Andrew Cermak

Re: A stunning attack

According to FRED, Characteristics can't be Dispelled. Suppress with a Limitation to reflect the quick recovery would get you similar results, though.

Re: Shapeshifting

If you can change shape, actually change shape, it HAS to affect every sense OR PART OF A SENSE that detects reflected energy or actual mass. I can't even begin to imagine how to build that. Try it. I bet I (or someone with more imagination) can think of a sense that SHOULD detect shape that you've missed. Even if you get them all, all it takes is someone to buy spacial awareness and plonk it in an unusual sense gruop, and you've missed it. It really shouldn't be that difficult (or expensive) to build a power that is really quite simple in concept.

That's easy. Multiform.

I mean, honestly, if your shapechange is really so thorough that no possible exercise of any sense can possibly see through it (Detect Flesh won't work, cause I'm made of wood, Detect Human won't work, cause I'm actually a dog) then your stats should change to accomodate these physical, mental, and spiritual changes. That's Multiform.

Re: Shapeshifting

The dichotomy for me is very simple.

 

I buy Shape Shift vs Touch. That's it. One sense.

 

Everyone seems to agree that this means my shape actually changes. If my shape has actually changed, why does it not appear so to Sight?

Because without it, everyone who looks at you will think "That's a dude in the shape of a chair/baseball bat/dog. Gross!"

Nobody will be fooled into thinking you're anything but what you are: a guy who can mold his body like putty. Not so useful for hiding or sneaking around.

Re: Shapeshifting

That's what I already said! Yes, I would allow an any shape SS to form a ladder that other's could climb, but if he wants the ladder to reach from the ground to the top of a ten-story building, he would need Stretching as well (or Growth), and probably some extra STR. Yes, I would allow him to form a bucket to carry water, but he couldn't carry more than he could with his STR, nor could he carry acid or boiling water without buying the appropriate defenses (or taking the damage). Yes, I would allow him to form a canoe, but he couldn't support the weight of more than he could with his STR, nor could he paddle faster than his usual inches of Swimming. etc.

For the record, I more or less agree with all of this, with the only question being whether the SFX of the Shape Shift warrant it (illusionary Shape Shifts obviously would not).

Hooray for effects-based systems! I'm all for 'em. But for 44 points, I want to be able to do more than just "deceive senses," which I could do with Images, No Range for a lot fewer points.

Not to the extent that Shape Shift fools them, though.

I think comparing the costs of Shape Shift and Invisibility would be more instructive. Shape Shift (any shape) can be as or more functional then Invisibility.

Re: Shapeshifting

But the Shape Shift RealLemming described did not have Sight Group, only Touch Group. As such, he should not be able to change the manner in which he is perceived by sight, only the manner in which he is perceived by touch.

 

Not so. The fact that he hasn't bought it vs. Sight simply means that people aren't fooled into thinking he's a baseball bat when they look at him. It doesn't mean he doesn't look different than a normal human. The FAQ quite clearly states that Shape Shift vs. Touch changes a character's physical form.

Re: Shapeshifting

If I can make Plasticman's shape shifting ability with the Shape Shift power, then there is something wrong with that power.

Plastic Man's power isn't Shape Shift. Plastic Man's power is Plasticity. Shape Shift is merely one of the myriad applications he puts it toward.

The problem is not with Shape Shift the Power. The problem is with people thinking that Shape Shift is all they should need to be Plastic Man.

(And you can't use Entangle to make Spider-Man's webs. You also need Swinging, Gliding, HA, Stretching and/or TK, Flash, and a host of other powers. That's what effects-based systems are about. You sample the various Powers to build the final power you want. Plastic Man is no different.)

Re: Shapeshifting

What shape does it appear to be? Presumably human shaped. If it was otherwise' date=' i.e. it appeared very tall and thin then it could use that to hide behind lamp posts, and we didn't pay the points for that. [/quote']

 

No, it's baseball bat shaped. You can use Shape Shift to make yourself up to 10% taller and 10% thinner, and you certainly aren't required to keep your legs, head, and arms distinct.

 

If you listen you hear a heartbeat...which is not possible because the sound would be transmitted through the flesh as vibration, and our touch sense already knows that the thing is not vibrating.

 

Turning yourself into a baseball bat isn't possible either. Arguing what's realistically possible when it comes to Shape Shift is a no-go.

 

 

OK scrap that and let's look at sight, so to speak. You see the overall shape and colour. Colour is important. If someone with shape shift (sight group only AND imitation) doesn't actually change shape but does change colour to match the background they become effectively invisible...but we can't do that as Invisibility is already used for chameleon powers, but they've got to be able to do it: if you can shape shift to appear to the sight group to be a wall then that includes apparent colour and texture, not just overall shape.

