Desolid and OIHID

[Guest Confusinator]

Would you allow a character whose premise was the ability to turn desolid, buy a series of powers that affect solid, and then tack on OIHID for those powers, and saying they only work when the character is desolid?

 

At first glance, I say yes. But on second glance I think that it may be a cheesy way of getting the affect solid advantage cheaper.

 

But I am flip flopping. I think there should be some bonus for the powers only working when desolid, but OIHID is already at the lowest level, so it cant be reduced any.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Desolid and OIHID

 

Originally posted by Confusinator

Would you allow a character whose premise was the ability to turn desolid, buy a series of powers that affect solid, and then tack on OIHID for those powers, and saying they only work when the character is desolid?

 

At first glance, I say yes. But on second glance I think that it may be a cheesy way of getting the affect solid advantage cheaper.

 

But I am flip flopping. I think there should be some bonus for the powers only working when desolid, but OIHID is already at the lowest level, so it cant be reduced any.

 

If the powers that Affect Physical World work only when the character is Desolid, they should be taken with the "Linked" Limitation, at whatever value is appropriate for the Powers in question. As to OIHID, is the Desolidification OIHID, and is that appropriate for the character in question? If either answer is "no", then I'd say the powers in question should also not get that Limitation.

[Guest Confusinator]

Linked to desolid

 

If you link an instant power (EB) to a constant power (desolid), then the instant power is only activated when the constant power is activated. So that won't work. The character would have to turn off desolid and turn it back on in order to use the EB.

[Monolith]

The question here would be how is the OIHID limiting the character. Any Limitation which does not limit the character is not worth a value. The only way the OIHID would limit the character is if the Desolid was Drained; and it would be fairly difficult for a Drain to remove all the Desolid. So from that standpoint I would rule that the player was trying to rule-rape and not let him have it.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Linked to desolid

 

Originally posted by Confusinator

If you link an instant power (EB) to a constant power (desolid), then the instant power is only activated when the constant power is activated. So that won't work. The character would have to turn off desolid and turn it back on in order to use the EB.

 

You might not technically use "Linked", but looking at the Limitation costs for Linked can provide an idea what it would be worth to have the power work only when Desolid... and in this case, the answer is little to nothing.

[bjbrown]

I don't see anything wrong with the construct, but from other posts maybe I don't understand the question.

 

So the character has a Heroic ID. Desolidification is only usable in Hero ID (gets limitation). The character also has an Energy Blast. That power gets the advantage Affects Solid and the Limitation Only In Hero ID. I see nothing wrong with that. The Energy Blast is limited since he can't use it when he's not in the heroic ID, but he still has to pay points to affect solid. So sure, the other powers can have OIHID and that's completely reasonable

 

If the question is whether he gets an additional limitation beyond OIHID (OIHID and Only When Desol.), then no, I don't see an additional limitation there. What is the situation in which he would be using his powers and would want to be easier to hit by not being Desol.? OIHID is good enough.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by bjbrown

I don't see anything wrong with the construct, but from other posts maybe I don't understand the question.

I think what the character is trying to do is buy Desolid, and then he wants to put a -1/4 Limitation (OIHID) on all the other powers purchased. So basically he wants to have all the powers only work when he is Desolid. That in itself is not a bad thing, but it just feels like munchkin to me because the character will always be in a Desolid state. There is no reason for the character to turn solid.

 

While I might allow this, I would be very careful in making sure that Active Point limits were not exceeded. No 12d6 Affects Solid OIHID attacks for that character in my game.

[Farkling]

I definitely wouldn't allow the Persistant/Inherent combination on the Desol.

 

A 1/4 Advantage for the Desol is no more munchkining than purchasing all the powers IIF. Of course, I believe that by it's very nature, a Drian or Suppress against Desol should affect Desol characters. Other GM's will disagree.

 

OHID for all powers except Desol is acceptable in my gmae universe. After all, he must still be affected by a reasonably common group of effects even while Desolid. The munchkinoid would be buying defenses against THOSE effects specifiically in order to REALLY maximize cost effectiveness.

 

All I can say is let him have it, and keep in mind that the Desol shuts off when he's stunned. Just make sure it's an NND atack that it clumps into his "affected by" special effects...

 

Additionally, if the powers are only usable while Desolid, he has effectively removed his ability to use them if he IS solid.

Fair trade for a 1/4 limit.

[nHammer]

Re: Desolid and OIHID

 

Originally posted by Confusinator

Would you allow a character whose premise was the ability to turn desolid, buy a series of powers that affect solid, and then tack on OIHID for those powers, and saying they only work when the character is desolid?

 

At first glance, I say yes. But on second glance I think that it may be a cheesy way of getting the affect solid advantage cheaper.

 

But I am flip flopping. I think there should be some bonus for the powers only working when desolid, but OIHID is already at the lowest level, so it cant be reduced any.

 

I wouldn't use OIHID. I'd just give the powers the limitation of "Only usable when Desolid"(-1/4 Lim.).

