Andrew Cermak

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Right, so Spidey actually hit him a hundred times, but we never actually see it happen or hear it happen. We just wish it so, via the power of magic fairy dust!

 

If you want to dispute the punch count, post the scans of the page yourself and get out your chalkboard pointer. Until then, forget it.

The evidence is the fact that Firelord went down. Spidey hit him enough times to bring him down, plus a few while he was still angry.

However many that is, the artist probably couldn't have drawn it and made it an effective scene; it would have been a lot, and the pacing would have been ruined.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You can't use 'quantity' to explain *this* incongruity, because Spidey put Firelord into this state with his first or second hit.

There's no reason to.

First, Firelord was surprised when Spidey attacked him. He thought he'd put an end to the fight by drawing Spidey out where there was nowhere to hide. He didn't expect to be blitzkrieged.

Second, that the artist doesn't draw Firelord swiping at Spidey while being blitzed doesn't mean he wasn't swiping at Spidey. As the earlier Thor 2 scan shows, artists don't always draw the victim of a speed blitz fighting back even when he is fighting back. Artistic decisions.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

And if we accept this as true' date=' then this would mean that Thor would need substantially less than ten punches to KO Firelord, as ten punches is all it took Spidey.[/quote']

 

Counting sound effects is not counting punches. They can hardly fill a panel with lettered sound effects. Artistic decisions, remember?

 

We don't know how many times Spidey hit Firelord, any more than we know how many hits, say, Flash lays down when he speedblitzes someone. We just know it was a lot.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

You've made this assertion a couple of times already. Back it up. Give me an issue number where Cap KO'd Rhino and I can have a friend check it out.

I'd like to see this as well.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

What' date=' that 'made up in quantity what he lacked in quality' stuff? *That* was your answer? [/quote']

 

Did you see the first word in that response? Read it again. Read it as many times as it takes you to understand. Take one letter at a time, if you must.

 

You're the same guy who argued that Thor would have KO'ed Firelord if their fights had gone longer. So, with the one side of your mouth, you argue that Thor himself needs to up quantity to KO Firelord.

 

With the other side of your mouth, you say that Spider-Man can make up for lack of Thor quality by upping his quantity.

 

It don't frickin' add up. And note, this isn't you contradicting me, this is you contradicting yourself.

 

 

In your imagination, perhaps.

 

Spidey must hit Firelord more than Thor would need to to knock him out because Spidey does not hit as hard as Thor.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Spidey is supposed to be punching as hard as Thor, yes or no? Or are you finally saying 'yes'?

I already answered that the first time you asked it. If you'd read a whole post you'd know that.

But don't strain yourself or anything.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

BTW, if all you can do is beat the 'anybody who doesn't see it our way MUST be blind' drum, then that's not debate, that's just childish flaming.

You're not blind for disagreeing. You're blind for ignoring those who disagree with you, for refusing to answer questions put to you because you refuse to allow that they might be relevant. It's willful blindness, the worst kind, and you wallow in it.

Again, the simple question that you seem entirely unable to answer -- Spidey is supposed to be punching as hard (or harder, but let's keep this simple!) as Thor, yes or no?

Answered that already, Chuckg. Take the blinders off.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

This seems, to me, to establish that Firelord is far from the only character who has withstood one or more hits from Thor or the Hulk (similar hitting power) and yet been taken down by SpiderMan or Captain America.

 

In other words, the Rhino (and Titania?) have durability similar to Firelord, based on both (all three?) having taken hits from Thor/the Hulk to no apparent effect. They also have been portrayed as taking at least some STUN leaking through blows from SpiderMan. How is this inconsistent?

 

[nb: I suspect if we look hard enough, some scenes where Rhino and.or Titania are stunned by the occasional strike by Thor/Hulk will also be found, completing the comparison.]

 

If other characters whose durability suffices to enable them to shrug off strikes from Thor/Hulk are able to be affected by Spidey, it is, in fact, inconsistent writing if the similarly durable Firelord CANNOT take Stun from Spidey.

Exactly. Despite Chuckg's blind insistence to the contrary, the quality of Spidey's opposition outside of Firelord is quite germane to this discussion. In fact, it's at the very heart of it.

I mean, that's the objection, right? That Firelord is somehow out completely beyond Spidey's weight class?

Showing that Firelord is very much within Spidey weight class by showing who else he's been able to leak Stun on (Thor II, Rhino, Titania) shows how inaccurate that idea is.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

* Firelord has enough durability that lets him avoid being KTFO'ed even by an enraged Thor or Hercules, yes or no?

That has most definitely *not* been established. If Thor can stun Firelord, he can knock him out. That their disagreements have been resolved before that happens doesn't establish that it was impossible.

* Spider-Man KTFO'ed Firelord, yes or no?

You know he did.

You've also shown why there's no arguing this with you, and it has nothing to do with the plausibility of the fight.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Answer me, if you would:

Does the Hulk hit about as hard as Thor?

Can the Rhino withstand a hit from the Hulk?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

* Spidey is supposed to be punching as hard or harder than Thor or Hercules, yes or no?

No. He made up in quantity what he lacked in quality.

* Such a thing, if true, would be even remotely believable, yes or no?

