New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

I'll have new write up based on discussion soon. But until then, I'm curious as to your take on what I've been thinking.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

So what does Danger Sense give the player that SFX doesn't already give the character?

 

It does it before the attack goes off: it's "precognative" in a sense, not fast enough to let you do anything other than get full DCV, but fast. That's why it's not really worth that many points... it doesn't really do all that much. But it's worth some, because it can foil ambushes.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

It does it before the attack goes off: it's "precognative" in a sense' date=' not fast enough to let you do anything other than get full DCV, but fast. That's why it's not really worth that many points... it doesn't really do all that much. But it's worth some, because it can foil ambushes.[/quote']

So how is this different than Combat Awareness?

 

Combat Awareness when successful prevents Surprise outright, which is what essentially you are describing I think.

 

Wouldn't Danger Sense just be a modified form of Combat Awareness then?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

No, Combat Sense lets you fight while blind, Danger Sense warns you of an ambush. They are sort of related, but I think they are distinct enough. Unless you're referring to a talent or ability in a sourcebook I don't have.

[Netzilla]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

Combat Sense only works in HtH combat. Combat Sense also can be used to find targets that haven't made any attacks at all.

 

Also, don't forget that the current version of Danger Sense can provide targeting information if you make your roll by half. So, normally Danger Sense only provides enough info to prevent being Surprised (and thus 1/2 DCV) but doesn't tell you exactly what the danger is or where it's coming from. However, if you make your roll by half, you get the actual origin and type of danger and can launch an attack at full OCV (5ER 89).

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

Also, don't forget that the current version of Danger Sense can provide targeting information if you make your roll by half.

 

While that's true, and I almost wrote about it in the bit on targeting senses, I realized that you have to perceive the danger with a targeting sense to begin with in order for you to be able to target them. So the danger sense isn't actually providing any information you couldn't otherwise get, it just tells you in advance so you can react to an ambush or surprise attack (or a trap, etc).

 

In other words, Danger Sense isn't targeting, it's informative to your targeting senses.

[Netzilla]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

While that's true, and I almost wrote about it in the bit on targeting senses, I realized that you have to perceive the danger with a targeting sense to begin with in order for you to be able to target them. So the danger sense isn't actually providing any information you couldn't otherwise get, it just tells you in advance so you can react to an ambush or surprise attack (or a trap, etc).

 

In other words, Danger Sense isn't targeting, it's informative to your targeting senses.

 

Well, it's a little more complicated than that but the general gist of the above is true. The main differences are that if you look at the write-up on page 89 it is built with the Targeting modifier but also has a "limitation" (Detectable by Normal Human Senses). Also, keep in mind the 3rd paragraph of the 2nd column on pg 88 that states that Danger Sense works even if the character's other senses are 'blinded' and SFX might grant it a bit of an "extrasensory effect". Now, weather this means that the ability is still targeting while 'blinded' is a bit vague but I suspect that the end intent is as you outline above and at least partly depends on SFX.

 

Also, even if your targeting senses are 'blind' to the source of the attack, you'll still get the chance to make a preemptive attack if you make the roll by half (assuming you have an available action). You'll have to deal with the appropriate OCV penalties (as outlined on pg 349), but I'd wave the requirement for a non-targeting sense roll due to making the Danger Sense roll by half.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

That's where I think shifting Danger Sense into the enhanced senses would clarify things a bit. If you get sight based danger sense by default and can build the other senses in, you know exactly how and when it works.

[Netzilla]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

That's where I think shifting Danger Sense into the enhanced senses would clarify things a bit. If you get sight based danger sense by default and can build the other senses in' date=' you know exactly how and when it works.[/quote']

 

Sure, that's why I originally made the proposal when Bob Greenwade brought up the issue (link). I just wanted to clarify the Danger Sense/Combat Sense differences. Also we need to be careful that Danger Sense, while making DS more clearly defined, doesn't lose any of it's core functionality in the process. With that in mind, I think getting the opportunity to attack on a 1/2 roll is more fundamental than weather Danger Sense specifically counts as Targeting.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

I agree, the main concern I have right now is that my proposal costs too much for what it gives :/

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

Danger Sense (Enhanced Sense)

Danger sense allows a character to sense immediate danger to their self. This allows the character to have their full DCV vs the danger. What constitutes danger to the character is left for the player and gm to work out. Danger Sense is a simulated sense in that the player must specify what senses that acts as a conduit through which the character will detect danger.

 

The player can expand Danger Sense to include detecting danger to others within their perception for an additional cost.

 

If the point-of-origin of the danger is imperceivable then the character is unaware and normal penalties apply.

