Arcangle

I want to run a (heroic) DC game where the characters are monster hunters. They can be normals (100 CP + 50 in Comps) or have a couple of powers.

Question 1: What limit should I put on the Active Points of powers? I don't want 12d6 energy blasts, for example.

Question 2: Would this work better at 150 CP + 50 in Comps?

It contains the "Superhero Gallery" which is by itself perhaps one of the most useful supplementary documents for Champions I've ever used. The superhero Gallery is a set of plug-and-play templates for 400-point Superheroes. Besides that, Champions is also a great genre book, discussing any number of useful genre elements.

The gallery sounds like a lot of fun, but 400-point characters are too high for me.

What's in Dark Champions: TAS?

This one:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/store/product/683-champions-the-super-roleplaying-game-bookpdf/

I'm hoping it has lots of sample characters, like the villains books. Is it worth getting, in that regard? Worth getting for other reasons?

Lets look at this from another angle.

 

You've raised Body to 20 and made death at -20.  I jump off a building 325' (100m or about 30 stories) tall building.  It takes me 4 seconds to hit the ground for 20d6 normal.  On average, I am unconscious (-48 Stun) with probably a few broken bones but I am not in danger of dying as I will have 2 Body left.  In the old system, I'd have two turns before I bleed to death.

True. I gave up on my original proposal a few posts back. Too many problems (and you've found another). 

A (perhaps simpler) alternative to your proposed house-rule would be not to use Killing Attacks at all, just convert every Weapon (or other Game Element using Killing Attacks) into an equal number of DCs of Normal Damage (3 DCs = 1d6K or 3d6N). This does run into the issue of making Resistant Defenses largely irrelevant/overpriced, for which case I devised the "Lethal" Advantage:

 

Lethal

Applies To: Blast and Hand-To-Hand Attack

Value: +1/4

The BODY Damage of this Attack Power is only reduced by Resistant Defenses (STUN Damage is reduced by Defenses normally). This Modifier is counts as a modifier which affects how the target takes damage for the purpose of Added Damage.

Note: This is not considered a form of the AVAD Advantage, it is more like Armor Piercing or Penetrating. Therefore it does not have to be combined with Does BODY (+1)

I must be getting dumber as I get older (how do you stat that up in Hero)?

Basically, you're making KA's and RKA's dormant rules. Which makes buying Resistant Defenses pointless; you'd just buy normal PD and ED, since it's cheaper. But your Lethal advantage turns a Blast/HTH Attack into a "killing attack" by ignoring non-resistant defenses

Perfect.

[This was directed at Christopher Taylor, and I don't propose to speak for him...]

 

You use the exact same damage calculation as with Normal Damage; the only thing that changes is how defenses are applied.

 

Taking your Desert Eagle example, which does 6 Damage Classes: per current RAW it does 2d6K, the total on the dice is the BODY Damage, multiplied by 1/2d6* (or a flat STUNx modifier) to determine the STUN, BODY Damage ignores nonresistant Defenses.

 

Alternately: those 6 Damage Classes become 6d6 (that part is the same as what you propose), the total on the dice is the STUN Damage, BODY is calculated as per Normal Damage BODY; the only thing different from a Normal Attack is that BODY Damage still ignores nonresistant Defenses.

 

What's different from your proposal (as I understand it) is that this method doesn't radically change the amount of damage done: in the RAW example, an average roll does 7 BODY and 14 STUN. In the Alternate method, an average roll does 6 BODY and 18 STUN. So there's no need to completely re-jigger Characteristics to compensate.

 

* Assuming you're using 6ed; it was 1d6-1 in previous editions.

I think I get it. It does what I set out to do, but better.

If it was, that isn't how I interpreted it. The fact that you suggested modifying the BODY Characteristic, and how BODY is recovered, and your reasons for doing so indicated otherwise.