[McCoy]

Re: Re: Desolid and OIHID

 

Originally posted by nHammer

I wouldn't use OIHID. I'd just give the powers the limitation of "Only usable when Desolid"(-1/4 Lim.).

Sounds good. Any power that can be used solid or desolid wouldn't get that limitation.

[nHammer]

I would also say that if the Desolid is bought costing no End., then the Limitation would be -0.

 

I mean if a character can stay Desolid for as long as he wants "Only usable when Desolid" isn't really a limitation.

[Blue Jogger]

I would like to know, what is his concept?

 

Depending on his concept and what he was, I could suggest the following.

 

Grouping some powers into an EC. Works best if the concept is one special effect that grants multiple powers.

 

Multiform. Although some would argue that it's mainly for three or more forms, it could work for two. This is another way of doing the

"I change into something not-quite-solid and kick butt" and sounds fitting if the two characters aren't at all simular. Put a required skill roll on Multiform if it is difficult to change form.

 

Make sure his Hunteds have a way of affecting desolid or otherwise make his life unhappy (gee, his DNPC is in trouble, how did that happen?)

[tesuji]

My observation would be as follows...

 

After he has purchased desolid...

 

he then purchases other powers, some of who may need +2 ARW, and some will not. For example, his flight would not require ARW but his energy blast would.

 

His flight, if it can only be used while desolid, IS entitled to a limitation for that. I would frankly give it -1/2 if it is significantly lower in Ap than the desolid and -1/4 otherwise, using linked as my basis. there is a clear limitation there.

 

For the EB, lets say its a 3d6 NND ARW for 60 AP. I would allow the exact same limitation on the EB and the NND... they are again limited. however, by definition, the 30 AP for +2 ARW is only ever going to have meaning when desolid... so it is not limited at all by "only when desolid."

 

So the EB and NND portion of the attack would get -1/4 or -1/2 for "only while desolid" while the other 30 ap for the ARW would not.

[Farkling]

I submit he is still entitled to the 1/4 limitation...

 

He must have the Desol active, and must be desolid to utilize the attack. The ARW is irrelevant in this case. If he had OHID would you let him have the 1/4 limit on those points? After all, the ARW is always relevant to the power in that case also...

 

Consider this construct::

2d6 RKA, AP (only affects resistant defenses)

Is the character entitled to the limitation on his attack? After all, the Armor Piercing is irrelevant if the target doesn't have resistant defenses. Your reasoning implies that the Armor Piercing will be paid for at full price, since it will always be relevant to the attack.

 

If his Desol is drained/suppressed, that advantage is locked out just like the rest of the attack power. How is that not a limitation? I can think of two immediate scenarios that would make it plausible that his powers are locked out and he is in a Desol state. After all, the power is linked to HIS desolid. If he is stunned by an application of "common special effect", he has to go Desolid again before using huis EB...also a limitation. I'd allow it. It's no more unreasonable than IIF or OHID.

 

I'm a gamemaster...if he's not using an EC he is completely allowed the lousy 7 points on concept alone. If it IS an EC, then the drain limits are less intimidating and he will suffer power problems in the future.

[tesuji]

[/b]

 

Originally posted by Farkling

I submit he is still entitled to the 1/4 limitation...

from cont4ext, i will be assuming you mean "on the ARW points".

Originally posted by Farkling

He must have the Desol active, and must be desolid to utilize the attack.

Right, which limits the attack power and thus reduces the overall price of the attack points.

Originally posted by Farkling

The ARW is irrelevant in this case.

I concur if you mean "for purposes of determining limits on the power."

Originally posted by Farkling

If he had OHID would you let him have the 1/4 limit on those points? After all, the ARW is always relevant to the power in that case also...

If the OIHID was more than "only while desolid" as in the OIHID had its own "activation issues" as described in the OIHID section and was not just a funny way of saying "my hero id is when i go desolid" then OF COURSE he would get to apply that limitation to the ARW points. There has to be a solid limitation.

Originally posted by Farkling

Consider this construct::

2d6 RKA, AP (only affects resistant defenses)

Is the character entitled to the limitation on his attack? After all, the Armor Piercing is irrelevant if the target doesn't have resistant defenses. Your reasoning implies that the Armor Piercing will be paid for at full price, since it will always be relevant to the attack.

I dont get your reasoning here. It does not track with the example in question. Its also unclear.

 

Assuming you mean to apply the limitation there ONLY to the Ap part of the attack, then against an enemy with no resistant defenses the limitation is irrelevent, not worth anything. But against someone with resistant defenses ONLY the resistant defenses would be halved, so this IS LIMITING and would be worth real points. it could be applied to the Ap. In some cases, you would BECAUSE OF THE LIM do less damage. (Specifically, less stun thru on some targets. The relative frequency of resistant defenses and non-resistant defenses and their proportions would help me to set the lim value. if MOST enemies have some resistant and some non-resistant and at about even levels, then about a -1/2 because it cuts the AP gain for STUN in half and does not affect the body for the attack at all.)

