New Mechanic: Shield Framework

[schir1964]

Shield Framework

A Shield Framework allows a character to create a shield that will automatically activate any/all powers contained within. When purchased the player must define the SFX of the shield when it activates and also must specify the Trigger SFX that triggers the activation (GM has final say on what is appropriate or needed for trigger: See Adjustment Power Modifiers for expanding/restricting SFX of trigger).

 

Framework

• Pool: The Pool represents the Maximum Active Points that each slot may have. Pool Cost = 1 Point Per 1 Active Point.
  Note: Pool is Instant and Costs Endurance For Each Activation by default.
  
• Slot: Slots may contain any single power that is purchased as normal with advantages and limitations.
  Note: All powers placed within the framework are automatically defined as Instant, No Range, and Zero Endurance by default.
  

 

Pool Cost: 1 Point Per 1 Active Point.

Slot Cost: As per normal cost of power purchased.

 

Yes, I'm taking another stab at making a more consistent Damage Shield mechanic.

 

Disclaimer: Don't bother posting how this mechanic isn't necessary or is a waste of time. I won't respond to posts of this nature. This is a work in progress and any or all concepts/costs above are subject to change via suggestions/comments posted. Costs are just a guess at this time. Is it balanced? I don't know. Those who want to evaluate the costs and suggest changes are welcome. If no one posts, I'll know that no one is interested in this concept and it will slide into the abyss with the other failed mechanics I've posted.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[GAZZA]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

So, for example:

 

Shield Framework - 62 point reserve [62 Active/62 Real]

1) 4d6 RKA vs ED [60 Active/60 Real]

2) 12d6 Flash Sight [60 Active/60 Real]

3) 2d6 RKA vs ED, Continuous, Uncontrolled [62 Active/62 Real]

 

for a flaming guy; the sfx is when you touch him there's a bright flash of heat which hurts a lot and may blind you, and in addition you get set on fire.

 

244 Active Points; for comparison:

 

EC, 75 pt reserve "Damage Shield" [75 Active/75 Real]

1) 4d6 RKA vs ED, Damage Shield, Continuous [150 Active/75 Real]

2) 12d6 Flash Sight, Damage Shield, Continuous [150 Active/75 Real]

3) 2 1/2d6 RKA vs ED, Continuous, Uncontrolled, AE: One Hex Accurate, Trigger (when touched; attacks the toucher; resets automatically +1)

[160 Active/85 Real]

 

310 Active Points.

 

It's interesting. The base proposal (ie one power as the Damage Shield) is basically similar to a +1 advantage, which sounds about right.

[GAZZA]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

Possibly something to consider (it bugs me about the 'real' Damage Shield as well): some sort of limitation or point break for using a Ranged power instead of a No Range power. I dislike the fact that putting an HKA into a Damage Shield costs the same as an RKA, when the former will either get to add STR or a limitation for not doing so, but the latter will not get a limitation for no longer being ranged.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

I think the damage shield is better constructed with the Trigger variants added in 5er. This was suggested in the DH article these variants first apeared in, but not added in 5er to avoid making a material change to these rules, IIRC.

 

Those variants suggested No Range be allowed as a limitation on powers that were ranged by default,

[GAZZA]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

I think the damage shield is better constructed with the Trigger variants added in 5er. This was suggested in the DH article these variants first apeared in' date=' but not added in 5er to avoid making a material change to these rules, IIRC.[/quote']

I've yet to start grabbing Digital Hero; might as well start with that issue if you have a number for it?

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

Possibly something to consider (it bugs me about the 'real' Damage Shield as well): some sort of limitation or point break for using a Ranged power instead of a No Range power. I dislike the fact that putting an HKA into a Damage Shield costs the same as an RKA' date=' when the former will either get to add STR or a limitation for not doing so, but the latter will not get a limitation for no longer being ranged.[/quote']

How would that affect the cost?

 

I've thought about doing that.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

I think the damage shield is better constructed with the Trigger variants added in 5er. This was suggested in the DH article these variants first apeared in, but not added in 5er to avoid making a material change to these rules, IIRC.