 

Perhaps you misunderstood me? I was talking about simply using Blasts instead of RKAs and HAs instead of HKAs. Doing so requires no changes to the core mechanics of combat or character generation; it would just mean that a 6 DC Desert Eagle or Greatsword causes 6d6 Normal Damage (Average: 6 BODY, 21 STUN) instead of 2d6 Killing Damage (Average: 7 BODY*, 14 STUN). *Which is only reduced by Resistant Defenses.

I misunderstood (but I think I get it now). Let me try an example:

Dark Archer has 30 STUN, 10 BODY, 5 PD, and 6rPD. The Avenger shoots him with a Desert Eagle (was 2d6, now 6d6) for 21 STUN and 6 BODY. This is reduced to 10 STUN (from the PD + armor) and 0 BODY (from the armor).

If I understand it correctly, I like it. No half dice, no stun multiplier-- it's achieves the goals I want, but in a more elegant fashion. Less modifications to the system.

Attacks which were previously Killing Attacks do not suddenly cause more BODY damage (they actually cause less BODY Damage)

Correct, 7 vs. 6.

Your example indicated that your Desert Eagle's 6d6 of Normal Damage was still being counted as Killing Damage (instead of as Normal Damage), resulting in it causing much more BODY damage than it should have.

Correct. My proposal is too lethal.

The only side effect my suggestion was is that nobody will buy Resistant Protection or Resistant Damage Reduction, and game elements that normally include Resistant Defenses by default (such as Entangle, Barrier, Bases, and Vehicles) are effectively 50% more expensive than the "need" to be (for the defense portion of those game elements).

I don't get this part. Can you explain?

I find that statement very confusing. Your original post indicates you are willing to completely change the core mechanics of Killing Attacks, the Cost and base values BODY, and the rules for recovering BODY... yet including one custom modifier, which basically functions just like Armor Piercing or Penetrating does, is too much of a change?

I meant that [my proposed changes + your Lethal variant] would change the game too much. I didn't mean that [your Lethal variant] changes the game too much. 

A (perhaps simpler) alternative to your proposed house-rule would be not to use Killing Attacks at all, just convert every Weapon (or other Game Element using Killing Attacks) into an equal number of DCs of Normal Damage (3 DCs = 1d6K or 3d6N).

This is what I was proposing in my first post, right?

This does run into the issue of making Resistant Defenses largely irrelevant/overpriced...

Correct. It took me a while to see it.

for which case I devised the "Lethal" Advantage:

I think I see where you're going here. But at this point, it's changing the rules too much for me.

We've actually discussed this idea here several times.  The truth is, if you just use normal dice for killing and normal damage (Count the body the same way) but treat defenses the way they are now, its pretty similar in terms of results.

Not sure what you mean, can you give an example? It sounds like what I was proprosing in my first post.

They can't have enough defenses to block most of the BOD without also blocking most of the STUN.

I think I see what you mean.

• Original rules: Dark Archer has 10 BODY and armor that does 6 rPD. He gets shot by a Desert Eagle (2d6) for 7 BODY, which the armor reduces to 1 BODY.
• My proposal: Dark Archer has 30 BODY and armor that does 6 rPD. He gets shot by a Desert Eagle (6d6) for 21 BODY, which the armor reduces to 15 BODY.

That makes a far more lethal game. Under the original rules, Dark Archer has lost 1/10 of his BODY, but under my proposal he's lost 50% of it. To preserve the balance, I could raise rPD x 3 (18 rPD). This reduces the attack to 3 BODY, which preserves the ratio. But as you point out, it blocks too much STUN (23 instead of 11).

Let me think about it some more.

I’ve created a rules variant that uses the Normal Damage dice scale for Killing Damage, which eliminates half-dice and rolling for a STUN multiplier. The goal is to speed up combat and make the game simpler. I’ve been playing Hero for some time, but I’m not an expert-- so let me know if I missed anything.

Rules Modifications

1. Use the Damage Classes Table to convert Killing Damage dice to Normal Damage dice. Example: Under the original rules, a Desert Eagle does 2d6 BODY, but now it does 6d6.

