Agent X

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Just a little question here for everybody.

 

Going by Firelord's appearences besides the one we are arguing about, his durability would appear to be about the same level as Thor's, yes?

 

Could anyone except Spider-Man knocking out Thor like he did Firelord?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Lets look again.

 

(1) Spider Man is in the Rhino's league in terms of being able to do harm to Rhino with a punch.

(2) Rhino is in the Hulk's league in terms of being able to withstand a punch from the Hulk.

(3) Hulk is in Thor's league in terms of being able to do harm with a punch.

(4) Thor is in Firelord's league in terms of being able to do harm to Firelord with a punch.

 

One of these things is not like the others, Let's see. 1, 3, and 4 are about the ability to throw a punch, whis is what was emphasised as the point of this post. 2 is a sudden left turn about the ability to take a punch. Good try sneaking the orange in among the apples.

Spider-Man can take the Rhino down in one shot. The Rhino has withstood more than one of Hulk's shots. Now, follow me everyone before someone makes the insipid remark that I'm claiming something I'm not: Although Spider-Man is not capable of producing the kind of power the Hulk is, he is able to produce enough power if he hits the right spot to one-shot someone that can withstand a decent punch from the Hulk. Now, most folks (I hope) would say that, until Hulk really gets ridiculously enraged, Thor can hit as hard as the Hulk. That means Spider-Man can produce enough power if hits the right spot to one-shot someone that can withstand a decent strike from Thor. Again, before anyone gets silly, Spider-Man does not produce the kind of power that Thor can. Now, I hope you can keep up on this; Thor can produce the kind of power to take out Firelord with one blow. Spidey can't but it should be obvious that Spidey is in the right "range" based on past battles to plausibly give a telling barrage to the Firelord whose defenses were low enough for Thor to KO him. An important piece of evidence is this comic book you all know about that has Spider-Man do just that.

Back In The Day beverage cans were made of steel. Lots of jocks liked to crush the cans in their hands. When aluminum cans cam in, they could crush them in their hands too.

 

By your logic, if I can crush an aluminum can in my hand, and I can, then I should be able to crush a steel can, only more slowly.

No' date=' we're argueing that Spider-Man can't punch as hard as Thor, Hulk, or even the Thing.[/quote'] And I'm arguing he can punch hard enough to put stun on Firelord. And, if you can do that then all you have to do is hit enough times to get the guy down.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

And this is the "cleaned up" version.

 

Does raise an interesting question. Can Hulk punch hard enough to take himself out? Unless he CON-stunned himself with the first punch, he's going to keep getting madder, and stronger. Does this increased STR add to figured characteristics or not? If they do, then as he gets stronger, his PD, STUN and REC also increase. So can Hulk throw a punch hard enough to Knock himself out?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

No, he started off in Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #41-43. He was defeted when Spidy laced his webbing with an acid that made his armor brittle.

 

Mook In A Suit.

 

The logic I am finding hard to follow is that

 

- Thor has all but once failed to one-punch Firelord

 

- Hulk has, several times, failed to one-punch Rhino

 

Therefore, Rhino's defenses equal to or greater than Firelord's.

 

Like I said before, let's run them into each other, see who falls first.

 

I'm saying it's going to be the Mook in the Suit.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I would like to thank an acquaintance of mine on another message board for steering me to this site:

 

http://www.incrediblehulk.com/rhino.html

 

 

 

(note -- I snipped a few line items from that page that don't directly relate to the "Can Hulk KO Rhino?" question, such as the Doc Samson one and the one where they don't actually fight.)

 

Hrm. It would appear that the Hulk KTFOs the Rhino a /lot/ more often than he fails to affect him. He even beat the guy into a near-death coma once, that the Rhino didn't get out of for twenty issues. And while the Rhino usually lasts a few punches before falling over, there's at least one instance of the Hulk KO'ing the Rhino cold with his first shot.

 

This would seem the exact *opposite* of the Firelord/Thor/Hercules equation.

 

If anybody has more data on this point, feel free to add it on.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

One of the problems I think some folks are having is because they refuse to go beyond the labels.

Firelord is a Herald of Galactus.

Spider-Man is your Friendly Neighborhood Wall-Crawler.

One sounds much more impressive than the other but it's not a recognition of particulars.

