Andrew Cermak

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Uh, I'm gonna say no.

100 tons? Spiderman? Nah.

He's pulled off that kind of feat more than once. He does it here in Amazing Spider-Man #365. That's Penn Station that fell on him, btw.

Only the Hulk has a better Push than Spidey.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Side note - so are some saying that Spiderman would necessarily lose to Thor? Personally' date=' I really doubt that, for all of Thor's power. Spiderman is pretty darn clever himself and able to avoid getting hit a long, long time.[/quote']

 

I don't think Spidey would *necessarily* lose to Thor, but I think he'd lose a lot more often than not. Thor is more cunning than Firelord by a wide margin, and has shown a more varied powerset. Firelord may have Power Cosmic, but he doesn't do much with it.

 

I imagine Thor could figure out a way to slow down Spidey enough to get a few clean shots in, and that'd be it.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

So is his threat to level the city. So he means exactly what he says when it supports the people saying he hasn't been jobbed, but when it supports those of us saying he has been jobbed he's exaggerating or doesn't mean it.

 

Nothing like a level playing field. And this is nothing like a level playing field.

Nothing like shifting your argument when your points are dismantled.

Firelord was a friend to Hercules and Thor at the time this issue was published, and you want to claim that he would be willing to mass murder innocents to get at Spidey?

He also said he wanted Thor dead in that scan I showed from Thor 306. Always follows through on his threats, does he?

I'm not sure why I'm bothering anymore. You're being so disingenous that I'm convinced you *know* it, and are now simply trolling. Pretending that a boastful threat and an exclamation of surprise must be treated as having equal sincerity is just stupid. It's like saying "I should kill you for that!" and "Ow, my foot!" must be treated as equivalent statements.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

He knew what he was doing. Or he didn't. No third alternative.

And that's the very definition of a false dichotomy. Pretending alternatives don't exist.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

So you are saying that he was aware of his Spider sense, and continues intentionally beating on an opponent he knows is KO'ed.

 

Reading comprehension isn't a strength of yours, is it? No wonder there's so much disagreement here.

I didn't answer your loaded question, I denied the false dichotomy you constructed. He can *both* react to his Spider-Sense *and* not consciously realize when Firelord was down.

Which is exactly what the page demonstrates happening.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Suprised.

 

After all, if you've shot at someone twenty or thirty times, the very last thing you'd expect them to do is fight back.

The quote "You dare!?" from Firelord shows that he couldn't quite credit what he was seeing.

It's all on the page.

Especally if your skill set before becomng a Herald of Galactus included being in command of a starship. I'm sure at the Xandaran Academy tactics was an elective course.

 

OK, big fat hairy deal was made out of the variability of a Herald's defenses being possibly due to a VPP like structure. He didn't have those points in offense, he didn't have them in defese, he sure as heck didn't have them in enhanced senses or smarts. What does he have his points shifted to?

This isn't an argument I've been pursuing, but if I were, I'd theorize that Firelord largely shut off his Power Cosmic when he was playing possum, to make it more convincing.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

I can see Peter being in an altered state, having histerical blindness to his Spider sense, and continuing to beat on an unconcious opponent not realizing he's no longer a threat.

 

I can't see him pounding on an opponent he realizes is unconcious and now harmless, no matter how PO'ed he is. This isn't Ben, Logan or even Thor, notorious for their bad tempers. This is Mr. "With Great Power there must alway come - - Great Responsibility!"

 

Let's go with votes from the floor. Didn't realize fight was over, or intentionally continued to beat an unconcious opponent?

 

Anyone?

 

Bueller?

Why do you keep tying "berserk" to "ignoring his Spider-Sense?" You haven't demonstrated that the two go hand in hand.

You ever react to something without thinking? Spidey does that with his Spider-Sense. It's even gotten him into trouble before. If it tingles, he usually reacts to it instinctively.

So the fact that it stopped sending him signals and he kept hitting Firelord doesn't show he was blind to his Spider-Sense. It shows he was still acting instinctively, and his angry, frustrated instincts were telling him to hit the powerhouse who had been trying to kill him.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Wasn't she called something like Golden Granny?

Golden Oldie.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

So he was totally in touch with his Spider sense and knew that Firelord was no longer a threat while he was going Rodney King on him? That despite having a CvK in every other apperance he knew he was beating an unconcious man' date=' and probably would have continued without Cap's intervention?[/quote']

 

The comic makes it pretty clear that Spidey was ticked. Do I have a hard time believing that Spidey would lay in more shots than necessary on a superhumanly tough opponent who had hounded him across the city for the better part of two issues? No. Spidey's gone berserk against bad guys before.