1 pip = 1d6
1/2D = 2d6
1d6 = 3d6
1d6+1 = 4d6
1.5 d6 = 5d6
2d6 = 6d6
2d6+1 = 7d6
2.5 d6 = 8d6
3d6 = 9d6
etc.

2. Since KA’s now do more damage, the BODY characteristic must increase. Use the same scale as STUN:
 

• Base Value: 20
• Cost: 1 CP per +2 BODY
• Characteristic maximum: 50

3. In combat, subtract Killing Damage from both STUN and BODY. Example: The Avenger shoots the Dark Archer for 18 BODY. The Dark Archer’s armor provides 6 rPD, which reduces the damage to 12. Adding his 5 PD to the armor reduces the STUN damage to 7 STUN.  

4. The Death threshold remains the same (negative BODY).

5. BODY heals at REC x 3 per month, rather than REC per month.

6. RKA’s are now purchased as Blast (does BODY). HKA’s are now purchased as a Hand-to-Hand Attack (does BODY).  There’s no additional cost for the “does BODY” modifier, but you must declare it when you buy the power.  

7. Converting published NPC’s is simple. First, multiply BODY x3. Next, use the Damage Scale Table to convert any Killing Attacks to the Normal Damage scale.

Next step is I want to limit CSL’s to the 3-point option. I plan to use the “Optional Equal Damage Hand-to-Hand Weapons Table” on page 37 of the 6E Equipment Guide, so I'll start with the category headers:

• Axes
• Clubs
• Hammers and Maces
• Polearms
• Swords
• Unusual

The last group is problematic: quarterstaff, lance, and morningstar-- it seems like this is the "Other" category. For consistency and simplicity’s sake, I’ll make each of these weapons a separate 3-point CSL. Might make sense from a realism POV, since all three are a bit more complex to use.

Thoughts?

Thanks to everyone for the responses. And thanks for the links, Doc-- interesting stuff. But in the end, I think I'll just ignore SPD, as well as END, and phase 12 REC. If players want a REC, they'll have to take a 1-phase action. I would not use these mods for a Champions game, but for this experiment (a gritty, humans-only FH game) I think it will work well.

Thanks everyone!

This has probably been done before, but I can’t seem to find a “search” feature. Do you have any experience with ditching the Speed Chart? Just to put things in context, this idea is for Heroic games, not Superheroic. I want something like D20 or Gurps, where each character gets one action per round.

Issue 1 is SPD, which becomes meaningless. You could simply ignore it, and have players act in order of DEX + lightning reflexes. Or, reduce the cost to 1 CP for 1 rank and use a D20-ish initiative (3d6 + Speed + LR, roll once before combat begins.)

Issue 2 is Phase 12 recovery. Not sure what to do here (other than just ignore it) or say everyone gets a recovery after “round” 12.

Issue 3 is Flash, which relies on segments. Could you simply say that it works that many “rounds” or would that make Flash too powerful?

Anything else I’m missing?

I only have 6E Basic, and I need some clarification on how CSL's apply to melee weapons. Let me know if these examples are correct:

• 2-pt CSL: Broadsword (clear enough, it’s in the book)
• 3-pt CSL: Swords? (The example in the sidebar is Pistols, so I’m guessing this makes sense.)
• 5-pt CSL: All melee weapons?
• 8-pt CSL: All HTH attacks (clear enough, it’s in the book)
• 10-pt CSL: All attacks (clear enough, it’s in the book)

So it’s the 3-pt and 5-pt level that I need clarification on.

There's something about rolling three 6's that makes me think AWESOME, and rolling three 1's that makes me cringe. My first game of Champions was in the mid-80's, and I still can't get change that feeling.

Hello,

Does anyone know the names of the fonts used in the 5th Edition books? Or, good equivalents.

Thanks!

I'm new to Fantasy Hero. Are there any differences between the 5th edition Grimoire and the 6th edition Grimoire? (Not the differences between 5th and 6th editions of the Hero System, I alreay know those.) Basically, If I can find a copy of the 5th edition Grimoire for a good price, should I buy it or spring for the 6th edition pdf?