 

Those variants suggested No Range be allowed as a limitation on powers that were ranged by default,

For versatility I agree. But I can't post that here on the boards though. (8^D)

 

That DH article is one the changes I thought should have been included in the original rules or even the revised edition.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

I've yet to start grabbing Digital Hero; might as well start with that issue if you have a number for it?

Digital Hero #11

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

Also note that the Shield Framework isn't restricted to Attack Powers.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

Shield Framework

A Shield Framework allows a character to create a shield that will automatically activate any/all powers contained within. When purchased the player must define the SFX of the shield when it activates and also must specify the Trigger SFX that triggers the activation (GM has final say on what is appropriate or needed for trigger: See Adjustment Power Modifiers for expanding/restricting SFX of trigger).

 

Framework

• Pool: The Pool represents the Maximum Active Points that each slot may have. Pool Cost = 1 Point Per 1 Active Point.
  Note: Pool is Instant and Costs Endurance For Each Activation by default.
  
• Slot: Slots may contain any single power that is purchased as normal with advantages and limitations.
  Note: All powers placed within the framework are automatically defined as Instant, No Range, and Zero Endurance by default.
  

 

Pool Cost: 1 Point Per 1 Active Point.

Slot Cost: As per normal cost of power purchased.

 

Yes, I'm taking another stab at making a more consistent Damage Shield mechanic.

 

To me, defining all powers as instant, no range and 0 END by default skews the costing. I'll get the biggest value if I put powers that were no range and cost END by default in the framework, rather than powers that had range and cost 0 END by default. I also get a self-resetting Trigger for free if I understand the concept.

 

Disclaimer: Don't bother posting how this mechanic isn't necessary or is a waste of time. I won't respond to posts of this nature. This is a work in progress and any or all concepts/costs above are subject to change via suggestions/comments posted. Costs are just a guess at this time. Is it balanced? I don't know. Those who want to evaluate the costs and suggest changes are welcome. If no one posts' date=' I'll know that no one is interested in this concept and it will slide into the abyss with the other failed mechanics I've posted.[/i']

 

Disclaimer: I don't pay a lot of attention to disclaimers

 

Taking this with one slot, it basically forces the character to pay twice for the same power in order to have a damage shield of only one power. I can add additional powers by paying their full freight. I'm curious where the breakpoint would come up between this and a Multipower of damage shield powers. But I'm too lazy to do the math.

 

Some questions:

 

- Assume I have a 60 point pool and 3 60 point slots. The criteria for all three slots goes off simultaneously. What happens?

 

- Taking the above one step further, assume I bought Persistent and Always On on all three slots, and the criteria for all three, same as above, takes place when the character is unconscious.

 

- You mention using non-attack powers. Are you envisioning, for example, a Teleport that activates when the character is attacked? How would this differ from buying the Teleport with the Trigger advantage? [NOTE: If the answer is "not at all", I reserve the right to invoke my disclaimer to your disclaimer.]

 

- The powers are all Instant. How would this apply to, say, a Force Field that turns on when the character is attacked? It would shut off again, but reactivate when the character is attacked again. That's a bad buy, since I pay for the FF and the pool cost, but if I already paid for the pool cost, maybe it's a better purchase.

 

- A Force Wall, or Desolid, would be even better - it's up when I need it, then drops so I can attack on my segment without Indirect/Affects Real World.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

To me' date=' defining all powers as instant, no range and 0 END by default skews the costing. I'll get the biggest value if I put powers that were no range and cost END by default in the framework, rather than powers that had range and cost 0 END by default. I also get a self-resetting Trigger for free if I understand the concept.[/quote']

Yes, you are correct. Would removing these defaults cause an adverse effect on the costing? I'm not sure.

 

Disclaimer: I don't pay a lot of attention to disclaimers

Fair enough. (8^D)

 

Taking this with one slot' date=' it basically forces the character to pay twice for the same power in order to have a damage shield of only one power. I can add additional powers by paying their full freight. I'm curious where the breakpoint would come up between this and a Multipower of damage shield powers. But I'm too lazy to do the math.[/quote']

Even considering trying to compare those two makes my head hurt. But you would be paying a lot of overhead on the Multipower to ensure that all powers can be used a full capacity simultaneously.