 

 

There's a difference between being able to change color and being able to change color well enough to be effectively invisible. Regardless, per the FAQ Shape Shift can give bonuses to Stealth and Concealment, so there's where color-matching fits in.

Re: Shapeshifting

Even given your example (which btw I think is a fine way to approach it, I'm just exploring it in the above paragraph), I think the bigger issue is that for the effect you describe, one still has to buy a slew of effects to counter it as opposed to the implications of the "good old days" of 4th. I think that's what disturbs me; with all other powers that are so physical, we say (in essence) "The power must be visible in 3 Sense Groups."

Well, that's what's done with all Powers that aren't defined as Sense-Affecting. Shape Shift is defined as Sense-Affecting, so the question is whether that's appropriate.

I think it is. It seems to me that the primary purpose of a shapeshift is deceptive. Any other benefits of shapeshift can easily be simulated with other Powers if that's all I'm after. The only benefit to *looking* like something else (or sounding, or smelling, or feeling...), rather than simply having the abilities of something else, is to fool other people into thinking that I am that something else.

If it's meant to fool the senses, it should be defined as Sense-Affecting. And if it's defined as Sense-Affecting it should interect with the senses just like other Sense-Affecting Powers do: on a Group by Group basis.

EDIT: Actually, I'm wrong. Shape Shift isn't defined as Sense-Affecting. That does make it a valid question as to why it interacts with Senses differently than other non-Sense-Affecting Powers. Perhaps it should be Sense-Affecting.

Re: Shapeshifting

*checks the FAQ*

Wow, the FAQ has a lot more about Shape Shift than I remembered. In fat, I'd say it resolves the amibguities of the Power quite clearly.

Caris, I think the "Shape Shift vs. Touch fools non-Discriminatory Radar" can be assumed to be a Shape Shift only ruling, given the nature of that Power. I'd ask Steve if you were unsure, though.

Re: Shapeshifting

One thing about Shape Shift that I think could use clarification (perhaps in the Ultimate Metamorph) is what Shape Shift vs. Sight gets you as opposed to Shape Shift vs. Touch.

Many people seem to assume that to actually be the shape of the object you Shape Shift into you have to buy Shape Shift vs. Touch. I question that; the shape of an object can easily be determined by Sight, after all.

Taking Hugh's baseball example, let's say a character has bought Shape Shift vs. Sight (baseball) but not Touch (and he's bought enough Shrinking to be baseball-sized).

To me, the character is in fact the shape of a baseball. Anyone picking him up, however, will feel that he's warm, that he's covered in minute hairs, that he feels fleshy in some spots and bony in others, and they'll even be able to feel his heartbeat pulsating. They'll instantly know that this is *not* a baseball, but that doesn't mean that they can feel tiny arms and a head.

Does that seem reasonable, or would you all require the Touch group for the character's shape to be genuine rather than illusory?

Re: Shapeshifting

Friends again,then?

Sure thing!

Re: Shapeshifting

Interesting attitude.

 

Most constructive.

 

You've completely convinced me. I mean I balked at some of the personal insults there, but now I see that it was just done to make me a better person. Hopefully one day everyone who plays HERO will agree, and that day will last a thousand years.

Hmmm.

I don't think your martyrdom here is completely warranted, given your own admitted testiness in the previous post, and the straw man that is your last sentence certainly isn't warranted.

That said, I certainly didn't mean to escalate any negativity in this discussion, and I apologize for having done so.

Re: Shapeshifting

What Shape Shift seems to do is provide Images, Self Only, no range, No PER Roll. If I want to be perceived as something I'm not, limited Images seems a very effective means under the rules as written.

 

Actually changing your physical shape seems, to me, a completely different ability. I don't "look like" a baseball - you can actually pitch me as I am shaped axactly like a real baseball.

That's why there's no PER Roll. It's assumed to be an actual change, so it can't be "seen through," except using Sense Groups your change doesn't cover.

So how is Shape Shift different from Images to the same sense groups, with a huge negative PER modifier? All we seem to need is a "no PER roll" advantage for images and the current Shape Shift is redundant. But someone who actually wants a character who can change shape - well, too bad!

There are a lot of Powers that could be eliminated by using Advantages and Limitations on other Powers. Shape Shift is a separate Power because it uses somewhat different rules assumptions than Images and because it is convenient to separate them. The alternative would be another Healing/Regeneration style combo power which would certainly displease as many or more people as it pleased.

