Pteryx

Is it normal to encounter relentless MySQL errors from that site?  I was hoping to browse it for more ideas, but have been finding it unusable, and it hasn't cleared up in hours.

Every character recovers their REC's worth of BODY each month by default, with no intervention necessary to make it happen.  However, for some character types, notably robots, this may not necessarily make sense.  I'm not sure what level of Physical Complication a lack of natural BODY healing should be, though (or, alternately, what level of Limitation on one's REC that would be, if the GM doesn't think it should count towards one's Complication total).  Any suggestions?  -- Pteryx

I've been pondering using an AoE TK for a power myself. In my own case, the idea is a field in which a character can simply hold items (not people) in place, either in terms of absolute position or position relative to an object a character is physically manipulating. Thus, if the character slid a shelf out of place with his ordinary STR, s/he could either have the items on the shelf hang where they were or follow the shelf as though "stuck" to it thanks to this field, yet couldn't just will the items to fly around. -- Pteryx

"Mental Transforms cost more than MC, plus I don't really need an effect that lasts beyond people's departure from the item's vicinity."

I think you misunderstand how to use Mental Transform in this case. The one advantage of Transform is that it keeps stacking over the turns by default. So even 1d6 would be enough to eventually affect everyone. That is transform strenght and also it's most unbalancing factor.

 

The goal is to prevent character from interacting with the object. As characters get close to it they enter the Transforms Radius and the Transform effect keeps adding up. It is possible for Characters to enter the zone fast enough and get the item before they are fully affected. But eventually they will get the Complciation and have to let go of the warded item. Once a character spend enough time close to the item he has the full effect on him and will not be freely able to interact with the item - no mater how far he moves away from it. To make the transition smother you could add "Partial Transform".

Healing condition is for the Spell to end on you (wich could be defiend as you overcomming the Complication) or end for everyone (Dispelled, intended recipient picks it up).

 

AoE and the "Skip selected person" alone will propably clock in at +1 worth of Advantage. You need to add stuff like UOO/Sticky, 0 END and Persistent to that. And since MC needs to get all it's effect in one roll you could easily enter the 100 AP range just trying to prevent squirrels from picking up a nut.

 

About EDM:

What is the difference between "object is not there" and "you are incapable of interacting with the object"?

EDM itself notes that it can be used to simualte a "barrier" (without using the Barrier Power). And a "mental barrier" is what you create there.

 

This sounds like a ulitarian spell. Not the Combat Mind Control. And sometimes HERO behaves very ineffectively with Ulitarian Spells.

I think I will go with the Change Environment approach, since I have seen an optional rule that allows it to impose Complications. Thanks for bringing that one up.

Does the rule saying that Senses (as opposed to mere Detects) don't take an action to use trump the rule of powers used at Megascale generally requiring a Full Phase Action (as seen under the Megarange, Megaarea, and Megamovement headings of the Megascale description)? -- Pteryx

"I was talking about your venturing into non-Mind Control approaches, though. The first build isn't really "alternate" so much as trying to make the initial proposal work."

If it works on the first approach, it works on every alterantive approach just as well. (except the EDM approach)

Why waste time with verbosity when everybody can do this in his or her head?

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"I was talking about your venturing into non-Mind Control approaches, though. The first build isn't really "alternate" so much as trying to make the initial proposal work."

If it works on the first approach, it works on every alterantive approach just as well. (except the EDM approach)

Why waste time with verbosity when everybody can do this in his or her head?

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"None of your alternate approaches strike me as having an obvious way to not affect the person who's supposed to take the object, though, which is the only reason not to use Mind Control I can see... "

The very first build has:

"Skips caster and Individual or group selected while casting (+1/4)" It could go to +1/2 or more.

It's a Custom Advantage, based on the values of Personal Immunity and the difference between Selective/Unselective AoE varriants (wich implies selecting target is about a +1/2 advantage).

The biggest problem with Area of Effect (the natrual Choice for a Mind Conrol) is that it does not allow Freind/Foe detection or skipping. You propably also want the allowed person selectable while casting. Let's try this and see where we get:

Mind Control, Area of Effect (radius), Skips caster and Individual or group selected while casting (+1/4), Set Effect ("Stay Away from this object"), IIF (Wardable object of Opportunity).

Would get the work done, but could get too expensive quickly.

 

Maybe Mind Control (the power) is not the right approach? What about other powers with "Mind Control to keep people away" as Special Effect?

