To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

[Sean Waters]

So, I've been thinking about killing attacks (OK, normal attacks too I suppose, if less so) and the interaction with Body (the characteristic).

 

When a character takes Body damage, nothing happens in the basic rules, other than we move a counter that indicates two things: when we lose all our starting Body we start losing 1 more Body per turn until stabilised AND when we reach negative starting Body we die.

 

There are optional rules for wounding, bleeding, breaking limbs and impairments/disabilities.

 

I like the idea of having dangerous games: I want players to know that their players can get messed up really bad HOWEVER I don't particularly want the characters dying unless it is going to enhance overall enjoyment of the game (and on at least three occasions to my certain knowledge it has).

 

People are pretty fragile. 10 x 1 Body attacks and you are bleeding to death (assuming you have 10 Body, obviously). Even most superheroes rarely take more than about 15 Body: with their defences they don't take Body often, so why bother?

 

Body takes ages to recover, sans special powers and such.

 

At the other end of the scale - well, it is not exactly a scale, but stay with me - we have STUN, and when that is out you fall down helpless or unconscious.

 

STUN comes back really quickly unless you get REALLY battered.

 

I like the complexity of the optional rules for Body damage, but I like the simplicity of the simple count system. I would like characters to be able to take a real pasting and survive it: Body damage is a bit too predictable.

 

So, I was thinking today, as I supped a pint of Forest Gold, in a pleasant pub in the New Forest: is there not a better way?

 

I don't know - but this is what I came up with.

 

WHEN you take Body damage from an outside source (NOT because of bleeding or deterioration, which always do Body damage as indicated, but see below), roll 1d6.

 

1-2 Take Body damage

3-4 Take Bleeding 'damage'

5-6 Take Impairment 'damage'

 

Body damage is what we do now - reduce your Body by that amount. Carry on.

 

Bleeding damage works differently. You take no immediate damage but you bleed that much PS12, unless you can get yourself stabilised. A lot of injuries kill quickly but not instantly. You bleed that much EVERY PS 12 until you are stabilised.

 

Impairment damage works differently again. You take damage to something other than BODY.

 

Roll 1d6 (list for illustration purposes)

1 Lose 5 points of STR

2 Lose 2 points of DEX

3 Lose 3 points of CON

4 Lose 5 points of INT

5 Lose 1" from all movement rates (minimum 1" 'crawl')

6 Lose 5 points of STUN

 

This should make characters live longer, for starters: they are only taking the damage immediately 1 time in 3, so it is like having 3 times more Body. Things are still deadly, they will still want to avoid taking Body, but you don't have to be quite so shy about dishing it out to them.

 

HEALING

 

Keep track of every injury because injuries heal simulaneously in most cases. I'm talking about healing in terms of Body recovered, but it also applies to impairment damage: 1 Body recovered = 5 STR recovered, for example. We'll deal with bleeding seperately.

 

1 point Body injuries heal in 1 hour.

Each extra point moves the time 1 point up the time chart, so:

2 point Body injuries heal in 6 hours

3 point Body injuries heal in 1 day

4 point Body injuries heal in 1 week

5 point Body injuries heal in 1 month

etc

 

Every 4 points of REC reduce the healing times by 1 point on the time chart, so a normal human with 4 REC can heal a 1 point Body wound in 20 minutes. That does not necessarily mean that there is not some sort of scar or somesuch, but after that time, but, after that amount of time has passed, the wound does not cause further impairment or threaten your life.

 

You have to heal wounds 1 point at a time, so a 3 point wound heals to a 2 point wound in a base time of 1 day, then requires another 6 hours to become a 1 point wound etc.

 

Appropriate medical care can also speed healing: a successful paramedic roll, made at a penalty equal to the size of the wound treated, reduces the healing time by 1 step on the time chart and an additional step for each 2 points the roll is made by SO LONG AS the medical care is administered throughout the recovery time (if not, pro-rate it).

 

STOPPING BLEEDING

 

When you take 'bleeding damage' you can make a CON roll at -1 per point of bleeding damage you have just taken. A successful roll will not stop the bleeding but will slow it so you take the damage each minute rather than each turn. Every +2 you make the roll by slows the bleeding by a further step on the time chart. This assumes that you are taking things reaonably easy. If you undertake anything strenuous the GM might rule that your wounds open again, or require further CON rolls (at least at a penalty of the Bleeding Damage, probably more) to check if your wounds re-open. Sniper shooting probably wound not re-open wounds. Judo probably would.