Example: In Chess, the pawn is the weakest piece on the board yet it can capture any other piece in the right circumstances.

Comic Book Example: Golden Age Green Lantern is easily in a different league than the Fluoronic Man yet the Fluorinic Man could conceivably defeat the Golden Age Green Lantern because of how the two match up, given that Green Lantern's ring didn't work against wood.

This example: An enraged, arrogant Firelord wanted the satisfaction of beating down Spider-Man with his bare hands if he could get him to sit still long enough and Spider-Man was able to use blinding speed to beat down Firelord before Firelord realized he needed to use the Power Cosmic to defense himself.

If you don't like the story that's your prerogative but it doesn't mean the story isn't viable. If you argue that it isn't viable it is because you have chosen to create details that aren't facts to disprove the viability.

It has been demonstrated that Firelord can be KO'd by Thor quite handily. It doesn't matter if sometimes Firelord has higher defenses. If you want to pretend that his defenses are always higher because they haven't explained why he is sometimes hurt and sometimes isn't - then you are the one adding something new to the description of Firelord. What those of us who are willing to accept it are doing is providing an explanation that can be extrapolated from how we've seen the character, and characters like him, interact with others in the past.

IOW, you are the guys making stuff up.

Firelord got beat down. It happened. And, there is a plausible explanation of how his powers worked provided by his past statements, adventures, and the description and behavior of the Power Cosmic.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

But' date=' as shown earlier on this thread and in several different story arcs, Rhono is in the Hulk's league. Many other comments in this thread have linked Thor and the Hulk as having similar power levels, at least [b']when it comes to throwing punches[/b]. And most of the examples of Firelord's durability have been from Thor comics, giving the impression Firelord is in Thor's league.

 

Taken together, then:

 

- Spider Man is in the Rhino's league

- Rhino is in the Hulk's league

- Hulk is in Thor's league

- Thor is in Firelord's league

 

 

 

So show me where the clear, bright line between Spider Man's league and Firelord's league is drawn, given the above connections.

Notice the qualification in his entire post, "when it comes to throwing punches".

You have to ask yourself what league does Hugh mean? I believe anyone without the desire to belittle Hugh for daring to disagree with them would have come to the conclusion that the league he was speaking of was in terms of throwing punches. Now, he probably didn't sit down with his lawyer to write this up to avoid any willful misrepresentation so, yeah, he could have cleaned it up a bit. However, we've all been talking about this for quite some time so you guys knew what he meant anyway or you may wish to work on your reading comprehension skills.

So I'm going to clean it up for Hugh:

- Spider Man is in the Rhino's league in terms of being able to do harm to Rhino with a punch.

- Rhino is in the Hulk's league in terms of being able to withstand a punch from the Hulk.

- Hulk is in Thor's league in terms of being able to do harm with a punch.

- Thor is in Firelord's league in terms of being able to do harm to Firelord with a punch.

It stands to reason that the Hulk can do harm to Firelord with a punch.

Hulk can do harm to Rhino with a punch.

Spider Man can do harm to Rhino with a punch but not as much as Hulk can.

Therefore, there is reason to believe that Spider Man can do harm, but less harm, to Firelord as Thor can do harm to Firelord with a punch.

Does that mean Spider Man is in Firelord's league in terms of being roughly peers in combat? No. But it does mean the idea that Spider Man landing a rain of blows on Firelord would do enough harm to KO him is viable.

Now, are you guys arguing that the Hulk and Thor can't do harm to Firelord with punches?

Re: THE ULTIMATE SPEEDSTER -- What Do *You* Want To See?

Optional Rules that allow for more combat velocity without creating balance issues with move bys and move throughs.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

While jumping around like Spider-Man was? He isn't staying within arms' reach of Firelord for one continuous second, even, guy was bouncing around like a superball.

 

3 hard punches per second vs. a stationary target, like a speed bag, easy. 3 hard punches per second in a real street fight -- I don't think so. Toss in Spider-Man style acrobatics and I think even less so.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Even if we compress time to allow entire sentences to be spoken in one second (one Segment), that still reduces the rate of Spidey's punching to below 2-3 punches a second.

