A roll high variant

[Crypt]

Note: i don't want to argue about low roll vs high roll.

 

Here instead of rolling 3d6 under a score or 3d6+mods vs 10+ the player rolls 2D6-2D6 vs 0+.

 

But there is something more = symetrical open ended.

Each 6 or -6 has a 1/2 chance to become a 7 or -7 which has 1/2 chance to become a 8 or -8, etc.....no limit.

Those open ended are simultaneous. Positive opens and negative ones may occur at the same time.

 

 

 

 

For instance:

you roll 2D6-2D6 and get 4,6,-6 and -6

The sum is -2.

But you reroll the 6 and the two -6.

Do not add their results now !

If you roll 4 or more with the 6 dice then it become a 7, etc....

If you roll -4 or less with the -6 dice then it become a -7, etc...

Let say we get: 4, -3, -5

This means we add +1,0 and -1 to the sum.

We have to reroll the first and third dice. (the second one was -3 so we stop rolling it)

2, -6

The first one does nothing (because 2<4), the -6 brings an additionnal -1.

We reroll it.

We get -3. So it stops here.

 

Total = -2+1-1-1 = -3

 

 

Example 2:

you roll 2D6-2D6 and get 6,3,-2 and -3 = +4

Reroll the 6 => 4 so you add +1

Reroll it => 2 so you stop here.

Total = +4+1 = +5

 

 

 

Now, please, before saying it looks slow, weird or complex please try it with real dices ( ) That's more intuitive than it looks. (Don't forget you may group dices : 4+1-5-2 = 0-2 ....)

 

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/2d_2d/

 

In this URL you will find the results for 10.000.000 rolls and the corresponding graphics.

You may see that the probabilities are not too far from those of a classical 3D6.

6- = -5 : 13 %

8- = -3 : 27%

11- = 0 : 55 % (that's under 62% but in the other hand high or low results have higher probabilities than with 3d6)

 

You may also see that the possibilities of simultaneous open-ended rolls tend to calm down the potential explosive results.

The cumulative 1/2 chance does the same.

 

About the advantages of a 0 centered method:

- your basic score is you average score.

- smaller numbers than a classical roll high method.

- you know you are under or over your average capacities when you roll a negative or positive dices score.

- when you don't want to make rolls (for instance for you NPCs) you simply use their basic score+mods as if they were final results.

 

 

 

PS: After that you may link effects rolls to the (pure) action roll this way if you want:

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/chart_4d.php

But this is another story...

[Sean Waters]

Re: A roll high variant

 

Oddly enough I was only talking about '2up2down' the other day.

 

I like it: it is easy to do and as quick as 3d6 despite the additional die because quite frequently some dice cancel.

 

I can not personally see the point in an open ended system though, unless you introduce a 'Margin of Success' element to the mix, and I'm against that in HERO combat because it conflicts with the whole basis of the system set up, IMO. It might be OK for determining skill results but - hey - you can get -10 to +10 on '2u2d', which is a pretty decent range.

 

So: 'yesbut...nobut...'

[Crypt]

Re: A roll high variant

 

I can not personally see the point in an open ended system though, unless you introduce a 'Margin of Success' element to the mix, and I'm against that in HERO combat because it conflicts with the whole basis of the system set up, IMO.

 

You're right but i don't use margins and IMHO margins are not required to justify an open ended method.

 

As far as a system use modifiers, difficulties and random rolls an open-ended method can make sense. There is no need to use margins.

 

Eg. you are at -10 because of various reasons (poor skill, poor conditions, injuries, etc) and this is your last chance to hit the monster's head (-8), which is his only weak part. Open ended rolls give you a chance (i personally dislike and never use rules like 3 (or 18)= auto success. Don't even try to persuade me to use one)

 

I also use a "unmodified action roll to effect total" conversion table so it adds another reason.

 

Third i simply dislike static rolls. That's boring. The straight 3d6 is not funny (for me.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: A roll high variant

 

Open ended systems are similar to a 'to hit' version of criticals and fumbles and that always works against PCs in the long term. It is never going to actually happen when it really matters (at least not in a good way), and all it is doing is changing the theoretical shape of the bell curve. if you are already at -10, perhaps you should run away rather than fighting on. Open ended systems are hope, and there is no crueller thing in the Universe: why do you think all the nasties were so eager to get out of Pandora's Box? Hope was in their with them.

 

I know I suggested an open ended damage system the other week, but that was in response to a specific need: making killing attacks capable of killing.

 

Also I change my mind a lot

[Crypt]

Re: A roll high variant

 

Open ended systems are hope, and there is no crueller thing in the Universe: why do you think all the nasties were so eager to get out of Pandora's Box? Hope was in their with them.

 

Hope is adventure

 

I see rolls the same way i see rules = everything must be possible.

[Crypt]

Re: A roll high variant

 

all it is doing is changing the theoretical shape of the bell curve.

