Drohem

Good song.

I have no idea how it relates to the discussion though.

Well, let me try to add some clarification to the situation.

It's clear from the rules that skill bonuses/penalties are applied to the Skill Roll rather than the actual dice roll.  

My group plays online via Roll20 and the use of Macros.  These macros are written and used when a roll is needed.  

The whole reason for this discussion because of the nature of online play and macros.  

Now, this isn't really an issue with combat rolls because of the formula for combat rolls and how modifiers can be applied in the macros.  With combat macros, it's non-issue because the net modifier is applied to the base 11 and the actual 3d6 dice roll remains untouched.

However, due to the nature of writing macros for Roll20 it is easier to apply the net modifier to the actual 3d6 dice roll rather then having to manually adjust the Skill Roll needed for every single attempted skill roll.

I just had some doubts if there was a mathematical equivalency between applying the net modifier to the Skill Roll or applying the net modifier to the actual 3d6 dice roll.  I suspected that the percentages of success or failure between the two approaches might be different and not match up.  However, from Lucius' responses above it appears that there is a mathematical equivalency between the two approaches and I don't have to re-write the macros for our games.

Let me see if I can explain this in any meaningful way, LOL....

Example 1:

• Character has PER 12-
• Skill Penalty to roll is -2
• Before dice are rolled, his roll for success is at 10-
• 3d6 are rolled and result is a 7
• The degree of success is 3

Example 2:

• Character has PER 12-
• Skill Penalty to roll is -2, but it is applied to dice roll
• 3d6+2 are rolled, and the result is 9 [7 (raw dice roll) + 2 (penalty)]
• The degree of success 3

OK, you're right, it does seem that there is no mathematical difference between the two approaches.  Thanks for the help!

LOL!  Well, it's not the first time, nor will it be the last time, my gut has been wrong.

However, does this account for degrees of success?

I mean let's say in both examples that the raw dice roll is a 7.

In the first example the degree of success would be 3, and in the second example the degree of success would only be 1.

I need help from a math wizard to explain to my group the difference between how Skill Bonuses/Penalties are being applied by currently in our game play.

Certain members of my group believe that there is no relative difference between applying a Skill Bonus/Penalty to the Skill Roll Needed or applying it to the actual Dice Roll.

Let me explain with an example:

Let's assume that my character has a normal Perception roll of 12- and he needs to make a roll with a -2 penalty.

My group believes that making the Perception roll of 10- is mathematically equivalent as...

Rolling 3d6+2 against a PER 12-.

My gut tells me that they are not mathematically equivalent, but I don't know how to explain it properly.  Or, I could be totally off base and they are mathematically equivalent, LOL!  

Either way, I would appreciate help from someone to parse it down for us math laymen.

Hi Steve,

How does Reduced Penetration work with odd dice? I have a Wolf-Folk character (Fantasy HERO, p. 64) with the Claws option and a 15 STR so he does 1-1/2d6 damage with STR added. Also, we use the Hit Location rules to determine STUN damage. Would the dice be broken up into 1d6 and 1d3 for the attack? Also, how would the STUN damage be determined with using the optional Hit Location rules?

Cheers,

Drohem

Re: Mass Combat System and Archery Units

The GM and others in my group are more reactionary and are looking for a 'solution' to this 'problem' immediately even though we only played the Mass Combat system once. I, on the other hand, would like to give it some more time before changing things around. Upon reflecting on this issue, I came to the conclusion that the system is, somewhat, representative of how this units operated. I am of a mind that the system is fine and that's just the way it works in large combats. I was hoping that someone had some concrete insight regarding the numbers for OCV/DCV for the units presented in the Mass Combat system. My first blush was that maybe the DCV listed for units is too high.

Setting aside all the historical battle discussion for a moment, it seems that my gut reaction is the general consensus here: archery units just weren't terribly effective in large scale combats.

Does anyone see it terribly damaging if archery unit fire was switched to target a square instead of the unit's DCV?

My group used the Mass Combat system presented in 6e Fantasy HERO book for the first time on our last game night. We were dissatisfied with how missile fire played out: not one volley hit an opposing unit due to range penalties (even with the Brace and Set maneuvers utilized).

We are considering changing missile fire so that it's an area of effect, and, therefore, only needs to hit the hex (DCV 3) of the opposing unit instead of hitting the unit's DCV rating.

• Has anyone else used the Mass Combat system for the 6e HERO System?
  
• If so, what are you thoughts on it?
  
• Did you run into the same issue?
  
• If it was an issue, how did you resolve it in your games?
  

Re: From 4E D&D to 6E Heroes: The Intimidation Factor

In all honesty, if you've made the time commitment and invested in mastering 4e D&D, then mastering HERO will be roughly the same. As far as instant monsters, others have already suggested the Bestiary. Each monster also has some packaged options that you can apply quickly to make them different and not so cookie-cutter, and, of course, once you get the hang of the HERO System then you'll be able to make a few tweaks in a couple of minutes.