 

The wound that is bleeding heals at exactly the rate wounds do above: if, for instance, a normal human had a 1 point bleeding wound, which would heal in 20 minutes without medical attention, and makes their CON roll by 4 points, they take bleeding damage every 5 minutes, so will only lose 4 Body before the wound closes sufficiently to no longer be life threatening.

 

NB Although bleeding damage does Body, make sure to record the Body damage done by bleeding seerately because it can be healed by simply replentishing the blood loss with a transfusion, completely bypassing the normal healing rules.

 

HEALING POWER

 

Healing is immensely useful against Body injuries, allowing you to heal an amount 'instantly'. Note that if healing a bleeding injury you can heal the bloodloss and wound damage simultaneously, with the right power. Generally healing can heal Body, bleeding or impairment damage (unless the GM rules otherwise) BUT you can apply the variable effect power modifier to heal different types of injury simultaneously: for +1/2 you can heal Body and bleeding or Body and impairment or impairment and bleeding damage simultaneously and for +3/4 you can heal all 3. You can apply that to the regeneration special build if you like.

 

That's the idea. It is a bit more detailed than the basic system but without all the bells and whistles of the options (and without the need to use hit locations). It should allow characters to survive a bit longer, although the bleeding rules are pretty nasty.

 

The other thing I was thinking, for the right game, you could modify the damage distribution to reflect TYPES of attack. For instance you may use the above system for penetrating attacks (bullets, stabbing weapons) but modify things for blugeoning weapons (say war hammers, falling damage) so that, when you roll the 1d6, you do Body on 1-2, bleeding on a 3 and impairment on 4-6, for example.

[Phoenix]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

Hey Sean, you might want to look at the injury mechanics from other game systems. I found the simplicity of the ICON System worked well - basically your BODY would be broken down into 6 roughly equal groups (Healthy, Stunned, Injured, Wounded, Incapacitated, Near Death and then Killed). I would think you could do away with stunned as that is a condition used in existing HERO System mechanics, and 5 roughly equal groups normally works out better in HERO.

 

So let’s use a normal 10 as the example:

10 to 8 = Healthy

7 to 4 = Injured

3 to 1 = Wounded

0 to -3 = Incapacitated

-4 to -6 = Near Death

-7 or less = Dieing (uh, forget that part about 5 groups)

 

for every group you drop by, you star accruing penalties to all rolls and Damage Classes.

 

If you need more details as to how the injury looks/feels/etc. HERO System already has a damage location chart (when used for flavor alone in a Champions Game things become more dynamically entertaining)

[Sean Waters]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

Hey Sean, you might want to look at the injury mechanics from other game systems. I found the simplicity of the ICON System worked well - basically your BODY would be broken down into 6 roughly equal groups (Healthy, Stunned, Injured, Wounded, Incapacitated, Near Death and then Killed). I would think you could do away with stunned as that is a condition used in existing HERO System mechanics, and 5 roughly equal groups normally works out better in HERO.

 

So let’s use a normal 10 as the example:

10 to 8 = Healthy

7 to 4 = Injured

3 to 1 = Wounded

0 to -3 = Incapacitated

-4 to -6 = Near Death

-7 or less = Dieing (uh, forget that part about 5 groups)

 

for every group you drop by, you star accruing penalties to all rolls and Damage Classes.

 

If you need more details as to how the injury looks/feels/etc. HERO System already has a damage location chart (when used for flavor alone in a Champions Game things become more dynamically entertaining)

 

The problem with any damage system is that everyone will have differnt ideas as to what they want it to do. The source material will illustrate one hit kills, characters fighting on despite massive damage, wounds that clearly impair, wounds that clearly don't, wounds that cause slow deterioration and wounds that get better on their own.

 

**sigh**

 

From a RPG PoV, I want a damage system that is not going to mean re-rolling characters eery few minutes but still leaves players anxious to avoid being shot or stabbed. I don't neceessarily want injury to equal some sort of penalty, because once you start accumulating penalties, it gets ever harder to win - but that should be a possibility: better half DEX than dead. Finally, whilst I don't want all wounds to cause deterioration - fromt eh book keeping side of things if nothing else - they system should address it.

