Throwing distance

[Crypt]

As i was not totally satisfied by the official throwing distance rules (H5ER & Ultimate Brick) nor at 100% by the Kim's version here is my own =>

 

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/throw.php

 

It's heavily based on the Kim's version but instead of using a Combat and a Non-combat column i use only one column.(which is equals to the Kim's Non-combat column divided by 4.)

The final distance is modified by the velocity factor of the thrower so you only need to use the normal Combat/Non-Combat rules instead of multiple throwing columns.

 

 

EDIT: CORRECTIONS:

 

Thrown Object Velocity Factor: TVF = (STR-MASS) / 5

Throw Range: 1/4 of the distance from the RMod equals to (2xTVF) - 6

(note: no need to compute it in-game, this is in the table.)

If the character is moving add his own (Velocity Factor/2) X 5 to the (Str-Mass) column

 

Ex. A STR 15, SPD 3, 6"X2 character throw a 1kg rock (STR-22) :

Without moving: we find at the 37 line (15+22) = 21"

Moving at combat speed (6X3=18"/turn = VF 1) at line 39 (37+(1/2X5)) = 28"

Moving at non-combat speed (6X2X3=36"/turn = VF 3) at line 44 (37+(3/2X5)) = 56"

 

A STR 16 character, SPD 2, 6" X2 throwing a 7kg (STR-9) weight :Moving at non-combat speed (6X2X2=24"/turn = VF 2) at line 30 (16+9+(2/2X5)) = 8"

 

A STR 13 character, SPD 2, 6" X2 throwing a 0.8kg (STR-25) ball :Moving at non-combat speed (6X2X2=24"/turn = VF 2) at line 43 (13+25+(2/2X5)) = 48"

 

A STR 15 character, SPD 3, 6" X2 throwing a 0.8kg (STR-25) ball :Moving at non-combat speed (6X2X3=36"/turn = VF 3) at line 47 (15+25+(3/2X5)) = 84"

[Sean Waters]

Re: Throwing distance

 

You and your calculations are a source of wonder

 

Leaving aside the apparent complexity which may put some off, this is not the sort of thing you can sort out without tables to hand.

 

Looking at the examples it is worrying that someone in the normal human ballpark can throw a 1kg rock 112" (nearly 1/4 of a km) even with a running start.

 

Factoring in DEX in the second example (a useful refinement) you give a VF of 4 = 1.77"

 

I'm not sure that is enough for someone who is strong and well above average DEX: less than 4m doesn't seem enough.

 

Two things:

 

1. Looking down the table, line 22 seems to be VF1 - is the example right?

 

2. How would it look if someone with 'throwing' as a skill could add to their effective STR and/or DEX?

[Crypt]

Re: Throwing distance

 

 

Two things:

 

1. Looking down the table, line 22 seems to be VF1 - is the example right?

 

i think you get the older version, i've made some corrections a few minutes ago. (i was working on a previous expansion of Kim's rules and i forgotten to made some changes)

 

I'm hesitating between two versions:

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/throw.php

and

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/throw2.php

The problem is that the best reference is, imo, world records. But in the other hand it's hard to define, for instance, if the rotating movement of a weight thrower is to be seen as a full non-combat mvmt or something in between. (and of course there is aerodynamic...)

 

2. How would it look if someone with 'throwing' as a skill could add to their effective STR and/or DEX?

 

I don't know. I must say i'd prefer a limited part of STR (STR+x (only for throwing)) or DEX instead of a throwing skill.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Throwing distance

 

The 'advantage' of a skill rather than a limited characteristic is variable results - you don't always throw the same distance.

 

Now as to world records, a 7kg shot (-8STR?) can go about 23m. I strongly suspect that running and flinging it would get it no further - it is not shaped right, like a javelin.

 

In fact it may well be that velocity factor is a minor consideration for a number of objects. I suspect, from years of throwing stones at the sea, that:

 

1. Any throwing skill is probably more of a matter of getting your personal momentum and the throw synchronised (so maybe a skill roll limits the amount of VF you can add for your own velocity?) AND

 

2. Running beforehand doesn't (with stones at least) make them go 2-4 times further.

[Crypt]

Re: Throwing distance

 

hmmm... that's worth considering...

 

i'll make some research. If you find something on your own side, plz tell us.