Re: Dungeons, suitable for crawling or delving?

Can't go wrong with the dungeon staple of Giant Rats!

Re: Unarmed Damage Cap?

I guess he also lacks any weapon familarity with the Makeshift Weapons, making it a general bad choice not only a "it does less damage" choice.

 

Anotehr way to simulate the inferriority of martial arts, is the Optional OCV penalties from 6E2 202, wich gives the unarmed guy OCV penalties based on the enemies weapon lenght. Of course the Martial artist can reverse the situation, using the enemies reach agaisnt him but he would still be more likely to suffer it agaisnt armed opponents.

Well, I am ruling that using the manacles is close enough to either Clubs or Fist Loads that I am not imposing the -3 unfamiliarity penalty. (Trying to cut them a small break since they're in dire straights, as it were.)

However, most of there current opponents do have Long weapons, so reminding about this rule was great. Thanks!

Re: Unarmed Damage Cap?

Unarmed Damage Cap: +2PD Resistant Defence (3 active points) Only to Protect the head (-2) 1 Real point.

Well, not a damage cap strictly, but I like it! I take it that it is intended to simulate the skull, correct?

Re: Unarmed Damage Cap?

Thanks for the responses!

There are several things I left out originally since they seemed moot to my question, but I realize now that they might helpful to other readers:

1. I am using the optional rule where damage over double the base DC of the weapon goes to the weapon; and could break it.

2. The PC in question doesn't have access to other weapons at the moment.

3. The character is no longer bound by the manacles, but is using them as a makeshift weapon (i.e, clubbing people with them).

4. It's a Heroic, gritty, fantasy game.

OK, so do any GMs out there cap Unarmed damage dice, or is it a non-issue for you?

OK, so weapon damage is usually capped at double the base DC of the weapon. Is there a cap for unarmed STR damage with a punch or kick? If this is discussed somewhere in the rules (6E), please direct me to the appropriate page.

For example, a PC in my current game is a recently freed slave and the only weapon he has are manacles. I have decided that this does 2d6 Normal damage; therefore, he is capped at 4d6 damage with the makeshift weapon. However, the PC does more than 4d6 damage with just his normal punch and Martial Strike so he's discarded the weapon for just punching people. Is there a cap as to how many dice of damage an Unarmed attack can do?

Re: Help with the Zombie template

For me it is in 6E1 293.

Oops, sorry, I didn't mean that the power Takes no STUN wasn't in the 6E1 book, but, rather, that the part about armor being cut in a 1/3 isn't in the 6E1 book and is only in the APG2 book.

Re: Help with the Zombie template

One interesting fact regarind "Takes no STUN" and Armor Protection:

"If an Automaton with the Takes No STUN Power obtains defensive equipment (such as a suit of armor), he must divide the PD/ED that equipment provides by 3, the same way he does for a defensive ability he purchases with Character Points." APG II 36. So your Zomby would only get a +2 PD from the +6 PD Armor.

The Tirppling rule is general. It's basically a part of the cost for "not Stun". Also when looking if an enemy fits into a game, you should tripple their PD/ED before comparing it to the campaign guidelines. So "Takes no STUN" + 12 rPD equals 36 PD (12 Resistant) for purpose of determining the relative strenghts/combat maxima.

 

Brain shot rule would require a very good OCV roll or setup (tripping/entangle + followup). You say your adventures use weapons they are unfamiliar with, so that is at least a -1 to-3 OCV for all of them. And every -1 is roughly -10% chance to hit in Hero.

Anotehr thing is that those automatosn can't be beaten with normal damage weapons. You need Strong Killing Attack Weapons, preferebly ones that don't go against their strongest defense.

Well, that is interesting indeed! Thank you for pointing this out to me.

I didn't see that when I read the Takes no STUN power in the 6E1 book- and now I know why; it isn't there! LOL! Luckily, I have the APG2 as well. Now, this makes the zombie a viable adversary for this group, I think, since it will only have the following defenses:

6 PD vs. non-slashing and non-piercing attacks

8 PD vs. slashing attacks

10 PD vs. piercing attacks

4 ED vs. all attacks

It will, by no means, be easy for the group, but I think that with this ruling for automatons with armor will put it in the realm of possibility for this group. They will have Killing Damage weapons, and not all the characters in the group will be using an unfamiliar weapon; just some of them (i.e., NPC Normals).

I don't honestly expect anyone to target the brain in particular, but will use that rule in case anyone gets a lucky random Hit Location roll. Also, I plan to drop the zombies' STR down to 10 the first time it takes any BODY damage as per the Takes no STUN rules in 6E1.

So, with the above considered, am I still sending my party of PCs/NPCs into a meat-grinder?

Re: Help with the Zombie template

OK, and now I would like to ask some advice from the HERO erudites here.

