight of the stones the character wants to carry, I'd note how they are carried. If the character can just stuff them in his pockets, that leaves his arms and legs free. If he carries the stones in his arms, I'd guess he'd have maybe half his swimming available for the job. If you look on page 379 of the HERO System 5th Edition Revised (what's the standard abbreviation for all that anyway?) you'll find the encumbrance tables. Due to the negative buoyancy issue, I'd opt for using the DCV mods as negative modifiers to inches of swimming/phase (or perhaps treat them as a per-turn sink rate, as with the dense example above). If you use the normal encumbrance numbers, Joe Normal can swim with up to 108.9 pounds of excess baggage without sinking. I might allow this if he was carrying this weight of life preservers, but if it were a like weight of stones, I'd expect him to sink like one.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Swimming Stuff

 

You could abandon realism and just assume that each extra stone you carry costs 1 END/phase. Then it is all about who can find stones quickest, and who can hold their breath for longest, rather than the weight they can carry.

[Frenchman]

Re: Swimming Stuff

 

Normal humans have nearly neutral buoyancy. Modeling the slight amount of positive buoyancy most humans possess would likely add nothing to game play except more bookkeeping.

 

I am hardly an expert swimmer or anything, but I've fooled around in the water enough to have noticed that descending isn't just a little harder than ascending, its a lot harder.

Then again, you may be right. Simpler is better. Mayber just +/-1" of swimming, regardless of the characters total inches, to represent that.

 

...assign some reasonable sink rate (maybe 1"/turn or more). That way' date=' when the character is swimming, he must expend that many inches of swimming each turn just to keep from sinking. This reduces the amount of swimming available for moving horizontally, while allowing the character's descents to be more speedy and his ascents more difficult. [/quote']

 

While you were suggesting this for those characters which are generally dense, I may klept it for use with the encumberance idea you had.

 

As far as underwater encumbrance is concerned' date=' even before we consider the weight of the stones the character wants to carry, I'd note how they are carried. If the character can just stuff them in his pockets, that leaves his arms and legs free. If he carries the stones in his arms, I'd guess he'd have maybe half his swimming available for the job. [/quote']

 

It's assumed that there will be a variety of approaches to this.

 

If a character is significantly less dense than water' date=' I would have him buy inches of swimming per turn that work to keep him from sinking, and might possibly allow a PHY LIM: "May Not Submerge" or "Excessivey Buoyant", depending on how difficult and/or inconvenient it is to be unable to submerge.[/quote']

 

I'm reminded of a character I once had...a demon trapped in a fat person's body. He had a power built like this, and no other swimming. It was funny when he got thrown off the boat. He was pretty funny in general.

 

If you look on page 379 of the HERO System 5th Edition Revised (what's the standard abbreviation for all that anyway?) you'll find the encumbrance tables. Due to the negative buoyancy issue' date=' I'd opt for using the DCV mods as negative modifiers to inches of swimming/phase (or perhaps treat them as a per-turn sink rate, as with the dense example above). If you use the normal encumbrance numbers, Joe Normal can swim with up to 108.9 pounds of excess baggage without sinking. I might allow this if he was carrying this weight of life preservers, but if it were a like weight of stones, I'd expect him to sink like one.[/quote']

 

Hmmm... ReFred is out in the car, but FH is within arm's reach. I think that I'll use your idea, -1" for bing over 10% encumbered, -2" over 25%, etc... I'll only count the wieght of the stones, and any other metal objects they're dumb enough to bring in. Some characters may have the bright idea of carrying wood (or tying a rope to a floating log so they could climb up- that would be smart), so I think I'll count those as negative wieght for determining the movement penalty.

 

You could abandon realism and just assume that each extra stone you carry costs 1 END/phase. Then it is all about who can find stones quickest' date=' and who can hold their breath for longest, rather than the weight they can carry.[/quote']

 

That is tempting, and I may end up going with it.

[Robyn]

Re: Swimming Stuff

 

I am hardly an expert swimmer or anything' date=' but I've fooled around in the water enough to have noticed that descending isn't just a little harder than ascending, its a [u']lot[/u] harder.

 

Some characters may have the bright idea of carrying wood (or tying a rope to a floating log so they could climb up- that would be smart),

 

Let an especially clever NPC come up with the idea of carrying a bag of stones to accelerate their descent, only to abandon the bag at the bottom.

 

A mathematically-oriented NPC might carry multiple bags of stone, and some wood; some of the bags counteract the wood's buoyancy, and the rest of the bags provide additional weight for sinking. The extra bags (for sinking) are abandoned at the bottom to allow for moving around, and the rest of the rocks can be separated from the logs to rise to the surface with them. The only drawbacks are having to tug along a large bundle of logs and rocks, possibly against the current, and having to prepare a bag of rocks ahead of time for each trip they will make into the lake. (The wood is reusable.) I assume the rocks at the bottom of the lake are distinguishable in some way, so it will be clear that the contestant is not merely coming back up with the rocks they just took down there?

[Frenchman]

Re: Swimming Stuff

 

Let an especially clever NPC come up with the idea of carrying a bag of stones to accelerate their descent' date=' only to abandon the bag at the bottom.[/quote']

 

Except that the goal of the contest is to collect stones and bring them up to the baskets. Though the irony in a character (NPC or PC) potentially doing this did make me hurt my diseased lungs laughing.

 

A mathematically-oriented NPC might carry multiple bags of stone' date=' [i']and[/i] some wood; some of the bags counteract the wood's buoyancy, and the rest of the bags provide additional weight for sinking. The extra bags (for sinking) are abandoned at the bottom to allow for moving around, and the rest of the rocks can be separated from the logs to rise to the surface with them. The only drawbacks are having to tug along a large bundle of logs and rocks, possibly against the current, and having to prepare a bag of rocks ahead of time for each trip they will make into the lake. (The wood is reusable.) I assume the rocks at the bottom of the lake are distinguishable in some way, so it will be clear that the contestant is not merely coming back up with the rocks they just took down there?

 

I had not assumed (or thought of) that the 'lake-rocks' were anything special. Usually rocks at the bottom of a lake are the same as those on the shore and nearby, just rounder. That is a good idea, though.

The idea of using wood and rocks together is also intriguing, and since the rest of the contests the characters will be facing are solvable by wits as well as physical prowess, it could well apply.

Thanks for the thoughts.