Suggested DCV cap at Heroic level - includes MA/maneuvers?

[StormGathering]

Hello all,

 

I was looking at the chart in the HERO 5th revised main book that states recommended guidelines for characteristic, AP, and CV caps, etc, and I had a question about what exactly was included under those when it comes to OCV and DCV.

 

At the Standard Heroic level, for example, it is pretty easy to build a character with a monstrous DCV just by purchasing powers and stats that are reasonable for the level, but when stacked combine to nearly-unhittable levels. For example, an extremely dexterous but otherwise undistinguished hero--say, a thief or rogue type--with 18 DEX would have a base CV of 6 or so, but with a martial arts dodge maneuver per UMA (+5 DCV) and a medium/large shield per the main rulebook (+2/+3 CV) the character's DCV would climb to a frightening 13/14. At that point, you'd almost need to build characters specifically geared to hit him/her. And that is before taking into account any defensive Combat Skill Levels the character might have.

 

So I am wondering if those caps are meant to include maneuvers too, or just how people use those guidelines. It seems to me like a variety of pretty reasonable character concepts (high dex, trained fighter so has martial arts dodge, uses a shield sometimes, has a combat skill level or two) can combine in pretty scary ways. Would you consider my example of the dodge/shield/dex combo to be abusive in your campaign? Would mooks just improve their OCV, or start carrying hand grenades?

 

Sorry if this seems a bit dense. I've never run a HERO campaign and was trying to figure out a good level for "mooks" versus, say, 100-150 pt heroes. I wanted to run one soon, and want the balance level to be okay... but I don't want to have lots of fights where the PCs can only be hit on a 3. But I don't want to cripple the high-dex character either.

 

(I suppose this goes for OCV too... it seems like a high dex type with a few CSLs and a martial arts maneuver or two can really kick butt on those to-hit rolls, relative to their general power level, to the point where the bricks might be wondering what on earth just happened.) At any rate, thank you for reading.

[Utech]

Re: Suggested DCV cap at Heroic level - includes MA/maneuvers?

 

With your campaign guidelines you're balancing two different things that will help you determine how long combat lasts and the way combat "looks". Those things are:

 

1) How often people get hit.

When DCV is often much higher than OCV in your game, combat will take a long time and there will be little gore. Combatants will have to learn to take advantage of every trick in the book to improve their chances to hit -- teamwork, area effect attacks, the environment, trickery, surprise, etc. Called shots will be rare. Your players will learn that in straight up fights they will roll to hit many times and hope to get lucky.

 

When DCV is often about equal to OCV, combat will be much shorter and there will be more gore. Combatants may look for ways to improve their OCV, but will have less reason to do so unless they want to make a called shot. Your players will learn that they've got roughly a 50% chance to hit most enemies and will plan accordingly.

 

When DCV is often lower than OCV, combat will be quite short and extremely nasty. Combatants will look to hit first and hit hard. Combatants will look for ways to improve their DCV -- or become unhittable -- by Dodging, Diving for Cover, etc. Your players will learn to watch their backs and will probably stock up on healing potions and look for really good armor.

Which brings us to...

 

2) How much punishment people can take.

When defenses are high (include STUN, BODY, CON, and REC into your thinking about defenses), combats will take a long time and there will be little gore. Combatants will think far less about protecting themselves and will happily wade into danger. Called shots will become very important -- perhaps the only way to take down many enemies! Characters will learn little fear of their opponents and look for ways to add more punch to their attacks.

 

When defenses allow some damage to leak through on an average hit, combats will be shorter, bloodier, and more tactical. Combatants will learn to concentrate fire on a target to take it out of the picture and will be wary of having the tables turned. Called shots will often be a good idea -- and quite powerful.

 

When defenses are low, combats will be quick, brutal, and ugly. Combatants will learn to hit as many foes as possible as quickly as possible. Sweep and Rapid Fire become very popular. Speed (the characteristic) becomes essential. Characters will stock up on healing potions and look for ways to become unhittable...

In summary, balancing OCV/DCV and choosing average defenses will greatly impact the flavor of your game. How brutal do you want your game to be? How tactical? Is it about the combat skill of each combatant? Is it about the weapons and armor? How much time do you want to spend on combat each time you play? Do you want your PCs to feel unstoppable or quake in their boots or something in between?

 

You'll want to make your choices clear to your players and stay open to their thoughts. It is easy to have confusion at the outset about what sort of game you're running. If you imagine high DCV and low defenses and a player imagines low DCV and high defenses, you'll both be disappointed and confused.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suggested DCV cap at Heroic level - includes MA/maneuvers?

 

Don't worry about dodging making people unhittable:

 

1. They can still be caught by AoE attacks and you can often improvise AoE attacks even in a low magic fantasy campaign - smash a barrel of oil at their feet and they are going to get covered - use a table to shove them against a wall, etc.

 

2. When dodging they can not do much else, so a character who does nothing but dodge is good at running away or prolonging combats but is never going to win one.

 

Having said that, it is worth keeping an eye on CV levels but I'd just factor in DEX, levels and offensive MA maneouvers.

 

Worth looking at a swashbuckling type film sometimes - lots of blows, few, if any, hits. Usually when the sword strikes home that is the end of the fight. In Hero terms that can be both characters having a higher DCV than OCV (or one or both using mainly defensive manoeuvers).

 

Ultimately it depends on the flavour you are after.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Suggested DCV cap at Heroic level - includes MA/maneuvers?

 

Like Sean said if someone is dodging all the time they are never going to be making an attack so that tends to balance itself out over the long run. Also keep in mind that if you are using Heroic-level points like 75-75 an 18 DEX and Martial Dodge will account for 28 or 34 character points (depending on if you are starting everyone with a base of 8 or a base of 10 points per characteristic) out of 150 total. That’s a large percentage of their total and will hinder them in other areas.