I am planning to throw a zombie king and queen at my group of players as they explore their burial crypt. There are three PCs in the group that are 150/50 heroes, and there are four NPCs that are Skilled Normals. The group is lightly armed and armored with a majority of the group using weapons that are unfamiliar. I was planning that the dead king was buried in a suit of magical scale mail (Banded Mail) and with a magical mace, while the queen is buried in just clothing will be using her zombie punches for attacks. Now, the zombie template looks pretty tough as is with its resistant PD and 20 STR, and without optional claw and bite attacks. I don't think that I will make the scale mail and mace powerful magic items by adding PD, OCV, or DC. I think that I will just make the magic armor and weapon tougher by adding BODY and Defense, and perhaps make them weigh less, to simulate their magical qualities.

However, even with making the magic armor's and weapon's qualities non-combat orientated (i.e., no direct bonus), do you think that the party can handle the zombie king and queen? Or will these two zombies be too tough to handle for the party? The zombie king will be pretty darn tough in scale armor with its naturally resistant PD; especially against piercing attacks (14 PD).

Also, the party will have no real escape from the crypt until they destroy the zombie king and queen so they cannot kite or run away if things get tough. I am thinking of implementing the brain-shot optional rule where even 1 BODY damage to the brain (Hit Location-3) instantly destroys the zombie, but will this even be enough to give the party some chance against them?

Re: Your "2012" Pet Gaming Projects

Posting Hero Designer output to the forums is pretty easy... just use an export template that is setup for forum posting... then copy and paste the results into a post...

 

I just did a new forum posting template, you can read about it and see the output here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/88429-Forum-Posting-Template-Using-Tables

I tried this template and it is excellent! Thank you for sharing this with the community.

Unfortunately, the forum where my circle of friends and I post on is powered by phpBB and this template doesn't work there.

Re: Help with the Zombie template

That looks correct.

Cool, and thanks!

Re: Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion to HERO 6E.

Excellent! Would you be willing to Attach it to a post on this thread (assuming it's small enough)? That would probably be much more convenient for Strongbow (and others) to refer to than reading it online.

Sure.

Re: Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion to HERO 6E.

Well, that sucks rocks. I was able to download it once I logged into Goggle.

Re: Help with the Zombie template

OK, so the triple cost thing explains the derived point costs for its Powers as well; it just hit me, LOL!

So, discounting normal PD/ED since it's moot, then would the Resistant PD just cover its extra PD? In other words, its Resistant PD/ED looks like this:

4 PD vs. non-slashing and non-piercing attacks

6 PD vs. slashing attacks

8 PD vs. piercing attacks

2 ED vs. all attacks

Re: Help with the Zombie template

I don't have the template and thus can't answer your main question, but considering the name of the template one note anyway:

If it has any version of "Takes No Stun" Power (45 or 60 Points), then it starts with a ED/PD of 1 and has to pay three times as much for ED, PD and other defensive powers. It would also get no benefit (or at least no relevant) from Non-Resistant defenses (all they do is stop normal Damage Body, and they are irrelevantly low anyway).

Well, thank you. That solves part of the mystery for me.

That helps me understand why the point cost for its base PD and base ED seemed off to me and I couldn't grok how the costs were derived. In the book it is listed as:

[9] - 4 PD

[3] - 2 ED

OK, so the relevant powers for defense are:

[4] - Undead Body: +2 PD: Only Protects Against Slashing Or Piercing Attacks (-½)

[3] - Undead Body: +2 PD: Only Protects Against Piercing Attacks (-1)

[15] - Undead Body: Resistant (+½) for 8 PD/2 ED

Re: Skyrealms of Jorune Conversion to HERO 6E.

There was a detailed Jorune-to-4E HERO conversion PDF freely available on the now-defunct jorune.org website. I was able to locate it on the Internet' date=' but for reasons which defy my limited technical skills I can't download it. However, I can make it available to you for viewing online -- it may be of use to you:

 

https://docs.google.com/open?id=1IYjWfsgrq7eBeutBrCEvr9F4FeGlICUTm6042DuJ4ZZH0fT50TO33jaP5J8e

You have to sign into Goggle in order to download it. Once you sign in, the download button is in the upper right hand corner of the screen. Thank you for sharing this with us.

I'm looking at the Zombie template from The HERO System Bestiary (6E; p. 296) and would like some help clarifying its total PD/ED and its Powers. If I am understanding it correctly, then it should have the following defenses against all attacks:

12 PD (8 rPD)

4 ED (2 rED)

If the attack is a slashing attack, then its defenses would look like this:

14 PD (8 rPD)

4 ED (2 rED)

If the attack is a piercing attack, then its defenses would look like this:

16 PD (8 rPD)

4 ED (2 rED)

Did I get this down correctly?

Thank you for your time and energy in assisting me grok this correctly.