[Crypt]

Re: Throwing distance

 

a stupid mistake from me => (VF/2)X5 should be added, not VFX5

[Sean Waters]

Re: Throwing distance

 

a stupid mistake from me => (VF/2)X5 should be added' date=' not VFX5[/quote']

 

 

That will certainly calm down the contribution for a running start

[Sean Waters]

Re: Throwing distance

 

Also if DEX is a limiter on how far you can throw, that should have an effect on damage as you are not able, in all cases, to apply maximum STR.

 

Shall I just shut up?

[Crypt]

Re: Throwing distance

 

Also if DEX is a limiter on how far you can throw, that should have an effect on damage as you are not able, in all cases, to apply maximum STR.

 

Shall I just shut up?

 

no no the DEX limiter comes from John Kim.

[Crypt]

Re: Throwing distance

 

EDIT: correction, see the first post.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Throwing distance

 

The advantage of the DEX limiter is this:

 

A character can be immensely strong but slow: even though they have the raw power they do not move fast enough to throw the thing as far as they could, so whether they throw 100kg or 10000 they throw roughly the same distance.

 

I think another mechanism might be needed to simulate air resistance and gravity

 

The way to do it (if you had the physics to hand) would be work out how HIGH you could throw an object THEN translate that, possibly via a skill roll, to a distance based on an 'optimum' throw (about 40 degrees IIRC).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Throwing distance

 

I have two objections to basing maximum throwing distance on Dex at all:

 

1. In terms of game mechanics, Dex already has enough effect and will determine whether you can judge distance to a target and be accurate enough to hit anyway.
   
2. We use Str alone for HTH damage, which for strikes (as opposed to squeezing) depends almost entirely on the speed with which you can propel your limb, not how much static force you can apply. That's very much the same as maximum throwing range; although you have to use an optimum angle for the trajectory, that's really not hard to do with a tiny bit of practice, and I think we should be able to assume that a hero in an adventure can achieve that pretty easily. If you really wanted to add in the factor of being able to account for wind speed and aerodynamics and such, you could base it on Int instead of Dex, but I have the feeling that's not going to go over well.
   

[prestidigitator]

Re: Throwing distance

 

The advantage of the DEX limiter is this:

 

A character can be immensely strong but slow: even though they have the raw power they do not move fast enough to throw the thing as far as they could, so whether they throw 100kg or 10000 they throw roughly the same distance.

As I stated above, I'm not sure that is necessary or desirable, but I think if you really wanted to simulate it, a small Physical Limitation would probably suffice, and it might cover a broader spectrum than just throwing distance, probably factoring into leaping distance and possibly even Strike damage as well (better make the character's shtick grabbing and squeezing or something).

 

I think another mechanism might be needed to simulate air resistance and gravity

 

The way to do it (if you had the physics to hand) would be work out how HIGH you could throw an object THEN translate that, possibly via a skill roll, to a distance based on an 'optimum' throw (about 40 degrees IIRC).

Yeah. 45 degrees (pi/4). Drag can change that somewhat, but it starts getting pretty complex when you try to factor that in, so it is often best (and reasonably accurate for all but small, fast moving projectiles) to ignore it.

 

Ideally, maximum range in a particular constant gravitational field is a pure function of the starting velocity, since the angle that will achieve greatest distance is fixed. In fact, it is equal to the velocity squared over the acceleration of gravity (v^2/g). Note also that the kinetic energy (at the speeds we are talking about) is proportional to the velocity squared, and the amount of damage done to a target is going to be roughly proportional to the amount of kinetic energy of the projectile. So I think it makes sense to scale the range in the same manner as we scale the amount of environmental damage. (Now commence the old argument of destroying the world with an Nd6 punch. )

 

For more info see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajectory

[Crypt]

Re: Throwing distance

 

The advantage of the DEX limiter is this:

 

A character can be immensely strong but slow: even though they have the raw power they do not move fast enough to throw the thing as far as they could, so whether they throw 100kg or 10000 they throw roughly the same distance.

I think another mechanism might be needed to simulate air resistance and gravity

 

 

 

IMHO, if we need a DEX limiter, it would be nicer to say ="use the lower of DEX or STR" instead of "maximum VF= DEX/3"

But i agree with Presty, DEX is potent enough.