 

to compare:

 

Number of rolls =1 000 000

2d6-2d6

 

# -10 ----------- 0,0822% ----------- 100%

# -9 ----------- 0,317% ----------- 99,9178%

# -8 ----------- 0,7676% ----------- 99,6008%

# -7 ----------- 1,5365% ----------- 98,8332%

# -6 ----------- 2,6852% ----------- 97,2967%

# -5 ----------- 4,273% ----------- 94,6115%

# -4 ----------- 6,1982% ----------- 90,3385%

# -3 ----------- 7,9883% ----------- 84,1403%

# -2 ----------- 9,6462% ----------- 76,152%

# -1 ----------- 10,8157% ----------- 66,5058%

# 0 ----------- 11,307% ----------- 55,6901%

# 1 ----------- 10,7762% ----------- 44,3831%

# 2 ----------- 9,6231% ----------- 33,6069%

# 3 ----------- 8,0983% ----------- 23,9838%

# 4 ----------- 6,1631% ----------- 15,8855%

# 5 ----------- 4,3444% ----------- 9,72240000000002%

# 6 ----------- 2,6896% ----------- 5,37800000000001%

# 7 ----------- 1,541% ----------- 2,68840000000002%

# 8 ----------- 0,7638% ----------- 1,14740000000002%

# 9 ----------- 0,3096% ----------- 0,383600000000015%

# 10 ----------- 0,074% ----------- 0,0740000000000123%

 

2d6-2d6 with symetrical open ended

 

# -26 ----------- 0,0001% ----------- 100%

# -24 ----------- 0,0001% ----------- 99,9999%

# -23 ----------- 0,0003% ----------- 99,9998%

# -22 ----------- 0,0004% ----------- 99,9995%

# -21 ----------- 0,0009% ----------- 99,9991%

# -20 ----------- 0,0014% ----------- 99,9982%

# -19 ----------- 0,0022% ----------- 99,9968%

# -18 ----------- 0,0037% ----------- 99,9946%

# -17 ----------- 0,0086% ----------- 99,9909%

# -16 ----------- 0,0145% ----------- 99,9823%

# -15 ----------- 0,0262% ----------- 99,9678%

# -14 ----------- 0,0484% ----------- 99,9416%

# -13 ----------- 0,0945% ----------- 99,8932%

# -12 ----------- 0,1608% ----------- 99,7987%

# -11 ----------- 0,2795% ----------- 99,6379%

# -10 ----------- 0,4957% ----------- 99,3584%

# -9 ----------- 0,8413% ----------- 98,8627%

# -8 ----------- 1,3718% ----------- 98,0214%

# -7 ----------- 2,1734% ----------- 96,6496%

# -6 ----------- 3,1876% ----------- 94,4762%

# -5 ----------- 4,5449% ----------- 91,2886%

# -4 ----------- 5,9714% ----------- 86,7437%

# -3 ----------- 7,5097% ----------- 80,7723%

# -2 ----------- 8,7149% ----------- 73,2626%

# -1 ----------- 9,589% ----------- 64,5477%

# 0 ----------- 9,9302% ----------- 54,9587%

# 1 ----------- 9,5836% ----------- 45,0285%

# 2 ----------- 8,703% ----------- 35,4449%

# 3 ----------- 7,469% ----------- 26,7419%

# 4 ----------- 6,0321% ----------- 19,2729%

# 5 ----------- 4,4936% ----------- 13,2408%

# 6 ----------- 3,1988% ----------- 8,74720000000001%

# 7 ----------- 2,1919% ----------- 5,5484%

# 8 ----------- 1,3793% ----------- 3,3565%

# 9 ----------- 0,8394% ----------- 1,9772%

# 10 ----------- 0,5015% ----------- 1,1378%

# 11 ----------- 0,2843% ----------- 0,636300000000006%

# 12 ----------- 0,1578% ----------- 0,352000000000004%

# 13 ----------- 0,0866% ----------- 0,194200000000009%

# 14 ----------- 0,0477% ----------- 0,107600000000005%

# 15 ----------- 0,0279% ----------- 0,059899999999999%

# 16 ----------- 0,0144% ----------- 0,0319999999999965%

# 17 ----------- 0,0092% ----------- 0,0176000000000016%

# 18 ----------- 0,0039% ----------- 0,00839999999999463%

# 19 ----------- 0,0017% ----------- 0,00449999999999307%

# 20 ----------- 0,0014% ----------- 0,00279999999999347%

# 21 ----------- 0,0009% ----------- 0,00139999999998963%

# 22 ----------- 0,0002% ----------- 0,000499999999988177%

# 23 ----------- 0,0002% ----------- 0,000299999999981537%

# 26 ----------- 0,0001% ----------- 9,99999999748979E-05%

 

 

if you are already at -10' date=' perhaps you should run away rather than fighting on.[/quote']

 

The monster runs faster than you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A roll high variant

 

..........

