Agent X

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

> We don't know how many times Spidey hit Firelord. We have one panel

> showing (Chuck's count IIRC) 10 hits. We also have Cap's comment that

> Firelord couldn't lay a glove on Spidey near then end, implying the actual

> endgame lasted long enough for Cap to watch and be impressed, not just

> one panel [...]

 

Wrong. It lasted one *page*, with seven panels.

 

Panel #1 -- Spidey hits Firelord once.

 

Panel #2 -- Spidey hits Firelord once.

 

Panel #3 -- Spidey hits Firelord once.

 

Panel #4 -- the big splash panel. This has the 'Maximum Spider' sequence of Spidey jumping around and around and around, in stop-motion. Spidey hits Firelord four times. (The artist helpfully includes *bok!* and *swak!* sound effects to help us count.)

 

Panel #5 -- Spidey hits Firelord once.

 

Panel #6 -- Spidey hits Firelord once.

 

Panel #7 -- Spidey hits Firelord once.

 

Panel #1, next page. -- Spidey keeps talking. No punching. (It's an extreme close-up on Spidey's face. Panels 7, page prior, was also a close-up with Firelord out of frame -- the 'camera' has been focusing in tighter and tighter on Spidey for the past few panels, so we don't see the approaching Avengers -- but panel #7 included a *Bkak!* sound effect and a shot of Spidey's fist swinging so that we could tell there was a blow. This panel, none of that.)

 

Panel #2, next page -- Cap grabs Spidey's arm, tells him to stop.

 

OK, that's the hit count. Now, here's the timing indicators. Dialogue.

 

Panel #5 -- "You may be bigger and far more powerful, but that's just not good enough mister!"

 

Panel #6 -- "You'll never stop me... no matter how strong you are! I'm just too stubborn to know when to quit!"

 

Panel #7 -- "I'll keep on coming back... keep fighting... until I find a way to beat you! To win!"

 

Panel #1, next page: "I won't give up, you hear? I WON'T! I WON'T!"

 

Panel #2, next page: Captain America says "You don't have to give up, son -- you've already won!"

 

As we can see from the conversation, the one page flows into the other as a single uninterrupted sequence, with no time lapse.

You can count panels and try to argue real time all you want but it's a bit silly considering that's not what the artists and writers are likely to be trying to represent.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I posted his exact quote' date=' then said "If I understand it correctly, he is claiming. . .." He was not saying it was unlikely to be that much power, he was saying that the main guns could not be fired with the shields up. He may be right, I don't have the book in front of me. But in this case, you're the one distorting the arguement.[/quote'] We're talking about different Gary posts.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Stands to reason' date=' if they didn't have the Watcher backing them up. Not to mention possibly being behind Sue's force field at the time.[/quote'] What exactly was the Watcher doing besides clueing Reed into the Ultimate Nullifier? What's Sue's paltry power to that of Galactus?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

For all we've disagreed before' date=' this is the first time I recall that you came accross as trollish.[/quote'] This cracks me up. You rep a guy who calls me a liar in this very thread but I'm the one being trollish, not him. This is especially funny to me, because I'm using the thought processes he's demonstrated in this thread to make the argument that Galactus should have won and that, therefore, it's poor writing that Marvel Earth is even around.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Let's see, the exact quote is

 

If I understand it correctly, he is claiming that Sanctuary II did not fire its main weapons, but somehow used the "excess" power of the shields to do a Force Wall shove / knockback only attack.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Yup. Stan Lee used:

 

a) Winning the respect/friendship of the antagonist and turning him from the Dark Side (Silver Surfer)

 

Stalling until you can do a run-in with a cosmic macguffin (Ultimate Nullifier)

 

c) Bringing another heavy hitter into the fight (the Watcher)

 

Which are three of the classic ways in which heros defeat cosmic things way bigger than them, in well-written stories.

 

So yes, that's *exactly* like Spidey-vs-Firelord. Only, you know, with 100% less Galactus beatdown.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Refresh my memory. When did the FF physically overpower Galactus? IIRC his first apperance he was driven off by (1) the intervention of the Watcher (2) turning his herald against him and (3) recovering the mcguffin he feared.

 

If instead of Reed threatening him with the Ultimate Nullifier, Ben had pummeled him into unconciousness, I would agree it was a bad story. But that's not what happened.

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

I don't acknowlwdge the ret-con.