 

Also, I don't remember seeing boxers actually throw 2-3 punches a second while fighting in the ring. They can do it in exhibitions vs. the speed bag, yes, but not in fights.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

... standing still. Spidey needed time to jump around in between blows.

 

Also, unless Spidey can *TALK* at superspeed, some of those punches (the ones with dialogue) were *not* going at 2-3 punches a second, seeing as how he was finishing full sentences in between them.

 

And yes, I anticipate cries of 'but chuckg originally said it was a boxing match!!!!' now. Nope. Let's just get that plain. I said it was *like* a boxing in *some* respects... and clearly, unlike in some others.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

To be fair' date=' ChuckG is saying it DOES, but I am saying that I think it suggests a far greater number than a boxer.[/quote'] I think he wouldn't have come to that conclusion if he wasn't already set to minimize the numbers of blows to try to force a straw man Thor/Spidey equivalency argument on those who disagree with him.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

The phrase "rain of blows", when applied to two non-superspeedsters punching each other, means very much the same as when two normal humans are punching each other, yes. The superbeings might be throwing metahumanly-strong punches, and the boxers merely throwing humanscale punches, but that is a difference that does not invalidate this particular comparision. (After all, the one refers to how strong a punch is, and the other refers to how many punches are being thrown... do the two *have* to be connected? Nope.)

 

Your willful refusal to go there but instead your attempt to pretend that I was saying 'boxing match = superfight in all respects', I found very... well, let's just forget talking about what I found it to be, in order to avoid future hostility.

 

AAMOF, let's just drop this whole tangent, what do you say?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Firelord's arrogance has never forced him to be stupid in any other comic that I know about, and he's been arrogant in a *lot* of them.

 

If we have Tom DeFalco suddenly forcing uncharacteristic stupidity on Firelord to make him fall to Spidey, then voila, that's jobbing!

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Why does Pete has to have a solo victory? Isn't keeping from killing people till the Avengers show up heroic enough?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

How's about "Ten blows is the only # of blows that can actually be seen on that page?" Any blows above that have to be imagined.

 

I still don't see what is so vastly unreasonable about saying that something isn't on the page when it's not on the page.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

> These statements rely on one side's perceptions of Firelord's supposed

> supreme invulnerability

 

No one has claimed that Firelord has 'supreme' invulnerability. No one has claimed that Firelord is supreme, for that matter.

 

You seem to be unable to draw the mental distinction between "cannot credibly be beaten by Spider-Man" and "cannot credibly be beaten by anyone".

 

> and giving no credit whatsoever to Spider-Man's consistent ability to

> increase his power when truly enraged.

 

Are we back to claiming that Spidey is as powerful as Thor or Hercules or the Hulk when he 'stops holding back'? Are you unable to accept that some people don't find such a claim any more credible?

 

> I can only assume that you don't think he could beat him at all.

 

No, we don't. It would be like Daredevil beating Ben Grimm in a boxing match -- just no way. (Unless Ben was in *human* form, of course, but we call that 'powering down'.)

 

> What could Spider-Man possible do now that you're side has declared that

> Firelord is essentially invulnerable to everything short of nuke.

 

Well, an enraged Thor isn't *quite* a nuke, so he exaggerates a bit there. MOABs, on the other hand...

 

> Please tell me then how Spider-Man is supposed to beat him then.

 

He's not. Yes, the writer wrote Spidey supposedly doing it anyway. That's our point -- that something was written that simply isn't consistent with Firelord's other appearances. There is no believable way

 

> Isn't dropping a building on him enough, not to mention the other stuff he

> put him through before going into straight up beatdown mode?

 

Given that this is a guy who can be body-slammed thousands of miles across space to crash into moons, and still stagger away from the landing? A falling building is supposed to help KO somebody who survives orbital re-entry with his face? Yeah, right!

 

> Let us see...a solid punch from Thor can stun Firelord...but dozens of

> frantic Spidey haymakers at once can't affect him at all?

 

Unless a "frantic Spidey haymaker" is supposed to be as strong or stronger than a solid punch from Thor... no.

 

> (Gosh, I'd hate to be a speedster in your game) What else could he

> possibly do?