 

The player can expand the range of detecting the danger with an advantage. The range is doubled for each level of advantage purchased. This does not affect the standard sense range (sight, hearing, and so forth), it just allows the detection of danger based on range of the sense being used.

 

All other Sense modifiers may be applied to Danger Sense normally.

 

Costs

 

Non-Targeting Sense (Self): 3 Points

Targeting Sense (Self): 5 Points

Non-Targeting Sense Group (Self): 5 Points

Targeting Sense Group (Self): 10 Points

 

Non-Targeting Sense (Self & Others): 5 Points

Targeting Sense (Self & Others): 10 Points

Non-Targeting Sense Group (Self & Others): 10 Points

Targeting Sense Group (Self & Others): 15 Points

 

Modifiers

 

Increased Detection Range: +1/4 Per 2x Range (Based on best sense for sensing danger)

 

First Draft: CTaylor - Let me know what needs to be changed.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

The costs are a bit high, I think. At present a 14-, out of combat danger sense for yourself (that's an almost certain skill roll) is 18 points. That's not too bad for what you get, it doesn't do that much, so it shouldnt cost that much.

 

Range, I would think, would be based on perception with usual perception modifiers, so being better at range would just be telescopic.

 

I still don't think the targeting senses matter in this context, you aren't using Danger Sense to target with, you're using Danger Sense to inform your targeting senses of the existence of a target.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

The costs are a bit high' date=' I think. At present a 14-, out of combat danger sense for yourself (that's an almost certain skill roll) is 18 points. That's not too bad for what you get, it doesn't [i']do[/i] that much, so it shouldn't cost that much.

What do you think the minimum cost should be?

What do you think the maximum cost should be?

 

Range' date=' I would think, would be based on perception with usual perception modifiers, so being better at range would just be telescopic.[/quote']

Telescopic would seem to imply that when you are viewing something using telescopic vision, you lose some peripheral.

 

Perhaps you meant sheer increased perception bonuses. That would allow seeing further without affecting peripheral range.

 

With the latter, I could see dropping the Range modifier.

 

I still don't think the targeting senses matter in this context' date=' you aren't using Danger Sense to target with, you're using Danger Sense to inform your targeting senses of the existence of a target.[/quote']

Are suggesting that Smelling Danger Sense is just as valuable as Sight Danger Sense?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

What do you think the minimum cost should be?

What do you think the maximum cost should be?

 

I don't know. That's why I'm a bit troubled with this concept. It can't be very expensive at all: to simulate the present danger sense you'd use 360 perception and either buy it for all your senses or something like N-Ray so that it perceives things separately. That's 5 extra points on top of the base cost for the 360, and few people even have N-Ray. Even when you put a limitation on the N-Ray of "dangers you can perceive with your senses" that's going to be 5 points or so. Buying Danger Sense for all 5 senses would be pretty expensive unless you make the additional sense groups very cheap indeed.

 

So maybe it should work by default on all your senses, then you pay for each additional sense you buy? In other words:

Danger Sense costs 5 points for self only, 10 points for anyone in your sense radius (the area you make your perception roll for), and works for all your five normal senses. For 3 points more, you add a single sense, and for 5 you add a sense group.

 

That makes Spiderman's Danger Sense I built above a bit cheaper: N-Ray added is 3 points, then you put 360, the bonus perception and telescopic on it for a cost closer to 30 points than 90.

 

Telescopic would seem to imply that when you are viewing something using telescopic vision, you lose some peripheral.

 

That's a flaw with the name, not the effect. Telescopic doesn't make you zoom in or see things through a tube, it just means you ignore range modifiers for perception up to the amount the bonus was bought by. Eagles have telescopic vision: they see a long ways without difficulty, but they don't lose any peripheral sense in the process

 

Are suggesting that Smelling Danger Sense is just as valuable as Sight Danger Sense?

 

In theory, although the cost difference in this case would be based on sense utility more than targeting. It's not the lack of targeting that might make smell based danger sense less useful, it's the lack of information your sense of smell gives you that leads to noticing danger.

 

Here's what I mean: seeing the guy with a rifle is a lot easier than smelling his cologne for human beings. We just aren't very perceptive with our sense of smell. Even if you somehow made your sense of smell targeting, that's not going to increase your ability to find things with it any more.

 

So I don't think the targeting/untargeting sense distinction really matters. And if we fold all the senses into the base danger sense by default, then it is less of an issue in any case.

[CTaylor]

Re: New Mechanic: Danger Sense Modifier

 

I hope this gets picked up for 6th edition, or at least looked at.