 

- Assume I have a 60 point pool and 3 60 point slots. The criteria for all three slots goes off simultaneously. What happens?

I would presume the normal rules for MPA or Linked Powers would be followed. Hadn't really given that aspect much thought.

 

- Taking the above one step further' date=' assume I bought Persistent and Always On on all three slots, and the criteria for all three, same as above, takes place when the character is unconscious.[/quote']

I'm not sure I understand the question. I guess the same thing would happen if they were just linked together.

 

- You mention using non-attack powers. Are you envisioning' date=' for example, a Teleport that activates when the character is attacked? How would this differ from buying the Teleport with the Trigger advantage? [NOTE: If the answer is "not at all", I reserve the right to invoke my disclaimer to your disclaimer.']

As I said above, I think the Trigger expansion in the Hero Glyphs article solves this well enough, but since that solution isn't public information, I've used bits and pieces of different ideas in order to create a more consistent mechanic.

 

Obviously, if one is fine with the current Damage Shield or prefers the Trigger Alternative, then this construct is completely unnecessary.

 

- The powers are all Instant. How would this apply to' date=' say, a Force Field that turns on when the character is attacked? It would shut off again, but reactivate when the character is attacked again. That's a bad buy, since I pay for the FF and the pool cost, but if I already paid for the pool cost, maybe it's a better purchase.[/quote']

I envisioned it as turning on and off by default. If the defaults are removed, does this make the flicker effect more palatable or worth the cost?

 

- A Force Wall' date=' or Desolid, would be even better - it's up when I need it, then drops so I can attack on my segment without Indirect/Affects Real World.[/quote']

But you will also be paying END for the Pool each time also. Ten activations means ten separate END expenditures.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[GAZZA]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

How would that affect the cost?

Well, speaking purely off the top of my head, I would simply say that all powers in a Shield Framework must be No Range, but they still get a limitation for it if appropriate. I can't see that as being unbalanced if you compare HKA to RKA, or HA to EB.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

Even considering trying to compare those two makes my head hurt. But you would be paying a lot of overhead on the Multipower to ensure that all powers can be used a full capacity simultaneously.

 

OK, I was reading the pool as being the total points available. If they can all be used simultaneously, this becomes a much more powerful ability if one wants multiple attack powers all going off at once.

 

As I said above' date=' I think the Trigger expansion in the Hero Glyphs article solves this well enough, but since that solution isn't public information, I've used bits and pieces of different ideas in order to create a more consistent mechanic.[/quote']

 

Most of that article is in 5er. Only the replacement for Damage Shield missed the cut. For example, a 10" teleport that has one defined condition (+1/4) that takes no time (+1/4) and resets itself immediately (+1/2) would cost 20 x 2 = 40 points. That's built entirely with material available from 5er.

 

Obviously' date=' if one is fine with the current Damage Shield or prefers the Trigger Alternative, then this construct is completely unnecessary.[/quote']

 

While not published, building a damage shield construct using Trigger would seem fairly easy using the tools within 5er.

 

I envisioned it as turning on and off by default. If the defaults are removed' date=' does this make the flicker effect more palatable or worth the cost?[/quote']

 

So, for 40 points, I buy the framework pool. For another 27, I buy "Desolid, triggered when attacked, cannot pass through solid objects (-1/2)". My Desolid now turns on and off as needed, so I am effectively Desolid against all attacks with no need to place Affects Solid World on my Desolid. That seems pretty cheap for 67 points. For 100, my Desolid can be 0 END.

 

But you will also be paying END for the Pool each time also. Ten activations means ten separate END expenditures.

 

But I spend no END unless I'm attacked, so there's a tradeoff. If it's problematic, 0 END is a +1/2 advantage.

 

OverallI think that this is problematic for some defensive powers. I think a framework is not the best approach for even attack powers, as there is no reason for the cost of adding a second or third damage shield to be less than the cost of the first. I think there are other, better ways to design the same effect using the tools in 5er. These can be as simple as the present construct, but not requiring Continuous and/or allowing No Range on powers that were otherwise ranged, or using Trigger instead of Continuous to create this ability.