 

The Founding Menbers of the Justice League of America, as of The Brave and the Bold #28, 1960, were Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash; and telepaths Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, and Green Lantern. An unofficial 8th member was teen mascot "Snapper" Carr.

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

Additional: I too don't give a damn about retcons at this point. I stopped following DC in part because they couldn't keep their own new continuity straight.

 

Marvel lost me when every story started crossing over into a dozen different titles.

Re: What does a SuperTeam need?

Wonder Woman was sometimes a Telepath; I don't remember Green Lanter pulling telepathic tricks. On the other hand' date=' he may have; uber-ring and all.[/quote'] I think the list of three would be Wonder Woman because of her Magic Lasso, Aquaman because they sometimes let his fish telepathy work against people, and the Martian Manhunter for obvious reasons.

Re: College Professor Skill Level

I can see your point, but stand by the original comment - teaching and research obviously both cover a wide range of activities, but I have worked with excellent teachers who specialist knowledge was only about PhD student level: their skill was the ability to accurately and interestingly transmit what knowledge they had and to field questions they couldn't answer gracefully. I've also worked with brilliant scientists who simply were dreadful teachers. I'm not talking about an inability to communicate. They could, in some cases, communicate very effectively with their peers in a subject. But they couldn't (or wouldn't) teach.

 

The best teachers, of course are those who both like to teach and also know and love their subject, but not everybody can do this. So I'd rate those skills as complementary, but different, just as I have also worked with professors who are briliant adminstrators, but poor teachers and would rate teaching and administration as different skill sets.

 

cheers, Mark (WHO Distinguished Visiting Professor in Immunology )

As a student at a university and as a student and teacher at primary and secondary schools (and as someone who has discussed this very issue with several university instructors) - I have to say the most skilled teachers are definitely those at primary and secondary schools, in terms of methodology, whereas the greatest content expertise was definitely to be found at the university level. Frankly, I would say many teachers have a greater relative command of content than many university instructors have a command of teaching methodology.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Based on Chuckg's position, I alluded to this earlier but I think it should be mentioned again.

If I use his criteria, which McCoy and Suleyman Rashid both seem to support - enough that they wish to rep him for providing the criteria - then why haven't any of them nominated the bulk of conflicts between Galactus and Earth's Superheroes?

By their criteria, the Fantastic Four's continual success against Galactus is a much worse comic book superfight than Spidey vs. Firelord.

Marvel Earth should have been destroyed a long time ago - for continuity's sake.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

*I* don't consider them 'untouchable' either. I just want the 'touching' to be done at *MINIMUM* by guys like Thor' date=' not guys like Spider-Man.[/quote'] You can't always get what you want...

 

The Heralds' defenses have been conceded to be consistently inconsistent, if you will, is what I'm getting from this response.

 

IOW, Firelord isn't always as tough as the cherry-picked examples used that try to argue he couldn't be harmed by Spidey.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Spidey is pretty much the walking avatar of self-doubt and self-inflicted angst. There's also a fair amount of self-loathing, at least as regards the death of Uncle Ben. (Spidey has *never* forgiven himself for that, has he? Heck, I'm convinced that a lot of the problems in his life are unconscious self-sabotage, because he still feels he should be punished for it.) Odin isn't exactly known as a big fan of either emotion re: judging 'worthiness'.

 

'Tis a pity, because goodness knows that when it comes to the other heroic qualities, Spidey owns 'em in spades *and* clubs.

Very consistent with what I've read about Spider-Man.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

AVENGERS #260?

 

That's the assault on Sanctuary II. The moon-sized battle station built by Thanos as a near-invincible weapon of conquest. The artificial structure that, by itself, was considered to be of greater power than an entire Skrull starfleet.

Firelord gets hit by 'all the power we have to spare!' from this. Goes flying thousands of miles across space. Impacts like a meteor on the nearby moon.

And still has enough gas left to stagger dazedly to his feet' date=' spend four panels after impact getting back to his feet and conversing with the Beyonder, and only *then* collapse of his wounds[/b']. (That's on a following page).

Note' date=' being knocked back into a moon at orbital velocities, atomizes virtually any superhero you can name. Even most 'bricks'. Unless you're talking about characters in the Superman range or higher. That kind of impact would have completely pulped, oh, Titania. (Remember, simple one-mile fall KOs *her*.) This is nuclear-level impact.[/quote'] One mile falls and falling onto a moon aren't really that far apart in a comic book. And what's this "at orbital velocities" business about. You really read too much that's not there to pretend your opinion is fact.