 

 

The way to do it (if you had the physics to hand) would be work out how HIGH you could throw an object THEN translate that, possibly via a skill roll, to a distance based on an 'optimum' throw (about 40 degrees IIRC).

 

 

Actually my goal is to get somewhat "realistic" results for low STR and very high ones for very high STR. (IMHO the official version gives too high low-STR result and too low high-STR ones (i know that's for playability reasons during combat but i don't like the Ultimate Brick "realistic throw" version neither.))

I do not target pure simulation, i just want it to be believable+interesting (imo the interesting part is the distance added from velocity. For instance you may be in a situation where you don't have enough room to get your maximum range. I tend to be more interest in tactics rather than true realism.)

 

 

PS: About slow characters: i don't need the DEX limiter because i use velocity (SPD plays an important part here, so DEX too.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Throwing distance

 

..........................

 

Actually my goal is to get somewhat "realistic" results for low STR and very high ones for very high STR. (IMHO the official version gives too high low-STR result and too low high-STR ones (i know that's for playability reasons during combat but i don't like the Ultimate Brick "realistic throw" version neither.))

I do not target pure simulation, i just want it to be believable+interesting (imo the interesting part is the distance added from velocity. For instance you may be in a situation where you don't have enough room to get your maximum range. I tend to be more interest in tactics rather than true realism.)

 

 

PS: About slow characters: i don't need the DEX limiter because i use velocity (SPD plays an important part here, so DEX too.)

 

SPD only matters to moving throws in your system. Imagine a hydraulic ram that moves at 1 metre per second by can push 50000kg. It is never going to throw something very far, despite very high STR. As presdidigitator says that can be done with a Pys Lim but a lot of peolpe won't think of that: a more automatic system seems better and DEX is not being used to increase the maximum throw, just enable it, which is not so bad..

 

I agree about superheroic throws, in theory.

 

I once changed KB distance to be more comic booky - you calculated KB and then used that figure as the range modifier onth erange table then read across to the range. So, if you took 7" of KB you shot back 33 to 64"! Despite the increased distance the damage was just the same.

 

People were getting knocked through buildings and all over the place. It was great. Then we realised that it was taking several phases to get back to the combat, so we stopped that.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Throwing distance

 

One implication of the statement I made above, which I realize I may not have made very obvious, is that I think both maximum throwing distance and leaping distance should scale exponentially, like lifting force (i.e. +5 Str doubles range). Of course, that'd probably require a lot of reworking and quite a bit of thought about other movement powers and such, so it's not that trivial of a change.

[Crypt]

Re: Throwing distance

 

new modifications made

[Sean Waters]

Re: Throwing distance

 

One implication of the statement I made above' date=' which I realize I may not have made very obvious, is that I think both maximum throwing distance and leaping distance should scale exponentially, like lifting force (i.e. +5 Str doubles range). Of course, that'd probably require a lot of reworking and quite a bit of thought about other movement powers and such, so it's not that trivial of a change.[/quote']

 

That can upset the balance with movement powers, potentially. Perhaps you could define some STR as NCM?

 

If you have 60 STR you could define (at character creation) 10" of leaping (50 STR) and +4xNMC (8x with the base x2) for the other 10 STR.

[Crypt]

Re: Throwing distance

 

is that I think both maximum throwing distance and leaping distance should scale exponentially, like lifting force

 

I am a logarithmic fanatic but in the precise case of leaping if think that it's good it doesn't follow such a scale.

It all depend on the SFX of STR. If it's muscles then it increases the character weight, so leaping cannot be follow the same scale as lifting (*)

If it's not muscles then everything is possible and, as with everything in Hero, the player may buy some leaping levels.

 

The world record of weightlifting is 263 kg but i'm quite sure this doesn't mean this guy would actually leap 2.6 times further than a 10 STR guy.

 

 

(*) But in the other hand maybe leaping could follow a slower logarithmic scale than lifting.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Throwing distance

 

That can upset the balance with movement powers, potentially. Perhaps you could define some STR as NCM?

 

If you have 60 STR you could define (at character creation) 10" of leaping (50 STR) and +4xNMC (8x with the base x2) for the other 10 STR.