 

In the case of ARW and "only while desolid, no such case exists where there is a detriment from limiting the ARW to "only when desolid."

 

Its quite simple... when you are not desolid, for any reason, you do not need the ARW at all. When you are desolid, the ARW is fully effective and not limited.

 

So, at no time is the ARW ever limited by "only while desolid." being applied to it.

 

Its kind of like buying the +5 adders for non-com movement with your flight and then trying to apply "-1/4 only while flying." to them.

Originally posted by Farkling

If his Desol is drained/suppressed, that advantage is locked out just like the rest of the attack power. How is that not a limitation?

When he is not desolid, the "advantage" ARW is useless, whether he is technically allowed to use it or not. Being "locked out" of an advantage that you could not use anyway is not worth anything. losing "useless" is not a loss. Being denied "nothing" is not limiting.

Originally posted by Farkling

I can think of two immediate scenarios that would make it plausible that his powers are locked out and he is in a Desol state. After all, the power is linked to HIS desolid. If he is stunned by an application of "common special effect", he has to go Desolid again before using huis EB...also a limitation. I'd allow it. It's no more unreasonable than IIF or OHID.

Its quite simple...

 

3d6 Eb NND ARW for 60 pts.

 

if i do not limit the ARW points, then two possibilities exist. he is desolid and can gain benefit from the 30 pts of ARW

OR...

he is not desolid and cannot gain anything from ARW 30 points.

 

If i then apply the -1/4 lim only while desolid to the ARW portion alone, two possibilities exist...

 

he is desolid and can gain benefit from the 30 pts of ARW

OR...

he is not desolid and cannot gain anything from ARW 30 points.

 

There has been no change in the possibilities or circumstances, there is no limiting of his capability, so he does not get points on the ARW for "only while desolid"

 

If he limits the EB NND portion, he does get points back from those Eb NND points because of the loss of capability... he loses the possibility of using them normally.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

I'm a gamemaster...if he's not using an EC he is completely allowed the lousy 7 points on concept alone. If it IS an EC, then the drain limits are less intimidating and he will suffer power problems in the future.

 

If you want to give awards for concept, by all means, but its usually a bad idea to assign limitation values and such as the means to do so. It can get confusing when characters with worse concepts expect the same lims applied the same way to earn them as much back.

[Farkling]

Perhaps I am prejudiced against partially limited advantages in the first place. I'd let him have it instead of messing around with the math.

 

And, if I may point out...

If he is turned Desolid by other means his power is effectively locked out. I do NOT see how this is any more cheesy than applying OHID in the first place.

 

In the case of OHID, when is it a limitation if the character spends nearly all of his adventuring time in his Heroic ID?

(I'm picturing Thor, Captain Marvel, Colossus, Iron Man, Green Lantern). He is in his heroic ID except at night when sleeping, and when he awakens, he has his shower and his wheaties and *poof* has his powers back.

 

I don't see a difference logically if you allow one or the other.

If the actual question is for allowing BOTH, then slap the player and tell him his powers are OHID only...and that he can change ID's by going Desolid.

 

Its quite simple...Its quite simple...Its quite simple...

I hear that echoing in my head...that's a poor choice of phrase.

 

3d6 Eb NND ARW for 60 pts.

if i do not limit the ARW points, then two possibilities exist. he is desolid and can gain benefit from the 30 pts of ARW

OR...

he is not desolid and cannot gain anything from ARW 30 points.

 

If i then apply the -1/4 lim only while desolid to the ARW portion alone, two possibilities exist...

 

he is desolid and can gain benefit from the 30 pts of ARW

OR...

he is not desolid and cannot gain anything from ARW 30 points.

 

There has been no change in the possibilities or circumstances, there is no limiting of his capability, so he does not get points on the ARW for "only while desolid"

 

Not True.

And I will restate...if he is turned Desolid by OTHER means (with a variant special effect of course) then the ARW will not work and I find it no more of a munchkin effect than -1/4 (power unusable within 5' of Green Kryponite)

[tesuji]

"And, if I may point out...

If he is turned Desolid by other means his power is effectively locked out."

 

OK, so you see the limitation as...

 

If he is turned desolid by an external means, such as a desolid UAO

 

AND

 

at the same time he is unable to activate his own desolid by say having it drained or suppressed by some attack that wont affect the other desolid...

 

then in that circumstance the limitation would apply?

 

OK i can give you that.

 

I honestly had not even considered that particular set of circumstances.

 

Given those circumstances, I would have to say the limitation on thw ARW would be -0, given the frequency and likelihood of those occuring. The Eb NND portion however, would get the other lim which includes not only this case but also the case of any time he is simply not desolid.

 

As fort oihid, a Gm should not approve an oihid that is not limiting. For characters for whom it isn't limiting its worth nothing. You need to show a real issue before you get points for it. The description seems clear on that. So, for those characters for whom you feel OIHID is a free ride, don't give them points for it. Don't approve the lim.

 

Its just that simple.