 

The monster runs faster than you.

 

Then out-think it, trick it, bluff it, distract it or run faster than the rest of the party.

 

Fighting it sounds insane though.

[Crypt]

Re: A roll high variant

 

Then out-think it, trick it, bluff it, distract it or run faster than the rest of the party.

 

Fighting it sounds insane though.

 

Yes, some mythological heroes were insane.

 

 

run faster than the rest of the party.

 

nasty

[Crypt]

Re: A roll high variant

 

maybe you may prefer this variant:

Opens are no longer simultaneous and less frequent.

If one side has a double 6 (+6+6 or -6-6) but the other side doesn't so you roll a dice and add +1/-1 on a 4+/- (1/2 chance) and reroll (and add +1/-1) until it stops.

=>

Some examples:

3 4 -3 -4=0

1 5 -5 -6=-5

6 6 -4 -2 (+1) (+1) (+1) (0)=9

5 3 -6 -6 (0)=-4

6 5 -6 -6 (-1) (0)=-2

1 1 -6 -1=-5

5 6 -6 -6 (0)=-1

1 1 -6 -6 (-1) (-1) (0)=-12

 

Results =

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/2d_2d2/

 

EDIT: i've modified it. Negative and Positive opens may be simultaneous.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: A roll high variant

 

I did suggest 2d6-2d6 as an option on the 6e discussion, mainly because it is zero-centrered. It doesn't extend the standard deviation by much (15.5%) since the bell curve is tighter, nor is the central result much less likely: 11.27% chance of getting 0, compared to 12.5% chance of getting 10 (or 11) on 3d6.

 

Rather than having open-ended rerolls, the range can be extended in simpler ways, e.g.: Count 1s as 0 and 6s as 10. This extends the range to -20 to +20 while retaining a fairly nice bell curve.

 

- Klaus

[Sean Waters]

Re: A roll high variant

 

maybe you may prefer this variant:

Opens are no longer simultaneous and less frequent.

If one side has a double 6 (+6+6 or -6-6) but the other side doesn't so you roll a dice and add +1/-1 on a 4+/- (1/2 chance) and reroll (and add +1/-1) until it stops.

=>

Some examples:

3 4 -3 -4=0

1 5 -5 -6=-5

6 6 -4 -2 (+1) (+1) (+1) (0)=9

5 3 -6 -6 (0)=-4

6 5 -6 -6 (-1) (0)=-2

1 1 -6 -1=-5

5 6 -6 -6 (0)=-1

1 1 -6 -6 (-1) (-1) (0)=-12

 

Results =

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/2d_2d2/

 

 

One interesting - and very quick - variant that gives a broader range of results (-12 to +12) and a most peculiar distribution is that you roll 2 green and 2 red, and take the highest number as the result (then make green poitive and red negative). If the rolls tie then the result is zero.

 

You can not roll 1 or -1

[Crypt]

Re: A roll high variant

 

Rather than having open-ended rerolls, the range can be extended in simpler ways, e.g.: Count 1s as 0 and 6s as 10. This extends the range to -20 to +20 while retaining a fairly nice bell curve.

 

One interesting - and very quick - variant that gives a broader range of results (-12 to +12) and a most peculiar distribution is that you roll 2 green and 2 red, and take the highest number as the result (then make green poitive and red negative). If the rolls tie then the result is zero. You can not roll 1 or -1

 

Both are a little too weird for me

[Sean Waters]

Re: A roll high variant

 

Both are a little too weird for me

 

The high2 roll is basically two modified 2d6 curves, with some odd kinks in. It gives a much greater range of effect than 2up2down, in that extreme results are still much more likely. In fact (and I'm guessing here) I'd think you get three highs: -7, 0 and +7.

 

It is weird, but interesting if you like a slightly less predictable outcome.

[Crypt]

Re: A roll high variant

 

One interesting - and very quick - variant that gives a broader range of results (-12 to +12) and a most peculiar distribution is that you roll 2 green and 2 red, and take the highest number as the result (then make green poitive and red negative). If the rolls tie then the result is zero.

 

 

do you mean, for instance:

 

5 2 -3 -6 ==> -9 ?

[Sean Waters]

Re: A roll high variant

 

do you mean, for instance:

 

5 2 -3 -6 ==> -9 ?

 

Indeed

[Crypt]

Re: A roll high variant

 

Indeed

 

 

==>

no, thanks

 

You can not roll 1 or -1

 

nor -2 & 2

[Sean Waters]

Re: A roll high variant

 

==>

no, thanks

 

 

 

nor -2 & 2

 

 

You are right: weird, huh? I have actually tried this (I wrote a game system, or about 1/2 a game system) years ago and it is OK, really, although that was a margin of success based system. It doesn't feel as strange in practice as it looks in theory.