 

If Spidey had beaten someone to death, I'd call that bad writing. Having him snap and punch someone a few more times than is necessary? After what Spidey went through, that shows he's human, and I'd call that good writing.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Irrelivant.

Irrelevant? Sounds like you're being intentionally evasive. You know exactly how this is relevant, you're just choosing not to answer because you'll be forced to concede an argument against your side's position.

Ten, maybe more, point is Spidy is no longer dodging and, despite the caption, has hysterical blindness to his Spider Sense (or else would have realized when Firelord is Knocked out).

Right, Spidey isn't using his Spider-Sense even though the caption specifically says he is.

You guys are dodging more than Spidey was, but not nearly as gracefully.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Sigh. Andrew Cermak already showed a scan where the Hulk' date=' who clearly is of Thor class Str, punching Rhino in the face and doing not very much.[/quote']

 

That I did.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

You can't be this dense, which leads to only one conclusion and it isn't flattering to you.

 

I think you've fallen into your own trap. Perhaps, now would be the time to stop either by simply stopping, admitting defeat, or making a few accusations against the character of those who disagree with you while twisting their arguments and leaving in a huff. Your choice. After all, you are only delaying the inevitable.

Yeah, I'm thinking that Chuckg's torpedoed his own argument well enough that I can step AFK and get some stuff done.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Oh where you quoted Andrew as:

 

The whole *point* of the pro-Spidey vs Firelord position is that Spidey can hit hard enough to hurt Firelord, so he just needs to hit him a lot to eventually bring him down. That's what we've been saying this entire thread.

 

But completely left out this part:

 

To demonstrate it, we've shown him hurting Thor 2 and Rhino and Titania. We've shown that Firelord hasn't proven any better at taking a punch than any of these characters. Spidey can hurt Firelord if he hits him hard enough.

 

Despite your protestations, that panel shows Spidey hitting Firelord a *lot*. Eventually, Firelord goes down.

 

All Spidey needed was the confidence to make a stand...or be left with nowhere left to run.

 

It's fairly simple.

What he said. Um, I mean, what I said.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Notice how Chuckg leaves out most of Andrew Cermak's post? The parts where he explicitly cites detailed evidence for his positions?

 

Talk about a martial dodge.

That's his MO. He tries to distract people from it by accusing them of dishonesty at the drop of a hat, but it's just a mask for his own omissions.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

But you can't *SHOW* Spidey hitting Firelord a lot. It's not on the page. Your argument for 'proving' that "a lot" happened was 'the artist didn't have room to draw it'. Except that proves nothing but what you want to personally believe.

 

So the primary evidence for your line of reasoning -- doesn't actually exist. Except in your own imaginations.

Will you listen to yourself? Comics dwell in the imagination. We see blobs of colored ink and our imagination turns them into pictures. We see a sequence of standstill pictures and our imagination turns them into moving stories.

The only one pretending imagination has nothing to do with reading a comic book is you, and with that mistaken impression it's no wonder you fail to understand that panel and what it represents.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Those were separate statements. Who knows how much time passed between each panel. It's not like Spidey said half a statement on one panel' date=' and the second half on another panel.[/quote']

 

Good point.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

And so, after days of effort, we circle around right back to the very beginning of the argument -- plausibility doesn't matter, consistency doesn't matter, if Spidey won, then it has to be a good story.

 

 

Spidey's performance, not consistent with either the vast majority of his own performances re: punching(*), or pretty much the entire totality of Firelord's performances re: taking punches. Your only argument to the contrary relies upon imagining things into existence that never actually appeared anywhere in the comic.

 

Which means your argument has nothing to back it up.

The whole *point* of the pro-Spidey vs Firelord position is that Spidey can hit hard enough to hurt Firelord, so he just needs to hit him a lot to eventually bring him down. That's what we've been saying this entire thread.

To demonstrate it, we've shown him hurting Thor 2 and Rhino and Titania. We've shown that Firelord hasn't proven any better at taking a punch than any of these characters. Spidey can hurt Firelord if he hits him hard enough.

Despite your protestations, that panel shows Spidey hitting Firelord a *lot*. Eventually, Firelord goes down.

All Spidey needed was the confidence to make a stand...or be left with nowhere left to run.