 

This is what I came up with. For simplicity sake you can say that all hits on mooks/NPCs simply cause immediate Body damage, but the idea of this system would be to add complexity as simply as possible.

[Blackberry]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

I just say that a PC doesn't die unless the player agrees that the death is dramatically appropriate to the situation. But I also don't use things like random pit traps of death either.

[Sean Waters]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

I don't, when GMing, kill PCs if I can help it, but I don't hold back from death either. I think the players have to accept that they are not the complete masters of their own destiny, and I also believe that if they think that the PC can not die without their consent, or will only die for dramatic purposes, you actually bleed a lot of the drama out of the rest of the game. There has to be some uncertainly, when you enter a dangerous situation, whether you will be coming out of it again. It adds savour.

[Blackberry]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

Certainly, but being laid up for months in the hospital can be just as bad.

 

And if I am to be true to the source material (I play supers), when a superhero actually truly dies, it's a major thing. They don't just twist their ankle and keel over dead, or bring in Dr. Doom only to be dropped in an alley by a random mugger with a knife.

 

I think it would be nteresting to have things like that happen, but not randomly to the protagonists.

 

And besides all that, so much effort and thought and emotion goes into a HERO super that just killing them off because of a random dice roll seems unfair to the player. Are they collaborators in this story or aren't they? If they are, shouldn't they get some say? I don't think they should get a veto vote, but I think they should have a voice.

[Sean Waters]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

Certainly' date=' but being laid up for months in the hospital can be just as bad.[/quote']

 

I agree the healing rules above mean that you can effectively heal from minor Body damage very quickly: even a normal can heal a 1 Body injury (at least tot he point where it no longer impairs or threatens life) in 20 minutes. Bigger wounds take progressively longer, of course, but the system does allow you to recover sufficiently to get back int he fight pretty quickly.

 

And if I am to be true to the source material (I play supers), when a superhero actually truly dies, it's a major thing. They don't just twist their ankle and keel over dead, or bring in Dr. Doom only to be dropped in an alley by a random mugger with a knife.

 

I think it would be nteresting to have things like that happen, but not randomly to the protagonists.

 

And besides all that, so much effort and thought and emotion goes into a HERO super that just killing them off because of a random dice roll seems unfair to the player. Are they collaborators in this story or aren't they? If they are, shouldn't they get some say? I don't think they should get a veto vote, but I think they should have a voice.

 

It is an interesting point, and yes, they ARE collaborators, but still overall editorial control is shared between the GM and the dice. If the GM is in total control, you losse the feeling of danger. The dice have to have a real say. Realistically the GM will never ask a character to roll for twisting their ankle - certainly not if that is likely to kill them and anyone who can bring in Dr Doom is unlikely to have to worry about a mugger in an alley in Hero. Realistically life is only in danger for most characters in dramatic situations anyway. It is only a pretty major supervillain (or perhaps a tank) that could end a Hero's career at the roll of a die...

[prestidigitator]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

I like it, at least as an optional system for some games. Here's another one I have toyed with trying at some point:

 

1. 
    
   
2. Each Hit Location has its own Body count except the Head and Vitals, which use the character's main Body score. Maybe combine it into limbs instead of each little hit location, so we wouldn't differentiate between hands and arms, you'd just have a Body for the left arm and a Body for the right arm, and maybe one for the trunk (shoulders, chest and stomach).
    
   
3. Damage to the Hit Location subtracts ONLY from THAT Hit Location's Body, but bleeding (which should now do full Normal Damage, not just Stun Only) from ALL Hit Locations takes off the character's main Body count.
    
   
4. Drop the Body multiplier for the Hit Locations. It's not needed anymore since damage to each location doesn't contribute to the main Body count.
    
   
5. Impairment and Disablement are no longer applied based on the Body done by EACH attack; instead they go off the CUMULATIVE amount of damage done to each Hit Location. If this becomes too drastic, the GM might consider making the Impairment/Disablement effects more specific to the location, and only apply when that location might come into play.
    