EDM can be used to simulate a "Barrier" type effect - if it is not in the same Dimension, it cannot be affected (including taken). Once you have a full effect you can limit it to have a lesser effect - like everyone designated or somebody making a "breakout roll" being able to take it.

 

Somebody could certainly come up with some Change Environment build. I think some people did already for "keep people out of palces".

 

You could invert the approach:

Mental Transform, AoE.

Everyone close to the obejct get's a Psychological Limitation to "Leave this Object alone". The roll to overcome a Complication is rather equal to the roll to break out of a Mental Power. It is specifci enough that it could still be balanced.

Inspired by a certain recurring story coincidence in a favorite crime drama. Note that this only keeps the conversation going; actually making someone discuss what you want them to is up to you and your Interaction Skills.

Actually, You Are Talking: Mind Control 5d6 (25 base points); Invisible Power Effects (inobvious power fully invisible, including to target, +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END, +1/2), Telepathic (+1/4), Trigger (triggered when someone insists they're not talking; activating trigger takes no time, trigger resets automatically, character does not control activation of personal Trigger, +3/4) (87 Active Points); Does Not Grant Mental Awareness (-1/4), No Conscious Control (nature of conversation's continuation is not predictable, -1), Only To Stop People From Ending Conversations (-1/2) (32 real points)

A much cheaper, but GM-controlled and thus probably less reliable and more side-effect-prone, version would have full -2 No Conscious Control instead of Trigger (69 AP, 18 real points). In a game where detection of Mental Powers wouldn't happen, reduce the Invisible Power Effects to +1/2 for invisibility to the target only; the other half is only there because there's technically no in-world power to detect. The version costed above is more the I-don't-trust-my-GM version. -- Pteryx

Since this is a fantasy setting, I would say physical in some form. Gods want worshipers and if a god wants more people to worship it then a physical manifestation would go a long way to convincing others to convert. A god that acts from a distance in secret isn't really different than a god who doesn't exist.

Even if a god does want or need worshipers, it doesn't have to be because they eat faith like the usual trope runs. Maybe the mortal realm is made of tissue paper from a god's perspective; their trying to act directly runs a very real risk of breaking reality, so it's safer to use mortals. In at least one setting I know, the problem is that Fate forces them to act out archetypal patterns, so they need people with more free will.

I'm not sure here whether you're defining the difference as one of capability or of actions taken. It's possible to have a god with a body who never actually visits the mortal plane, but who could be visited by sufficiently powerful PCs.

There's also the question of how "real" or important bodies are. Can you truly kill a god if you beat them up in the proper way, are all bodies mere disposable avatars, are there both avatars and a "real" body, or are there neither? Heck, could a physical god have three equally "real" bodies that you have to all destroy in a short period to kill the god, lest they regrow from its spirit like a gecko's tail?

The "right" answer to any of this is really going to depend on the campaign, but I will say two things. First, I personally don't care for the idea for a physical god who comes across as just a really big mortal. Whether embodied or disembodied, I feel a god should have some global influence trivially available (unless we're talking the little gods of specific rivers or the like, in which case that influence should just be over their whole "territory"). Second, it probably goes without saying that fully disembodied gods are strictly GM territory; a PC defined as a god needs a body to inconvenience with at least some of their capabilities being available only "in person". -- Pteryx

Say you wanted to make the ability to temporarily put a Persistent, Area of Effect Mind Control on an object that dissuades anyone from picking up that object except one person specified when the power is set, whom it beckons instead. Would that need linked Mind Controls, or would a single Mind Control be able to broadcast an intent that complex? General build approaches are welcome as well, though I do have some idea of where to begin. -- Pteryx

If you buy levels of the Reduced Negation Adder for a Power and the Proportional Advantage for it, does the Adder increase proportionately in the defined circumstances too or stay at the same level? For example, would a Mind Control 4d6 vs. the Machine class of minds with Reduced Negation (2) and Proportional (x2 effect on email servers) have Reduced Negation 2 or 4 when targeting an email server? -- Pteryx

The "1d6 will cover it" wouldn't apply to the mindlink construct. It only worked on the Mind Scan construct because if you DIDN'T voluntarily lower your EGO+MD down to 0 then the Mind Scan would fail automatically and your "contact attempt" would fail due to the low dice I put on the Mind Scan. The lovely part about Lucius's power is that even tho its always on the God can choose whether to even be listening or not (note that I didn't realize what you were trying to build when i posted my build). That build gives everyone the power to establish the Mind Link but unless the God (who granted the power) voluntarily lowers his MCV to 0 (and thus is "taking calls") the mind link will fail to connect and the prayer will "fall on deaf ears".

