[Lucha Libre Hero] How do you kick out of a cover?

[Jed Clayton]

Hello everyone.

 

I recently bought Lucha Libre Hero, so far one of my favorite Hero System books. It will very likely be the only setting and genre I'll run with the Hero System 5th Edition rules.

 

Next year I might switch to the new 6th edition of the Hero System, but at the time of writing this (and planning my campaign), I'm going with the modified 5th edition core rules contained in the Lucha Libre Hero book.

 

One of the major things I have to know in advance for running a wrestling game is how pro wrestling's "pinfalls" work:

 

Now, I understand that, in order to get a fall, you have to keep your opponent down with both shoulders firmly on the ground for three Segments, not three Phases. So it will be crucial to learn when a wrestler (PC or NPC) typically gets a chance to "kick out of a cover"! When do I do that?

 

If I only get a chance to counter a cover on a Segment where I have an active "Phase", then SPD (Speed) becomes very important. SPD determines how many actions I get in a turn, and if my SPD is only 2 or 3, there are many Segments left in a Turn where I cannot act. In other words, the referee in the ring would count to 3 before I could break/kick out of the cover. (There would be a "count" on every Segment, is that correct?)

 

I gave my first luchador SPD 4 precisely because of that. But is kicking out even considered a full action, requiring a Full Phase? I'm not clear on that, yet.

 

The other rules work great for wrestling and lucha libre simulations.

[Steve Long]

Re: [Lucha Libre Hero] How do you kick out of a cover?

 

I'm going to move this to the Discussion board and ask Darren or Jason to post a response for you. They know waaaaay more about the ins and outs of wrestling than I do, and can give you a more accurate in-genre answer. For that matter a gamer or two may have opinions.

[Darren Watts]

Re: [Lucha Libre Hero] How do you kick out of a cover?

 

First off, I wouldn't worry about the exact count off of a three-second pin in segments- no referi ever actually counts exactly three seconds. My off-the-cuff judgment would be that an attempted pin triggers a strength-vs.-strength contest with the pin-ee, regardless of whether he has a held action or not, and that to further duplicate the likelihood of successfully kicking out, ties go to the pin-ee. Kicking out doesn't take an action, therefore. However, if the wrestler being pinned is knocked out, he doesn't get a kickout. Depending on how long you want fights to last, you can decide Stunned opponents also don't get a kickout, but that will make pinfalls much more common in most campaigns. OTOH, if you want kickouts to be as common as they are in WWE-style fights, you might even award a STR *bonus* to the guy being pinned, so that actual pinfalls are rare compared to the number of attempts. dw

[Darren Watts]

Re: [Lucha Libre Hero] How do you kick out of a cover?

 

An additional thought occurs to me- if you want the kickout to be more representative of the "indomitability" of the victim, you might tie the kickout to a CON or EGO roll, so only the toughest (mentally or physically) are capable of it. EGO might be better if you want this to be primarily a feature of tecnicos, as even the most monstrous rudos typically have low EGO. dw

[Jed Clayton]

Re: [Lucha Libre Hero] How do you kick out of a cover?

 

Thank you very much for the suggestions so far, Darren.

 

Yes, I can see basing it on a special EGO Roll, but the STR vs. STR contest is also helpful. I was thinking of using a DEX Roll myself (representing the "kayfabe" wrestling skill), since that would explain how a small luchador like Rey Mysterio Jr. kicks out against a 350-pound mountain of muscle.

 

I'd make ties go to the defender myself, but not award the pin-ee especially for the kick-out attempt. I don't want to emulate WWE too much. Better too keep it lucha libre.

[Secret Master]

Re: [Lucha Libre Hero] How do you kick out of a cover?

 

Here's my two-cents worth:

 

There are really two distinctive types of combat in LLH: in the ring and out of the ring. I wouldn't worry about this problem out of the ring, where combat should be extremely chaotic, involve a lot of props, and probably not a lot of pins. I'm being hopelessly simulationist here, but that's the way El Santo and Blue Demon did it in there movies, so it works for me.