Whyen Plastic Man shapeshifts into a bucket in the comics, you can use him to carry water. When he shape shifts using Hero rules, well gosh he sure LOOKED like a bucket.

That fits under the SFX of his Shape Shift. A bucket-shaped character being able to carry water like a bucket is not worth points (though he will need Shrinking to reduce his size and mass enough to actually be carried by anyone other than the team brick).

Super-Illusion Man, though, couldn't carry the water. He just looks exactly like a bucket.

EDIT: OTOH, if Plastic Man wanted to shape shift into a giant bucket with legs and act as his own massive mobile water-carrying device, I'd probably require him to use his VPP to buy No Range Telekinesis Affects Porous. Shape Shift shouldn't be used as a cheap VPP, and I get the sense that a lot of people seem to want to use it that way.

Re: Shapeshifting

Tosh. A physical energy blast or an energy energy blast do exactly what they say on the box. Kinetic energy is energy as much as radiation is. The name of the power is supposed to give a pretty big clue as to what it does' date=' and if it doesn't there is probably a really good reason, and by good I mean bad.[/quote']

 

And Shape Shift changes shape. That it doesn't do out-of-the-box every aspect of shape-changing you want is part and parcel of an effects based system.

 

 

You seem to be arguing both sides here.

 

Not at all. I'm pointing out that NSHG's alternate identity isn't fundamentally different than a guy putting on a suit of power armor. If you're making the former buy Shape Shift (and I wouldn't), then you have no reason not to make the latter as well, and that just shows how silly the idea is.

 

My contention is that shapeshift costs too much, that's my side. Oh, and it doesn't do what it says on the box.

 

Shape Shift does exactly what Shape Shift is described as doing. Your preconceptions are irrelevant.

 

 

SS at present is a perfectly valid way to represent NSHG or Tommy Storks ability to look different.

 

It is, if they use them as Super-Disguises. But they don't. (And they'd be foolish to, given their Secret IDs.)

 

 

In fact, let's forget it is called shapeshift and let us call it 'Be Perceived Differently Power' (a catchy name I think you'll agree) because that is what it does. Mind you, to actually make anyone pay for this would be high order lunacy...and that is the core of my objection to the new way it is done.

 

Making someone pay to be perceived as having a different hair-style would be lunacy. Making them pay to be perceived as a rock, or a tree, or wall-painting is totally reasonable. People don't generally attack rocks or trees or paintings for no reason, or give them more than a cursory look.

 

M'kay, so what are you saying it is about NEW! IMPROVED! shape shift that justifies the cost? Looking like someone specific is a single 10 point adder. That is the main utility in the power and as I suggested earlier should probably cost MORE, but shape shift in itself is of very limited use, if you leave imitation aside.

 

Shapeshift is one of a small handful of powers with no effect on combat, and all the other ones (Mind Link, Clairsentience, Mind Scan) are all pretty darned useful for the poiints.

 

So what does shape shift (sans imitation) do? Not a lot, really.

 

This betrays a startling lack of imagination. Without imitation, Shape Shift can be used to hide, spy, shadow, trigger Psych Lims, draw enemies into traps, pull Trojan Horse ploys, get access to restricted areas. Even a one shape, Sight only Shape Shift can be nearly as good as Invisibility if the right shape is chosen.

 

Stuff like you can modify your COM. No one uses COM anyway 99% of the time. No biggie. Extra PRE attack dice too. You can squeeze through tiny gaps (I was never entirely happy letting that one got to desolid, it is just that is how it was always done...it is clearly changing shape) You can hide stuff inside you. You are utterly impossible to arm lock or choke. Give that a basic cost, 30 points and say that if you change shape, your shape is *&%$£!*& well changed, and every sense that can discern shape knows it. Limitations for limited scope (limited number of forms or whatever) advantage for imitation (+1/2). We'll keep the cellular adder and say that if someone with it changes into a chair, to all intents and purposes they appear to be made of wood. True shapeshifters ignore increased or decreased damage due to hit location. Whatever, but it should be something unique that doesn't feel like half the other powers. We can have an adder to change scent, or maybe another power entirely. Change scent. 10 points. That was easy.

 

This is caused-based thinking, not effects based. You just described a Heroes Unlimited Power, not a Hero Power.

 

And you under-charged for it.

 

And this is *not* how 4E Shape Shift worked. If you thought it gave players an immunity to Grabs and the ability to squeeze through any crack for 30 points, you read it wrong, 'cause the description sure as heck doesn't say that.

Re: Shapeshifting

I don't think its unreasonable for the Power name to be related to the default effects of the Power. If the Power is called Telekinesis, I'm expecting to move things without touching them. If a Power is called Flight, I'm expecting some kind of aerial movement. If the Power is called Shape Shift, I'm expecting to be able to shift my shape. Otherwise we might as well rename all the powers into un-pronouncable characters (eg The Power Formally Known as EnergyBlast).