 

If we are talking gods tho Telepathy works just fine. Give the god Penetrating, Telescopic sight "Only to establish LOS for Telepathy" works just fine. He is a God, he sees everything

As for your proposal concerning how to establish LOS for Telepathy, I'm not sure if that works or not. While IRL the maximum range of sight is a function of the earth getting in the way, ruleswise seeing that far seems like the kind of thing one is supposed to use Megascale Senses (which, as I've mentioned, don't actually work as a passive thing by RAW), Clairvoyance (which can't establish LOS), or Mind Scan for, and the rules tend to warn people away from using one mechanic to simulate another, so I'm not sure how many GMs would be on board for that.

(And technically, no, he can't see everything, just all of certain things. )

EDIT: Come to think of it... the god's inability to refuse the Mind Link could count as a Side Effect, which suddenly makes the whole Caller ID as Side Effect thing look less cheesy. After all, by this logic, both sides suffer a Side Effect, just different ones.

Seems like that would only really have the desired effect if Casual PRE were in play, but if it were, that would work very elegantly. -- Pteryx

There seem to be a lot of ways to approach this one, so I'd love to hear opinions: how would you build making it so that a particular class of being can't raise a hand against a specific character? Tigers won't attack the Tiger Princess of the Plains, for example. If it's a sapient class (say, fishermen), this wouldn't rule out indirect means of attack, potentially leading to someone affected manipulating others into attacking the character for them or attacking a DNPC instead. -- Pteryx

If Damage Reduction were limited to only apply after a certain amount of damage gets through your defenses -- the first 12 BODY is ignored but anything in excess of that is reduced by 75%, for example -- how much of a Limitation would that be?

If you're going to use a big Telepathy, maybe you don't need the Mind Link at all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that using Telepathy rather than Mind Link has several benefits, such as eliminating the possibility of being attacked via the link

Between this thread, the one Lucius bumped, and various others around, I've noticed basically three approaches to the idea of statting gods:

1) Gods are GM plot devices, don't you dare stat them up;

2) Gods are disembodied presences with worldwide influence, best statted as AI Computers with thousands of points;

3) Gods are just high-level superheroes with points in the high hundreds or low thousands, and suitable as PCs when done this way.

People in camp #1 are obviously not the market for Mythic HERO. #2 has its uses, but still relegates gods to GM plot devices ultimately, just with listed boundaries. #3... well, I tend to find that approach dissatisfying. You end up with a Zeus who can throw lightning bolts, but not take control of the lightning strikes in a thunderstorm halfway across the world, and to me, the latter is pretty important. The line between superheroes and gods is one I'd prefer to have drawn even if gods happen to have avatars or even "real" (if nigh-impossible-to-kill) bodies, and to me the ability to manipulate one's domain the world over is a key aspect of the "god" side of the line.

As for my own dog in this fight, let me tell you about my character...

What I'm getting at with my rambling behind the spoiler cut is two things. One, approaches #2 and #3 are something of a false dichotomy; it's possible to make a satisfying compromise between the two. Two, you don't have to stick to a pure #3 approach to keep a god playable; spin things right and even a full-fledged small-g god can face conflict. Both of these are things I'd love to see reflected in a book about gods in gaming, both in advice and in the approach to stats. -- Pteryx

OK, this is the take on things I've put together based on that nice last build of Lucius's:

Hear Prayer: Mind Link (to grantor's mind), no LOS needed, any distance, any dimension (25 base points); Invisible Power Effects (inobvious power fully invisible, +1/2), Usable By Nearby (any number of recipients within "10m" (1,000,000 km), recipient fully controls power, grantor can only grant power to others; +1 1/4) (69 Active/real Points).

PLUS

Naked Advantages and Disadvantages on UBN Advantage of Hear Prayer: Affects Desolidified (+1/2), Inherent (+1/4), Megascale (1m = 100,000 km, +2 1/4), Transdimensional (reaches into related group of dimensions, +3/4), Invisible Power Effects (everything about grant of power is fully invisible to both target and other characters, +1 1/2) (194 Active Points); Always On (-1/2) (129 real points).

Most of the Advantages and Disadvantages are on the UBN itself because they affect the granting of the ability to pray, not said ability itself.

