Effectiveness Based on Percentiles

[Clovis]

Re: Effectiveness Based on Percentiles

 

Flexible Guy can match either the attack or the defense of straight up guy - he cannot match both. Yet they are both capped at the same CV's' date=' the same SPD, etc. Flexible Guy cannot match Straight up guy's DC's and defenses simultaneously, yet he is still prohibited from enhancing his CV's or his SPD to be better than Straight Up Guy in those categories. Straight Up Guy can do anything Flexible Guy can do, and gets to do some things better. So where is Flexible Guy's niche? Comic relief sidekick?[/quote']

 

As I understand it, flexible guy would have more points, which should allow for more abilities and variety to be added to the character, please correct me if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

 

Also, in general this seems like a loose rule system, select circumstances may force overruling on character builds, as every character build guidelines have. However I think this method offers felexability, it is just as varnerable to people playing the system, rather than the game, as any other method.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Effectiveness Based on Percentiles

 

As I understand it' date=' flexible guy would have more points, which should allow for more abilities and variety to be added to the character, please correct me if I'm wrong I'm wrong.[/quote']

 

From the discussion to date, StaticMan could have a Multipower of a dozen 15 DC attacks, and of every defense to the maximum possible level, permitting him a great deal of flexibility in both areas. Only when he has the ability to choose between attack and defense, for example, does he fall afoul of the system. As long as my flexibility is confined within each category (eg. he can choose between numerous max DC attacks, numerous max AP defenses, OCV and OMCV, or DCV and DMCV), rather than being between categories (he can enhance damage at the expense of defenses, or boost his OCV at the cost of DCV), the system assesses no value to that flexibility. A single 100 AP, 15 DC attack is counted exactly the same as a Cosmic VPP restricted to allowing selection of any attack of up to 15 DC and up to 100 AP.

 

For example, if the percentages set allow a 15 DC attack and 50 AP in defenses, StaticMan can have a Multipower with a dozen 15DC attacks, and +48 in each defense (leaving 2 for base PD and ED - he can buy base 2 in every other defense if he wants) to pick and choose between. FlexibleMan, assuming the same SPD and CV's as StaticMan, who can have either a 15DC attack OR 50 points in defenses, but not both simultaneously, is evaluated as being equal to StaticMan under this system.

 

To me, a character who always has 15 DC's and always has 50 points in defenses is considerably more powerful than one who can have, say, a 9 DC attack and 20 points in defenses, or a 12 DC attack and 35 points in defenses, or a 15 DC attack and 20 points in defenses. Logically, the latter character should be able to excel in some other way over the former character, but this system locks him down. He can't have a better SPD, or better CV's.

 

Similarly, a character with 15 OCV and 15 DCV is rated equally to an otherwise identical character with 5 OCV, 5 DCV, and the ability to add up to 10 to his OCV or his DCV. If that ability comes from skill levels, the latter character also has to have attacks 5 DC's lower than the former, as he could use his levels to enhance his DC's at the cost of having a 5 OCV and a 5 DCV.

 

To the extent a flexible character has saved points, I guess he can be more useful out of combat, but I assume that all the characters have some utility outside combat as well. If available points already prevent achievement of the maxima in all areas, then a system prohibiting going beyond them seems like it accomplishes little.

 

The flexible character under this system seems only to have the ability to be weaker in one or more categories at any given time than the static character. In my view, that puts the flexible character at a significant disadvantage.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Re: Effectiveness Based on Percentiles

 

As I understand it' date=' flexible guy would have more points, which should allow for more abilities and variety to be added to the character, please correct me if I'm wrong I'm wrong. [/quote']

 

Flexibility is a source of power in HERO. However, it is easily blown away by sheer power. Finding someone's weak point is all well and good, but when you can have an attack big enough that their strong point doesn't matter. Finding out that Macho Muscle Man has only 20ED versus his 30PD is cool when you have a PD and ED attack. However you don't care if you instead have a 3 DC higher punch.

 

The greatest form of flexibility, the VPP, can totally deal with being a world where everything is more powerful in terms of raw power. However, VPPs carry their own baggage and balance issues (your campaign will never be the same) and in my experiences most gaming groups don't use them especially with PCs.

 

Flexibility as a source of effectiveness matters far more when everything else is equal. If everyone has 12 DC attacks, then having different 12 DC attacks and using the right one for the job matters a lot. However beyond defenses, flexibility is cheap due to multipowers.

 

Also, in general this seems like a loose rule system, select circumstances may force overruling on character builds, as every character build guidelines have. However I think this method offers felexability, it is just as varnerable to people playing the system, rather than the game, as any other method.

 

The issue isn't that the system has flaws universal to caps system (gaming the system and edge cases). The problem people have is that annihilates flexibility. It creates bad incentives towards certain builds and concepts that don't need them. Martial Artists and "all power to shields or weapons but not both" style characters shouldn't be a problem in an adjustable cap system (where you can lower your ability in one area for power in another). Thus you want to play static defenses and attack characters and that seems rather pointless to having an adjustable cap system that's suppose to offer more flexibility over a "20PD/20ED, 12 DC and no more or less" style fixed cap system.

[The Main Man]

Re: Effectiveness Based on Percentiles

 

My mind has cooled off like after getting far in Missile Command or Asteroids, and the absence allowed this thread to sink in better instead of instantly responding like earlier.

 

I now think that in-game adjustable caps may not break the percentile method after all. A character may be built to shift between fields as long as such adjustments reflect a zero sum e.g. they don't just gain DC's without losing something else, et cetera. This would require more scrutiny as far as I can see, but keep in mind that this method has not been implemented yet in any of my games. In any case, HERO always requires scrutiny IMO, but it's equally important to know your players.

 

I also got to considering a few other ideas:

 

1. Expanded Effect may be another Power Advantage that "raises Damage Classes"; I'm wondering about including Delayed Return Rate as well. They're not as obvious as the others because they're meant for Adjustment Powers and Dispel, as opposed to Blast or HKA.

 

2. I may simplify the Damage Classes part to Base Damage Classes i.e. the raw dice you buy and a GM just has to eyeball the character's Advantages in general.

 

3. The same goes for Defenses - just the raw points, but no Advantages like Hardened or Resistant.

 

The second two are more ponderous than concrete right now though. I still have to sit down and do the math.