No, it wouldn't be believeable if Spidey hit as hard as Thor. But he didn't have to. Firelord is not invulnerable to Spidey's hardest hits any more than the Rhino is.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

We have said this at least six times by now. And yet *you* pretend that we're talking about Thors' or Hercules' *durability*? And in the same breath, accuse *me* of trying to confuse the issue? Where the hell is your shame?

You said this:

but you ignore all the durability feats for other guys who have hit Firelord?

Maybe you can clarify what you meant, hmmmm?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

He's also been KO'ed by Captain America' date=' so your point is? [/quote']

 

Maybe Captain America vs. Rhino is the fight that needs questioning. There's precious little other evidence that Rhino's face is particularly unable to take a punch.

 

And how come you want to use durability feats for other guys Spidey has hit, but you ignore all the durability feats for other guys who have hit Firelord?

 

Because we're not asking whether Spidey can hurt Thor or Hercules (although earlier, we saw that he could hurt Thor). The durability of Thor or Hercules isn't the issue; the durability of Firelord as compared to the durability of other people Spidey has KO'd is the issue. You're trying to confuse the issue, just as you do everytime someone presents evidence that doesn't jibe with your conclusions.

 

Thor can only CON Stun Firelord once out of several tries. Hercules has tried over half a dozen times and never done it once. Spidey is supposed to have KTFO'ed Firelord. For that matter, given that Firelord never once tried to defend himself throughout the entire barrage, Spidey's supposed to have CON Stunned the guy with his first hit!

 

That's another example of you taking the panels of a comic page with a literalness that is never intended. We can't assume that Firelord never swung back. He probably did. Thor claimed to be trying to hit Spidey in the earlier scans, but the artist didn't show it because it it would slow down the pacing of the fight.

 

You seem incapable of understanding artistic decisions.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Found a scan showing Rhino's durability.

Rhino takes a punch in the face from the Hulk and doesn't go down. In fact, his visible reaction is comparable to the reaction Firelord gives when Thor hits him in the earlier Thor 306 scan. Given that Hulk and Thor reside in similar territory on the hitting power scale, this suggests that Rhino and Firelord aren't so dissimilar on the slugfest durability scale. And no one's disputing Spidey's ability to leak stun through on Rhino.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Quicksilver vs. Flash was the only part of that series that stood out to me as a decent fight, and that wasn't one where the fans got to vote. Even the fights that went the way I thought they should go got there in a stupid or boring way (eg, Silver Surfer and Green Lantern).

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Are you looking at scans, Chuckg? Can you post them?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Thor 246.

 

Top panel, Thor strikes Firelord full on with an "I am enraged!" Mjolnir pound-down. Firelord takes minimal Knockback.

It's quite evident that it's Thor's right fist that hits Firelord in that panel. Look at the white motion arc.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

He made a deal to find planets for Glactus to eat.

So did the Surfer. He changed. Firelord changed too.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

The fight itself' date=' was not imo that poorly written.[/quote']

 

In my opinion the fight was very well written. The pacing is terrific and the tension is palpable. To have the hero running for most of two issues and maintain the readers' interest is a fine accomplishment.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I managed to borrow a friend's Thor comics. It's downright deceitful to say that Thor can't do 'jack squat' to Firelord. Issue 232, Thor lands a solid punch (note that this is even without Mjolner) and Con Stuns Firelord. It explictly states that Firelord was Stunned by the punch. In issue 234, Loki also appears to stun Firelord with an energy blast.

The few scans I've found of Herc or Thor hitting Firelord (shown below) show a definite reaction on his part. If he's ever "bounced" Mjolnir, I'd like to see evidence of it.

In these scans, (one from Thor 306 and two from Avengers 258), neither Thor nor Herc appear to want to seriously injure Firelord at the time they make contact. Yet Firelord is clearly not simply ignoring their blows. In fact, he appears to be cowed by Hercules.

Interestingly, both scans have the hero referring to Firelord as a friend. Thor 306 was published four years before ASM 269 and 270, and Avengers 258 was immediately afterward. Firelord was clearly not a casual killer by this point (if he ever was), or Thor and Herc would be unlikely to consider him a friend. Restraint from mass destruction in an inhabited environment would appear to be in character for Firelord by this time.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

See the consistency problem with Firelord suddenly switching to indirect clever tactics in this one panel alone and then going right back to stupid blind bull in a rage for the vast majority of the rest of the ish, that we've already referred two. Repeatedly.

But the alternate explanation you provide (that he's trying to avoid triggering Spidey's danger sense) requires an even greater degree of tactical thinking.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I think the real problem is that this argument is taking place through the lens of games mechanics' date=' not storytellers which is where it should be taking place.[/quote']

 

Actually, I think translating it to game mechanics is healthy for this thread. It provides a common frame of reference (which is clearly lacking otherwise), and helps keep the thread relevant to these boards.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

This debate has become just as silly as the comic book battle it's become centered around; and with just as poor reason. Neither of you will convince the other. It's time to just stop.

 

 

 

Let. It. Go.

 

 

 

Please.

You know, the board software doesn't require you to read every thread.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Possibly to try and avoid directly triggering Spider-Man's danger sense' date=' which by that point he was dimly beginning to suspect that Spider-Man had.[/quote']

 

I don't have the books at work. Did he say or think that?

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

OK' date=' take the contrary. Why is Firelord aiming 4" away from his target?[/quote']

 

Why would he do that even if it was an AE? To make it easier to escape the radius?