 

Hmm. That could be a good possibility. I like that. In fact, perhaps we could define a "Non-Combat Throwing Multiple" as well. Just because you can't hit the side of a barn door at 3km doesn't mean you can't throw the bomb that far out to sea, so who cares if you are 0 OCV and all the Range Modifers and high-Dex you can come up with aren't going to help you?

 

 

I am a logarithmic fanatic but in the precise case of leaping if think that it's good it doesn't follow such a scale.

It all depend on the SFX of STR. If it's muscles then it increases the character weight, so leaping cannot be follow the same scale as lifting (*)

If it's not muscles then everything is possible and, as with everything in Hero, the player may buy some leaping levels.

 

The world record of weightlifting is 263 kg but i'm quite sure this doesn't mean this guy would actually leap 2.6 times further than a 10 STR guy.

 

Yeah. Surprisingly I'm not in favor of leaping being tied to Str, but I also think that HTH damage and other things should be separated. Do you think if that weightlifter punched you it would hurt nearly so badly as if a trained martial artist hit you? But that's another discussion entirely anyway. In practice we all know there are many, "different kinds of strength," but for a gross approximation in a game where "strength" is going to vary on orders of magnitude that go far beyond what we actual experience in reality, I'd just like it to show a little more consistency as far as how well some of the mechanics simulate reality. (And notice I didn't say I want them all to be physically accurate; just that I'd like some consistency. Make things that should scale with each other scale at roughly the same rate.)

[Crypt]

Re: Throwing distance

 

I'd just like it to show a little more consistency as far as how well some of the mechanics simulate reality. (And notice I didn't say I want them all to be physically accurate; just that I'd like some consistency. Make things that should scale with each other scale at roughly the same rate.)

 

i agree with you.....(it reminds me several of my past posts... i dream of a decibel scale in a mix of HERO and MEGS...)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Throwing distance

 

Prestidigitator: being able to buy a NCM for throwing is a great idea!

 

I think the only arena in which leaping distance should make an effort to be reasonably accurate is in the normal human range because, to be honest, that is the only one we can really check anyway.

 

Technique is MASSIVELY important here, rather than simply strength/dexterity - look at how far dedicated longjumpers can go compared to people who just hurl themselves into space.

 

What we do know is that no one can shift their centre of mass more than about 1 m above its starting position (which is why technique is also massively important for highjumpers) and that jumpers in general are often quite slight - they are strong for their size but not strong on any absolute scale.

 

If we decouple STR from leaping and assume that anyone can leap 1" up and (say 2" forward from a standing jump, 4" with a running jump (and that is probably generous), then have some sort of skill or power based method of increasing that, we would probably get as close as we are going to.

[Crypt]

Re: Throwing distance

 

About my first post: i won't use it because i lose the nice equality where the thrower's STR = thrown item's MASS + thrown item's Velocity found in the Kim's version:

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/herosystem/move/

 

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/kim.php

 

I will keep using the Kim's version but it lacks one variable = the thrower velocity.

 

So i thought about using a simple variant of the Movement & Strength rule where 2" may be convert into +1 STR (H5ER p364-365.)

In order to convert this rule in the VF way and keep consistancy it would be 1 VF = 5 STR.

 

So a moving character would add his own VF X 5 to the (Str-Mass) column in order to find the distance of throwing.

In order to keep inner consistancy and the STR=MASS+VF equality it's needed to say that the thrower VF is added to damage dices.

STR + thrower's VF = thrown item's MASS + thrown item's VF + thrower's VF.

You may see that it follows the Move Throught logic where VF increases damage.

EDIT: Actually this is the same as a Range "Move-throught" so you may use VF as a malus to OCV. It also means that throwing and movement are combined (as in a Move-throught where movement and attack are combined.)

 

EDIT:

Option: if you think that it gives too high distances results in the everyman range you may state that the chart gives distances for VF 2 as a default. So the actual addition from VF is (VF-2)X5 instead of VFX5.

So a non-moving character substract (0-2)X5 = -10 to the (Str-Mass) column.

(actually a non-moving character doesn't have a VF0, his VF would be negative infinity, but this is simpler to say so here.)

 

 

It goes against the M&S rule because it's said that the M&S conversion doesnt allow to use the converted movement nor to use it in order to do more damage in combat.

There is not doubt about the fact that IRL speed increases kinetic energy so i wonder why the M&S rule limits its own uses (and is in contradiction with the Move Throught logic.).