 

Firelord was only Knocked Out' date=' and even then, not immediately, but only after staggering around a short while. IOW, even less quickly than Spidey supposedly KO'ed him.[/quote'] Are you sure? Did somebody have a watch going from panel to panel?

 

So' date=' ten quick punches from Spider-Man, supposed to carry more total force than a broadside from Sanctuary II? From Thanos' own pocket Death Star wannabe? [/quote'] Spacegun fires energy attack at powerful energy projector. Superhero w/awesome reserves of strength he sparingly uses heroically pounds powerful energy projector.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Agreed. He's also been shown as the poster child for equal dice luck & unluck' date=' which is why it is not unbelieveable that he could have kept from being fried by Firelord until the Avengers arrived while previously the Kingpin, never known as Mr. Agility, was able to clean his clock.[/quote'] The Kingpin is a mass of muscle with a little fat on the surface. He's also an extremely well trained martial artist. The fights I've seen with Spider-Man make it pretty clear to me that Spidey is pulling his punches, Kingpin isn't, and Spidey has a reason to get close to Kingpin instead of just avoiding him. 'Cuz if Spidey doesn't have a reason to get close to Kingpin, Kingpin isn't gonna touch him.

 

OK' date=' let's look in this issue. He gets hit by a train, a gas station blows up underneith him, neither causing him any visible distress, then he is laid out cold by an autofire Spiderpunch. Spiderman has enough reserves to outpunch a train? Takes all the suspense out of it when he goes up against an opponent who can't shrug off being hit by a train. [/quote'] Spidey has a code vs. killing. He doesn't haul off and hit everyone with everything he has. He doesn't want to take Kingpin's head off his shouders.

 

Spidey, in comic books I've read, has occasionally and not inconsistently lifted much more weight than the 10-20 tons people usually bring up. Spidey is scarier than the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe would suggest.

Re: College Professor Skill Level

Having read the responses, and thought about it a bit, I do think it would be a good idea to give two PS:s - one for teaching and one for research. They are largely unrelated skills and this would reflect the fact that it takes a bit more training to teach at college level than grade-school level.

 

Cheers, Mark

A college instructor can assume that his/her students already have a background in self-learning. College students may learn to use a library in a more sophisticated manner or learn a new style of documentation for their research papers but they generally won't be taught skills designed to show them how to read more effectively, take notes, and the like.

College instructors need to know more content but they really don't have to develop the skills to "rescue" a student who has poor learning skills.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Spider-Man has been consistently shown to be an expert "pusher" drawing on reserves 'he never knew he blah blah blah' so often that it is consistent.

Firelord's defenses and powers are simply not as consistently portrayed as you guys think based on my reads of the character, oh so many moons ago.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Yes, that's exactly what we want -- and it's what every other publisher of long-running episodic serial fiction (in whatever media) is expected to deliver, and the fans have every right to complain if they don't.

 

There is an argument that comics fans should just accept a status as second-class citizens, and learn to enjoy slushpile because hey, it's comics, and that means it *has* to be slushpile.

 

I think that argument is completely full of little red ants. We want good comics, and we have every right to expect them. And dumbing down our definition of 'good' to include stuff that ain't good, and pretending that's enough, will not satisfy us.

 

Your mileage may vary. But here's the kicker -- so will ours.

"Spider-Man has the flu with a 104 degree fever, he has cracked ribs from combat with the Scorpion, his arm is in sling from a gun wound caused by Kraven the Hunter, and now he's in a fight for his life against Electro in a power station who is physically stronger than he is and has a lethal ranged attack. In the old days, we would have Spider-Man find a way to win to show the indomitable spirit and desparate ingenuity that he's capable of - a hero of heroes - but that just isn't very plausible. Electro tosses out a barrage of lightning bolts and a weak, sickened Spider-Man dodges quite a few but just can't keep it up and is electrocuted. It's not very plausible that he would survive that so now Peter Parker is dead. Aunt May is heartbroken and dies within days of the discovery by the police that Peter is Spider-Man and that he is dead. Mary Jane is depressed and gets a little too obsessed with her career and turns to cocaine and becomes anorexic to boot. After a few years moving towards death's door, she recovers, and writes a book about her experiences promoting it with interviews on Good Morning America and Entertainment Tonight... right before Galactus shows up and eats the planet because it's just not very plausible than any group of Earth superheroes could stop him.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Sure. There's nothing quite as exciting as knowing exactly which opponent will win and which will lose before you read the story. Heck, they should having flashing neon numbers on the chests of each character representing their power rank so we can just skip reading the fight.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Spider-Man vs. Wolverine. There is no way Logan should have lasted as long as he did, and they had to make Spidey freak out like an ineffective neurotic wuss to have him accidentally kill Charlemagne like he did, when normally there's no way that simply being Flashed vs. Sight would cause him to panic like that.