It's fairly simple.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Funny how Chuck earlier in this thread was trying to do detailed calculations of how much time passed between panels' date=' and now he's trying to literally say that no time can pass between panels of a comic. [/quote']

 

 

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

On the contrary, it's *very* important -- to the argument you've been trying to make. You bet your position on Spidey's alleged 'quantity', now you've got to back that alleged 'quantity' up.

The quantity is "enough." That's what the panel represents. Spidey hits Firelord and hits him again and keeps hitting him until the Avengers pull him off. We don't need a counter for that.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Because Firelord is mad? He wants to wring Spidey's neck? The last thing he wants is to move away from Spidey because he's working off of emotions not reason?

Mad, disbelieving, refusing to allow this gnat to defeat him until it's already happened.

A host of reasons are possible.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

OK, so first, the artist is not drawing Spidey hitting Firelord because it would ruin the pacing, and now he's supposed to not be drawing Firelord hitting back because it would ruin the pacing.

 

Calling this line of reasoning ludicrous would be dignifying it too much. Now you're arguing that the artist hasn't bothered to draw the majority of actions taken by *both* sides in the fight, to the point of giving an entirely different impression of events than what "actually" happened! At this rate, why doesn't the guy just give us 22 pages of blank space while the narrator simply *tells* us what's going on?

 

What's on the page is a short, brutal takedown vs. an opponent whose too dazed to resist. What you're claiming happened is a long drawn-out affair, with dozens of blows struck on both sides.

 

Tell me, how does it supposedly 'improve' the pacing to draw a completely different fight than what supposedly happened?

 

I suppose you might find some kind of refuge in claiming that instead of hideously incompetent *writing*, there was hideously incompetent *drawing*. Me, I can't see the difference -- or the plausibility in trying such in the first place.

You're really falling apart on this point.

Those pages are meant to show Spidey's last stand. He's had enough, he's frustrated and angry, and now it's time to stop running and go down fighting. That's what the artist draws, because that's what's important.

How many times Spidey punched Firelord isn't important. How many times Firelord swiped at Spidey isn't important. We don't need to know those things, they don't help the scene become more effective. The panels show us how Spidey won, we don't need a diagram.

Comic books are art, and you continue to forget that.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Umm' date=' either Firelord was trying to attack Spidey off-panel OR Spidey was moving in such a bewildering fashion that Firelord couldn't react to his movements to attack him.[/quote']

 

Yep.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Right' date=' because Spider-Man has never been known to jump around or otherwise move acrobatically except when he is actively in the process of being attacked. [/quote']

 

 

In the very scan you post, Spidey eventually stops jumping around and just starts whaling on Firelord, who is probably out at that point.

 

Spidey doesn't dodge things that aren't there.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Of course I can. Unless Spidey is supposed to be Quicksilver' date=' he doesn't get the 'hundreds of punches in a blur' that speedsters get. Any punches he throws have to be drawn. (add) Or else, Thor really hit Firelord like a thousand times, the artist just didn't bother to show it to us. /sarcasm[/quote']

 

Show us a panel of Thor blitzing Firelord, with lots of shadowy Thors or a Thor colored whirlwind flying around Firelord, and this argument might make sense.

 

Is *anyone* convinced by Chuckg's statement that Spidey only hit Firelord 10 times? McCoy, if you're out there, do you seriously buy that?

 

Oh, BTW, you're *still* ignoring the question about why Firelord is just sitting there without fighting back, or flying away, or making any other kind of visibile reaction.

 

Actually, I did explain that, but you're ignoring it.

 

Firelord was fighting back. That's why Spidey was bouncing around like a maniac as he hit Firelord. The artist didn't draw Firelord's swings because it would ruing the pacing.

 

Reference Spidey blitzing Thor 2 earlier for a comparable scene, where Thor explictly states he's fighting back but it isn't drawn.

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

Actually, you know what? You won't even need to post those scans yourself. Somebody already did on a thread in another message board. I'll just grab copies of those and attach 'em.

 

I count ten punches. How many do you count?

The middle panel represents an indeterminate number of punches. It's a blitz. You can count the *drawn* punches, but you cannot count how many punches that blitz actually represents. That panel tells us what Spidey was doing: jumping around, dodging and punching Firelord over and over again. It is not meant to tell us how many times Spidey hit Firelord.

(But it does suggest that Firelord might be fighting back, or Spidey wouldn't be jumping around like that)

You are being excessively literal.