This is a red herring, because Shape Shift *does* change one's shape, from a sensory standpoint. The problem is that people keep wanting to project different functions on top of it instead of looking at additional Powers like they should (or, conversely, they mistakenly think they *have* to buy Shape Shift to be able to do non-functional, completely SFX related appearance changes like glowing eyes or fake breasts).

Re: Shapeshifting

Gaaaakkk! That's it though, isn't it? Back to Plastic Man, (practically) everything he does is a sfx for some other power: force wall, entangle, stretching: what is the game effect beyond the base power? Nothing, it's sfx: THE SHAPE SHIFT adds nothing, certainly if built the way HERO currently advocates, so I maintain that one of the best comic book examples of a shapeshifter doesn't have HERO shapeshifting.

Energy Blasts often aren't energy blasts, either. If you're getting hung up on the names of the Powers, you're not taking the proper perspective on the system.

NSHG's change is not just a Clark Kent 'put on a suit and glasses' thing, it is a bolt of lightning, dividing a huge muscly God from a wimpy looking normal. He doesn't have powers in both forms. It is a real shape shift. Game effect is minimal.

If game effect is minimal, it's not a Power. Electro-Eye Blast Man can make his eyes glow blue. That's a "power," but it's not a Power. It doesn't do anything for him. It's a special effect.

The switch from Don Bloke to Norse Storm Hammer God is only a Power to the extent that increases his Characteristics and lets him control the weather. He doesn't have to pay extra for the physical change any more than Tommy Stork has to pay extra to change his appearance when he puts on or takes off his armor.

*Are* you making Tommy Stork buy Shape Shift (armored form) OIF Armor? Why not? Certainly no one looking at Tommy Stork is able to visually connect him to Powered Armor Man. Powered Armor Man might be able to infiltrate an enemy base in his Tommy Stork guise. Should he pay points for the privilege?

Re: Shapeshifting

How many senses should Shape Shift: Fake Breasts account for?

 

It's not just higher COM with SFX - after all, many aren't affected by that COM-wise (no rude puns, please....).

 

It doesn't cost much as it's very limited part, only one shape, but it costs more for the various senses - they would be seen as breasts by most means.

This is not a Power, unless you can tell me what the game effect is.

It's certainly not Shape Shift. Possibly a bonus to Disguise Rolls, only to Disguise oneself as a woman.

Re: Shapeshifting

OK...

 

NSHG gets practically KO'd by the stun lottery, and he hadn't even bought a ticket. He ducks around a corner, chased by the CheeseMonger, who always uses killing attacks for this very purpose, and there is a crowd of normals. Thinking fast, NSHG changes into wimpy normal who is two foot shorter and completely nondescript, thinking that the CheeseMonger, who doesn't have AE attacks and didn't see him change, is going to have to kill his way through half the crowd before he finds him becasue the change is a flawless self only image: more than enough time to make any number of recoveries then...

You don't have to pay points to look like a normal person out of costume (and Norse Storm Hammer God is essentially a costume). Everyone without Distinctive Features is assumed to look like a normal person.

EDIT: Also, the change back and forth between identities is assumed to take time (just like a costume-change). If the character hasn't bought Instant Change (Don Bloke's clothes to Norse Storm Hammer God's battle gear and back) I wouldn't let him do it in the middle of a fight, at least not without a significant chance of being caught and ruining his Secret ID.

EDIT2: Finally, if the player insists on trying to use the switch back and forth between identities as a disguise, then yes, I'd make him buy Shape Shift. But that's not required by the concept, that's a player trying to get extra mileage out of his special effect. Fine once or twice, but after that you cough up the points.

Re: Shapeshifting

Read Steve's answer again carefully. He also mentions this is a way to gain access to things not normally permitted in a VPP such as frameworks. But it is technically legal.

It reads to me like he said VPP is a poor method because different forms may require Frameworks that a VPP can't provide. Which says to me that he understood the pool as being used to directly buy the alternate form's Powers rather than being used to buy a Multiform.

Re: Shapeshifting

The difference is that the VPP allows the player to tweak and customize the forms every time he uses them.

 

"Since we're facing Dr. Somnus, I'm including LS: Does Not Sleep in my Warrior Gollum form this time."

A character with a regular VPP can pull that stunt anyway. In fact, he can cut out the middle man and just add it to his base form AND give it to all his friends.