 

Stall Firelord, heroically and repeatedly risking his own life to keep Firelord away from innocent bystanders, until the cavalry gets there? (See "New Warriors vs. Terrax, the rematch")

 

Display such courage and heart, even in physical defeat, that he wins Firelord's respect? (See "Daredevil vs. Namor")

 

Find a handy cosmic MacGuffin and thraten Firelord with it? (See "Fantastic Four vs. Galactus, Round One")

 

That's three things I can think of right there that would work even against the most invulnerable verson of Firelord I can think of. Not all victories involve simply punching a dude in the face. And if it's good enough for the Fantastic Four or Daredevil, it's good enough for Spider-Man.

 

> Is Thor going to let him borrow Mjolnir?

 

If Thor's there, doesn't that count as the cavalry arriving?

 

> Will Reed Richards give him access to his labs so he can devise a small

> nuke?

 

That would be 'Handy Cosmic MacGuffin', I believe.

 

> Gee though, even if those ridiculous things happened, Spider-Man wouldn't

> actually be defeating Firelord by himself would he?

 

Where is it written that Spidey has to be able to smoke anybody in the Marvel Universe in a one-on-one?

 

I mean, in this corner... Batman. In that corner... Darkseid. (Pre-Crisis original Kirby version. You know, the badass one.)

 

Batman is screwed. Even if we spot Batman a Mother Box and a pair of Boom Tube gloves, Batman is still officially screwed. Even if we spot Batman a double overdose of clever-dickishness and start Darkseid off looking the other way, Batman's still totally hosed. We're talking "Daredevil vs. Thanos" level of hosed here.

 

I don't think you'd find very many Batman fans who'd be majorly offended that Batman can't win this one without help, though. I mean, it's Darkseid. Losing to him, not exactly a mark of shame. Not if you're at Batman's power level, anyway.

 

Likewise, Firelord is a Herald of Galactus. Being physically overmatched by him is no humiliation to anyone, except to people who are supposed to be cosmic or near-cosmic bangers in their own right. Which Spidey ain't. Spidey's the everyday joe with a few superpowers and a heart as big as New York City. He's not the Silver Surfer.

Gary already blasted much of this stuff about orbital re-entry.

Spidey is not an everyday joe with a few superpowers and a heart as big as New York City. Spidey is a guy who thinks he's an everyday joe with a few superpowers who is actually quite a bit more powerful than he estimates himself. Does an everyday joe design web-shooters in high school when he decides he needs them to go along with his new spider powers?

I agree with the heart as big as New York City, though not literally.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I can manage pretty okay on an 1 or 2 myself.

 

Not every day mind you, but I've gone months getting only 2-3 hours a night. It's kinda surprising what the human body can do if it has too.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I've asked you before. Please show me a single time when Firelord has used his damage shield against a character.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I had <2 hours of sleep.

Is that normal for you?

I know some people function pretty well like that. Winston Churchill did that during WWII and wasn't much the worse for wear and I've heard Michael Landon claim that he slept anywhere from about 2 to 3 1/2 hours a day and felt fine.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Damn, people...400+ posts?

 

Can't a guy go to bed and try to get a little work done?

 

I can't keep up. I'm going back to bed.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I'm not about to compare if you're asking for that. No one would be happy. Not that I haven't been an *** in other arguments myself. I'm just hoping to have avoided it so far in this one.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I apparently have offended you with my intellectual elitism. Its true, though. I find, in general, that people who believe in foolish things are foolish themselves and time and test have born it out. If that is elitist of me and arrogant, then so be it. I don't have time to meddle with those I see as fools.

 

Argue in a manner that is not foolish, basing and supporting your argument in a clear and factual manner, and I will respect your opinions to the end of days regardless of whether or not I agree. Argue from an absence of base and a willing stubbornness to ignore that baselessness, and I will think you foolish.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

The right to believe in something foolish does not stop that thing from being foolish' date=' and while we're talking about rights, I have every right to think that someone I see as believing something foolish is being foolish.[/quote'] See what I mean, Z?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

The point I was making is that if it is part of his VPP (speculation, note the word If), he can switch the VPP rapidly. If his defenses are in a VPP, the explanation given for why they vary, and some STUN is 'leaking through," and he was not stunned by one haymaker or KO'ed by by followup kick, why in the name of Galactus did he not increase his defenses?

 

Only explanation, he is under writer-mandated fiat to ack like a mook.