   
6. Heal either by separate wound, or just by separate location with a Body count.
    
   
7. Optional, but recommended: Each Hit Location can have a fraction of the main Body attribute for its maximum Body, since it may not make sense that an arm can take as much beating as a leg or the chest. I haven't worked out specifics myself yet. Maybe base it on the normal Body Multiplier for the Hit Location. Maybe come up with a custom chart, like 1/2 for each arm and leg, 2/3 for chest, etc.
    
   

[prestidigitator]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

I really like the use of the Time Chart for healing, by the way. That feels even more "Hero" than the normal healing system does. It is kind of unfortunate that it requires tracking each wound separately; maybe we could come up with a variant to use when only tracking overall damage too.

 

(You just demand too much rep Sean. Or I've been lazy about sharing it around lately. Heh heh.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

I like it, at least as an optional system for some games. Here's another one I have toyed with trying at some point:

 

1. 
    
   
2. Each Hit Location has its own Body count except the Head and Vitals, which use the character's main Body score. Maybe combine it into limbs instead of each little hit location, so we wouldn't differentiate between hands and arms, you'd just have a Body for the left arm and a Body for the right arm, and maybe one for the trunk (shoulders, chest and stomach).
    
   
3. Damage to the Hit Location subtracts ONLY from THAT Hit Location's Body, but bleeding (which should now do full Normal Damage, not just Stun Only) from ALL Hit Locations takes off the character's main Body count.
    
   
4. Drop the Body multiplier for the Hit Locations. It's not needed anymore since damage to each location doesn't contribute to the main Body count.
    
   
5. Impairment and Disablement are no longer applied based on the Body done by EACH attack; instead they go off the CUMULATIVE amount of damage done to each Hit Location. If this becomes too drastic, the GM might consider making the Impairment/Disablement effects more specific to the location, and only apply when that location might come into play.
    
   
6. Heal either by separate wound, or just by separate location with a Body count.
    
   
7. Optional, but recommended: Each Hit Location can have a fraction of the main Body attribute for its maximum Body, since it may not make sense that an arm can take as much beating as a leg or the chest. I haven't worked out specifics myself yet. Maybe base it on the normal Body Multiplier for the Hit Location. Maybe come up with a custom chart, like 1/2 for each arm and leg, 2/3 for chest, etc.
    
   

 

I like it. The differentiation of Body by location and bleeding is nice. It's like 'Blood' has a Body score, a sort of seperate location that can only be accessed through any of the others

 

I'd go for each arm, each leg has BODY/2 and the head and the vitals have Body/3 (but the Head also has 1 resistant PD: skull has to be good for something . The torso has full Body. Each location is functionally useless when you reach that point and destroyed when you reach twice that point.

[Blackberry]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

But yeah, this system heals a bit fast for most games, I would think. Or am I reading it wrong?

[DARKHORN]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

I have found that my players get along better without slowing the game down with extra combat rules. If they want hit location and other modifiers, they are responsible for having that info at their ready. Normally there are 6 players (who are young) at the table so this avenue for combat is quite nice: keep it simple! Anyways the house rule is, "Live and die by the dice!" Sure there is a time for dramatic license but when they know that I don't pull punches, it just seems to make them get into it a lot more and it IS an emotional moment when a character falls, but it is more emotional when they succeed! Yes this path does have the possibility of seriously altering the game...man it is cool!

 

I have been referee in our rpg community for over 20 years and having played with classmates and children alike, it has been my experience that too many rules can make for unfun....though I have not been playing with adults in the last decade or two so please excuse me if I don't fully understand how a game functions with adults who have their character in good order. That is an alien realm for me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

But yeah' date=' this system heals a bit fast for most games, I would think. Or am I reading it wrong?[/quote']

 

Minor wounds heal very quickly, or, to be more accurate, they get to a point where they no longer cause problems that have an in-game effect: you will still have scabs and scar tissue and such, but a minor cut is unlikely to open up or contribute to a characteristic reduction or even 'cumulative death'.

 

Larger wounds take much longer, potentially longer than the current system, although for that kind of wound you'd need to loose most of your Body in a single hit.

 

If you feel that this is too unrealistic, and I accept that a large part of the thinking is getting characters who have been 'nickel and dimed' back on their feet asap, then start at a higher point on the time chart and perhaps cap the maximum recovery time at a season.