 

This is an example of bad writer's fiat with Spidey on the *losing* end. Notice that I object to it just as much when Spidey is the victim as when he is the beneficiary. (Well, granted, I don't anticipate writing dozens of heated posts about it, but then again, I don't expect people to *argue* about it as much either. We can all agree Spidey got robbed here, right?)

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Yup. There *is* no explanation for Firelord's shot that's consistent with what's going on in the comic. That's the entire point -- that the writing sucks here. Every speculation I can come up with' date=' even the most generous, *still* don't fit. If we remove speculation from the table and go only with what's on the page, then Firelord is deliberately choking that shot for no reason whatsoever, which gets us right back to the writer's fiat tactical gimp theory.[/quote'] Still pretending that artwork in each panel is meant to be anaylized to some sort of exactitude.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

> 1) Even brutes like Rhino, Abomination, and Hulk have tried to

> collapse buildings on people on occasion. Not tactically gifted people

> to say the least.

 

Those guys often try to collapse buildings just for the indiscriminate rampaging effect. They don't wargame it out going 'ok, he's too agile to directly hit, I'll try getting him under the collapsing superstructure and then...'

 

> 2) He could've been on the 2nd floor looking down at Firelord. [snip]

 

Could've, could've, could've, could've. You've brought up (edited because otherwise somebody's going to try and nitpick my choice of wording, I just know it) many many "could'ves" before, none of which panned out. The biggest waste of time in this thread is the consistently around and around on every single one of your nit-picks, right down to truly ludicrous stuff like tailoring and laundry details. How's about you try something other than wildly speculating based on a guess, a prayer, and an out-of-context cherry-picked evidence bit for a change?

 

Try this for a change. Discuss *probabilities*, not mere *possibilities*.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

ASM #269, page 15, panel 4. Firelord fires a blast that takes out an entire four-story building. Spider-Man just barely manages to leap off the building in time before it explodes under him.

 

(add) Of course, maybe it wasn't Firelord. Maybe it was a demolition charge already in the building that Firelord just happened to hit. Because, of course, a guy who can fry cities and smash asteroids is absolutely incapable of destroying a small building unless somebody helps him by leaving a blockbuster bomb in it.

 

(add) Found a scan.

 

http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=26929mp.gif

 

BTW, yes, the sign does indeed say 'Blast Area'. So? Unless you're going to argue that Firelord isn't powerful enough to blow up a building, it means nothing. It merely explains how the writer could have Firelord blow up an entire building without killing any bystanders, the building was already condemned for demolition. (Not to mention that in ASM 270, we see that a building that's actually wired for demolition will have the demolition crews on-scene, and no such crew was present at this site.)

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

To expand on my earlier point re: inconsistent writing vs. flexible defenses...

 

If you have scenes on a page that can be explained one of two ways (either inconsistent writing or flexible defenses), what would be the logical thing to do? Repeat contradictions at each other forever? Um... nope.

 

You'd read the rest of the book to see if there were any inconsistencies or plot holes or gaping 'WTF?!?' unrelated to the issue of defenses. If there weren't, then that would tip the scale over to 'the writer must have had a good reason'.

 

If there were, then that would mean the preponderance of the evidence favored 'the writing was just plain sloppy'.

 

Of course, as we've been listing for the past few days, the entire damn comic is full of inconsistencies. Not just the one issue of Firelord's defenses. There's Firelord's offenses too. And his on-again-off-again-no-reason-for-it behavior. (No, 'Klingon honor code' doesn't work -- there is not one single word that I can find that indicates Firelord is respecting Spider-Man's honor in any way whatsoever. AAMOF, all the words I can find run more along Firelord holding Spidey as an insufferable figure of contempt.)

 

So, the preponderance of the evidence favors bad writing hypothesis, not the other one.