The Invisible Power Effects bit is an attempt to make it so that while anyone can pray to the god, no one automatically knows this -- nor do they know that it's working unless the god chooses to respond directly. Whether they know it or not, though, he hears. Even trying to pray, and accepting that it worked, can often be a leap of faith.

The Affects Desolidified and costing of IPE on the Naked Advantage is because while Mental Powers themselves don't need those things, I'm not counting on the same holding true for the granting of Mental Powers. (If it does, though, that'd save +1 in Advantage cost!) The Megascale is that big because I'm building this god to operate at lunar orbital distances, simply as a matter of taste.

No Conscious Control is left out because the power is too predictable for that to apply in any way.

It's Inherent because no, you can't just Dispel/Suppress/Drain the fact that people can pray to a god. I would put that part on the main power and not the power grant, except that it's the power grant that's Always On, not the Mind Link itself, and something has to be Always On before it can be Inherent.

And here's a secondary power:

With Prayers Come Knowledge Of Their Sources: Telepathy 9d6+21 (80 base points); Armor Piercing (+1/4), Autofire (5 facts, +1 1/2); Invisible Power Effects (everything about power is fully invisible to both target and other characters, +1 1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END, +1/2), Trigger (when a Hear Prayer Mind Link is established; one defined condition, activating the Trigger takes no time, character does not control activation of personal Trigger, trigger resets automatically immediately after it activates; +3/4) (440 Active Points); Receive Only (-1/2), Surface Thoughts Only (-1/4), First Five Questions Are Predetermined (name, occupation, emotional state, race/species, age; -1/4), Time Limit (Extra Phase, -3) (88 real points)

This makes it so that the god instantly knows basic information about those who pray to him (barring things like amnesia or a Mental Shape Shift getting in the way, though a more powerful god might not have the Surface Thoughts Only limitation), then can learn five more basic things of his choice in the next Phase. I tried to make it high enough to guarantee that most normal people would succumb while also giving a decent chance of the same happening to more powerful beings. (Alas, just because someone's praying to you doesn't necessarily mean they don't expect it to be anonymous, so the "1d6 is enough due to lowered defenses" rationale doesn't necessarily apply.) I could have tried to turn this into a Side Effect on Hear Prayer instead, which would be more reliable still, but it seems cheesy for something beneficial to the god to result in a discount on Hear Prayer! -- Pteryx

By my understanding, by default, Mind Links are "conference calls", and it's even possible for two such "conference calls" to overlap and interact. How would one modify Mind Link to make it so that it's a series of separate two-way communications with one person instead, preventing other people in the Link from directly interacting or possibly even noticing each other?

Because this grants the Mind Link to every qualified person in the area' date=' it's as if each of them has their OWN Mind Link - so yes, this Deity can hear all prayers at once. How to simulate a mind capable of processing that kind of input, I don't know.[/quote']

 

I'd think buying enough levels of Rapid on the Mental Sense Group would do it. For typical planetary scale, that'd be 50 points. -- Pteryx

 

WAIT A MINUTE!

 

If it's built "Usable by Other, Character can ONLY Grant Power to Others" isn't it up to the "others" i.e. the ones actually initiating the Mind Link, to take the Full Phase at Half DCV?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary takes a Half Phase at Full DCV

What interests me most about this book is the kind of stuff that would be covered in the first chapter.

I'll be honest, what led me to looking at HERO again is that there are really only so many systems that lend themselves to statting up gods. Heck, the real reason behind my starting the thread here ( http://www.herogames.com/forums/forum/hero-games/hero-system-discussion/3598796-mind-link-initiated-in-reverse ) is to help figure out how one would model people praying to a god. "Portfolio sense" is another big one; it's clearly Clairsentience with lots of perception points at its core, but how does one turn that both reflexive and global? The usage time limitations on Megascaled things seem to get in the way of making both that and passive Megasenses. A "follower sense" would be appropriate too.

Even ways to handle worship call for some game stat treatment -- it could be simply an alternate "food" in the way that underwater breathing is the default for aquatic beings, it could be a Dependency that affects Base Characteristics or powers or REC, it could be unnecessary and just be a really expensive Organization Contact, or it could even be an annoyance that qualifies as a Social Complication paired with a Distinctive Feature that Causes Extreme Reactions, making it hard to act directly in the world. Aside from worship, I suggest health of one's domain as a possible important variable; oil spills might make the god of the ocean get sick. -- Pteryx