[Sean Waters]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

I have found that my players get along better without slowing the game down with extra combat rules. If they want hit location and other modifiers, they are responsible for having that info at their ready. Normally there are 6 players (who are young) at the table so this avenue for combat is quite nice: keep it simple! Anyways the house rule is, "Live and die by the dice!" Sure there is a time for dramatic license but when they know that I don't pull punches, it just seems to make them get into it a lot more and it IS an emotional moment when a character falls, but it is more emotional when they succeed! Yes this path does have the possibility of seriously altering the game...man it is cool!

 

I have been referee in our rpg community for over 20 years and having played with classmates and children alike, it has been my experience that too many rules can make for unfun....though I have not been playing with adults in the last decade or two so please excuse me if I don't fully understand how a game functions with adults who have their character in good order. That is an alien realm for me.

 

I think that this is vital: rules are fine and funly but you have to know what your audience likes

 

A good DM needs fewer rules anyway because they tend to make the experience more realistic just by GMing style.

 

The ideal set of rules perfectly balances complex results with straightforward (and quick) mechanics. The perfect GM doesn't need rules at all, the rest of us need a little help

[Sean Waters]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

I really like the use of the Time Chart for healing, by the way. That feels even more "Hero" than the normal healing system does. It is kind of unfortunate that it requires tracking each wound separately; maybe we could come up with a variant to use when only tracking overall damage too.

 

......................

 

Hmm. I'll have to think about that one. There are ways...

 

I suppose you SHOULD take into account the total BODY: getting beaten to within an inch of your like should take the same time to heal if you are Body 5 or Body 20. OK. Perhaps we use the character's Body total as the base healing time...

 

Start with a base healing time of 1 day for 1 Body. Each point of Body damage total bumps the healing time up one point on the time chart. THEN every 5 points of Body total the character has bumps it down one (people with high Body heal faster).

 

Recovery has to play a part too: every 5 points bumps healing down the time chart.

 

You then have to pro rate the healing: a 4 Body wound that should heal in a month would heal at 3 points a week.

 

That's just plucked out of the air. Let's see...

 

That means Base time + (Body damage - (Body/5+REC/5)) steps.

 

A character has 12 Body and 8 REC. He takes a total of 6 Body in damage.

 

Base 1 day with (6-(2+2))= 2 bumps = 1 month

6 Body = 6 bumps up the time chart =25 years

12 Body = 2 bumps down = 1 year

8 REC = 2 bumps down = 1 month

 

Of course if the character had taken 12 Body, the maximum (I wouldn't count negative Body to increase the Body count) then we's be up to 5 centuries to heal I'm thinking a cap at, perhaps 1 season.

 

At present a character who has taken 6 Body would recover 8 Body a month, so would be fine in about 3 weeks. As it happens that works out nicely in this case: similar sort of result. 8 Body a month would be 1 Body every 3 to 4 days. The system I present here would mean that small wounds would heal faster than under the current system, major wounds slower.

 

You can modify this a bit with hospital care. Bump down the chart one point for hospial care.

 

Might need a bit of tinkering....

[prestidigitator]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

How about something a little simpler? Recovery time in the normal system is 1 Body in 30/Rec days. What if we made that the base time for when your current Body count (call it is below 1/3 Body. Then when B is between 1/3 Body and 2/3 Body, we bump it down on the Time Chart (30/Rec hours), and when B is between 2/3 Body and Body, we bump it down one more level (6/Rec hours, or 360/Rec minutes). Optionally (for "realism" and drawn out stories where we don't mind imagined down-time between adventures) we could bump it UP a level on the Time Chart (30/Rec weeks) when B is less than zero.

[Sean Waters]

Re: To Kill, or just To Mess Up Real Bad...?

 

How about something a little simpler? Recovery time in the normal system is 1 Body in 30/Rec days. What if we made that the base time for when your current Body count (call it is below 1/3 Body. Then when B is between 1/3 Body and 2/3 Body' date=' we bump it down on the Time Chart (30/Rec hours), and when B is between 2/3 Body and Body, we bump it down one more level (6/Rec hours, or 360/Rec minutes). Optionally (for "realism" and drawn out stories where we don't mind imagined down-time between adventures) we could bump it UP a level on the Time Chart (30/Rec weeks) when B is less than zero.[/quote']

 

You see, this is why it is called a discussion board: nice idea