 

My off-the-cuff judgment would be that an attempted pin triggers a strength-vs.-strength contest with the pin-ee, regardless of whether he has a held action or not, and that to further duplicate the likelihood of successfully kicking out, ties go to the pin-ee.

 

In the ring where combat is as stylized as Kabuki, Darren's suggestion raises an interesting strategic point: is holding an action at the beginning of the Turn an inherently important part of wresting in the HERO System? I hadn't really thought of it, but perhaps it is... if you want it to be!

 

Secret Master AKA Jason Walters

[Jed Clayton]

Re: [Lucha Libre Hero] How do you kick out of a cover?

 

Here's my two-cents worth:

 

There are really two distinctive types of combat in LLH: in the ring and out of the ring [...]

 

My off-the-cuff judgment would be that an attempted pin triggers a strength-vs.-strength contest with the pin-ee, regardless of whether he has a held action or not, and that to further duplicate the likelihood of successfully kicking out, ties go to the pin-ee.

 

In the ring where combat is as stylized as Kabuki, Darren's suggestion raises an interesting strategic point: is holding an action at the beginning of the Turn an inherently important part of wresting in the HERO System? I hadn't really thought of it, but perhaps it is... if you want it to be!

 

Secret Master AKA Jason Walters

 

Hello there,

 

I'm happy to report that last night I ran a game of Lucha Libre Hero for four friends and we all had a very good time. I also managed to keep the Nacho stains to my new book to a minimum.

(That is not a joke. It was my idea to bring something Mexican to the table food-wise ...)

 

Since we started directly with a wrestling match like the one at the beginning of Contra Todo Mal, a few questions came up about the combat resolution system:

 

First off, I took your advice to use STR-vs.-STR contests for a pin attempt. Once I had decided to do that, I realized there was no section in the LLH book that really explained a Characteristic vs. Characteristic contest.

 

When I checked in the Hero System 5th Edition book, I noticed there are probably at least three methods to resolve this:

 

1. Both sides involved in the STR vs. STR situation use their STR "effect dice", 1d6 for every increment of 5 in STR, and count the Normal BODY Damage done. Since there are so many holds that effectively boost the luchador's STR by +15 or +20, this highly favors the attacker since he simply gets a couple more dice.

 

2. Both sides involved in STR vs. STR make a Characteristic Roll against their effective active STR:

Luchador A using a mat hold that increases his STR 15 to a STR 30 must make the roll against 15- (i.e. 9 + 30/5). Luchador B with a raw STR 15 must make a roll against 12-. The side that makes their roll by more wins.

 

3. Both sides involved in STR vs. STR make a Characteristic Roll as if it were a Skill vs. Skill contest. The attacker rolls first... whatever he makes his Characteristic Roll by is the penalty to the defender's target number. I'm not sure whether that makes a good house rule. We tried it once yesterday, but it even more dramatically favors the wrestler with the higher STR.

 

So, for the moment, I'm torn between using the STR damage effect dice or two Characteristic Rolls. I kind of prefer Characteristic Rolls.

 

Another difficulty in our game yesterday was wrestling an opponent with very high DEX and SPD. One player had almost maxed out in DEX, SPD and Acrobatics at character creation and had spent 60 points on wrestling holds and takedowns. That wrestler's "opponent", having SPD 3 and fewer holds, complained that he had no way to grab or damage the fast luchador. It seemed more like a rhinoceros fighting a grasshopper. The grasshopper could just about go anywhere before the rhinoceros could blink. The smaller guy always dodged attacks and slipped out of holds, and having SPD would always attack first.

 

One player also asked why there were so few holds that directly boosted his OCV. Most of the maneuvers actually decreases the OCV because they are difficult to do. I think the player was excited about playing a wrestler, but felt cheated since he was taking penalties to his favorite moves.