Re: Shapeshifting

Did anyone else find Steve's answer odd? I hope I'm just mis-reading his answer' date=' but it seemed to imply that the alternate forms would be limited to 60 points, and not 60*5, and that because the Multipower was being purchased through a VPP that the alternate forms couldn't buy anypowers that a VPP would be restricted from buying. While the later part seems reasonable, I'm not sure about the point thing.[/quote']

 

I think Steve misunderstood "Multiform only" to be a special effect limitation; in other words, he read it as a VPP used to simulate a "Multiform" rather than one that can only be used to buy the Power Multiform.

Re: Shapeshifting

That's a bit disingenius in that even with Multiform, characters aren't typically losing sentience and awareness when turning into a statue or whatever. Even most Multiformers don't really become what they resemble, they merely resemble it. To truly become something, Transform is typical, although I well grant that as one can't self-Transform that in those cases Multiform is the recommended solution.

Well, I didn't say "Shape Shifters" (as in characters with the Shape Shift Power), I said "shapeshifters," referring to fictional characters with the ability to take on other forms.

I think this depends - what do you mean by "truly"?

By "truly" I mean "not cosmetically." Becoming something else to the extent that Characteristics, Powers, and Disadvantages should logically change.

Here's where the issue comes in; to appear as something but not actually be it, I have to spend for all sorts of senses, even regular ones which in theory should be carried along for the ride. Of course we can hand-wave per SFX (we can just say that Touch group includes Radar and Spatial Awareness while Sight includes Clairsentience, for example), but then why bother with the SFX-based approach the way it's presented at all and why not simply enforce that the Shape Shift be visible to 3 Senses as with most powers? This also reduces confusion with Images although it continues to preserve the distinction.

I don't see how the current Shape Shift is "SFX-based." It seems to be the opposite to me. You buy the power based on the sense groups it deceives. That's game effect.

Regarding having to buy "all sorts of Sense Groups," there are only five (disregarding Mental, which few shapeshifters can affect), and you get the extra four at a discount. It's not as prohibitive as you imply.

Re: Shapeshifting

In order, if I may....

1) actually, yes...they do.

Name them.

Thats the point, aside from retaining sentience and an awareness of surroundings a shapeshifter *is* something else. A shapeshifter that transforms into a chair is actually made of wood.

Then he gained a Vulnerability to fire? His defenses and Body changed? He gained the No Hit Locations and Cannot Be Stunned powers? His Movement rates dropped to zero?

If so, sounds like a Multiform. If not, it doesn't appear he's made out of wood after all.

3) Becoming another creature or person entirely is the purpose of Multi-Form. Becoming something else entirely is the purpose of shapeshift. Just as Energy Blast and RKA are different takes on a similiar power.

No. Appearing to be something else is the purpose of Shape Shift. Becoming something else is the purpose of Multiform. Looking at the game effects makes that quite obvious.

Re: Shapeshifting

The point here is that very often - if not typically -the Shape Shifter has truly changed shape and buying every Sense is becoming very expensive, as opposed to defining how one might trip up the Shape Shifter. Fundamentally, paying for every sense when in fact the being has actually changed shape seems like an ill-advised way to handle this as it's needlessly over-complicated. It's easier to handle the reality that very often a shape-shifter is a different shape, he doesn't just "appear" to be. And there are huge distinctions between appearing to be something and actually being it; Images covers pretty well the distinction when something merely appears as another thing. Shape Shift is either a needless extension of Images or it is actually very much a different power.

 

The Shape Shifter isn't merely disguising or concealing, they are often becoming something else that is, usually aside from some specifically-designed flaw as I've most often seen it, indistinguishable from others of that object.

Actually, that's an entirely different point than the one I was addressing. What you're saying here has nothing to do with the differences between an appearance change that should cost points and one that shouldn't, which is what my post was about.

But I'd point out that:

1) Most shape shifters don't actually become the things they turn into, or else they'd lose all sentience and awareness of their surroundings when they turned into a chair or a mailbox.

2) In game terms, there isn't always a difference between looking like something else and being something else.

3) Truly becoming something else is the purpose of Multiform, not Shape Shift.

Re: Shapeshifting

 

My point is we have been giving this away without unbalancing the game, why does it cost so much now? Shapeshift IS a SFX in most cases, and should be costed appropriately.

 

Changing to Norse Storm Hammer God doesn't help you escape notice or disguise yourself; if anything, Norse Storm Hammer God is more likely to attract unwanted attention.

The point of Shape Shift (the Power) is that it's a Sense-fooling ability. It's a flawless self-only Image. If your shapeshift doesn't help your character disguise or conceal himself, than you're looking at the wrong Power. You may not even need to buy a Power at all.