[GAZZA]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

So' date=' for 40 points, I buy the framework pool. For another 27, I buy "Desolid, triggered when attacked, cannot pass through solid objects (-1/2)". My Desolid now turns on and off as needed, so I am effectively Desolid against all attacks with no need to place Affects Solid World on my Desolid. That seems pretty cheap for 67 points. For 100, my Desolid can be 0 END.[/quote']

Do Triggers work that "fast"? As in, can they actually interrupt the condition that triggers them?

 

Some powers can (otherwise Missile Deflection wouldn't work; nor would defences linked to Absorption); I'm not sure that triggers work that fast, though - wouldn't the Desolid go off after the attack had struck? I suppose you could phrase the trigger condition to be "if I'm about to be struck by an attack"...

 

I think I need to go get that Digital Hero; Trigger has certainly been an advantage I've rarely used to date.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

Do Triggers work that "fast"? As in, can they actually interrupt the condition that triggers them?

 

Some powers can (otherwise Missile Deflection wouldn't work; nor would defences linked to Absorption); I'm not sure that triggers work that fast, though - wouldn't the Desolid go off after the attack had struck? I suppose you could phrase the trigger condition to be "if I'm about to be struck by an attack"...

 

In this case, what about "if I'm targetted by an attack". I'm targetted so I turn Desolid, the attack fires, I return to solid state. Still no drawback. Note that I'm not dealing with Trigger directly, but with the proposed "Shield Framework". In the case of a Trigger, even if the trigger can effectively "abort" to precede the attack, I'd remain desolid afterwards. The proposed Shield Framework makes it Instant.

 

I think I need to go get that Digital Hero; Trigger has certainly been an advantage I've rarely used to date.

 

There's very little in the article, IIRC, that didn't wind up in 5er.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shield Framework

 

OK' date=' I was reading the pool as being the total points available. If they can all be used simultaneously, this becomes a much more powerful ability if one wants multiple attack powers all going off at once.[/quote']

Possibly. However, it is no more powerful than linking powers together.

 

Most of that article is in 5er. Only the replacement for Damage Shield missed the cut. For example' date=' a 10" teleport that has one defined condition (+1/4) that takes no time (+1/4) and resets itself immediately (+1/2) would cost 20 x 2 = 40 points. That's built entirely with material available from 5er.[/quote']

I've stated this before, but there is no reason for you or anyone else to remember.

 

I don't have 5th Edition Revised.

If they included the expansion rules into Revised and thus made them official, great!

 

I would have preferred that the Damage Shield option for Trigger had been included as an official option.

 

While not published' date=' building a damage shield construct using Trigger would seem fairly easy using the tools within 5er.[/quote']

Sounds good to me.

 

So' date=' for 40 points, I buy the framework pool. For another 27, I buy "Desolid, triggered when attacked, cannot pass through solid objects (-1/2)". My Desolid now turns on and off as needed, so I am effectively Desolid against all attacks with no need to place Affects Solid World on my Desolid. That seems pretty cheap for 67 points. For 100, my Desolid can be 0 END.[/quote']

Desolid Persistent 80 Points, 10 STR Affects Solid World (Less than 100 Points)

Both of these are unbalancing, but technically legal. But this is beside the point.

 

Defensive powers would not activate until after the condition has been met. Personally I wouldn't allow a condition to be defined that would allow defensive powers to activate before an attack, but the GM could allow it if they wanted. So you example above would not be legit for my games using this mechanic.

 

But I spend no END unless I'm attacked' date=' so there's a tradeoff. If it's problematic, 0 END is a +1/2 advantage.[/quote']

Yes, stacking advantages can make this abusive. Stacking advantages onto the current Damage Shield may also make it abusive.

 

I think a framework is not the best approach for even attack powers' date=' as there is no reason for the cost of adding a second or third damage shield to be less than the cost of the first. I think there are other, better ways to design the same effect using the tools in 5er. These can be as simple as the present construct, but not requiring Continuous and/or allowing No Range on powers that were otherwise ranged, or using Trigger instead of Continuous to create this ability.[/quote']

This is excellent point considering that the expanded Trigger rules have been made official.

 

I'll let this concept drop in favor of the Damage Shield using the expanded Trigger rules.

 

- Christopher Mullins