Hugh Neilson

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Usable on Others Advantage at the +1/4 level (which is what your calculation seems to derive from) would only allow the extra Characteristics to be used by one other person at a time.

That is the comparison I'm working on, yes.

So, if you wanted to boost the characteristics of a second person, you would have to stop doing so for the first person - unless you wanted to keep doubling the number of people on whom the power would be Usable, which would continue to increase the cost. With Aid, you can keep boosting as many people as you want, and once they're Aided they require no further attention to maintain.

True, this would increase the cost. Three doublings would suffice for most super-teams (unless you're in the habit of Aiding bystanders or opponents).

But actually, they do require further attention to maintain, unless you buy a lower fade rate on your Aid. Assuming 5 people (so I need three dublings to get them all) it takes my 5 phases to aid those 5 people (assuming I don't buy an Area Effect, further changing the costs). Assuming a 5 Speed (pretty common), by the time the last guy gets an Aid, the fade starts kicking in.

However, I have considered a +1/2 Advantage to Adjustment Powers to allow the recipients to retain the benefit up to their characteristics' starting values, which was the way Adjustments worked under the 4th Edition rules. A lot of mechanics would be simplified that way. Aid is a good example: apply that +1/2 Advantage and the "Costs END" Limitation and you'd have a power construct that worked pretty much like 4E Aid but cost the same as 5E Aid.

I don't have the book in front of me - I was operating under the belief Aid still cost END (and we know what happens if you assume...) which would tip the comparison somewhat.

I'm inclined to agree with you about Transfers, though. A cap on the amount that you can gain via a Transfer seems reasonable and balances with Aid, but restricting how much the Power can Drain from a target rather diminishes its usefulness as an attack.

Let's say it - it makes the cost unreasonably high. If we didn't have a Transfer power, we'd build it by linking a Drain and an Aid. Just like we build "defensive absorbtion" by linking defenses to absorbtion.

Originally posted by Ben Seeman

So are you saying that the +1/2 Advantage would remove the Fading that is inherent in the Aid?

I'm saying the +1/2 advantage would remove the fading inherent in the Aid ONLY to restore the stat to its starting value. As an example, assume MightyMan has been hit by a 15 point STR drain (and it's long term). Medic has 6d6 STR Aid, with this +1/2 advantage. He rolls a 20, so MightyMan gets +20 STR. At the end of a turn, he loses 5 points STR, which puts him back to his starting STR. He no longer suffers further fades.

Essentially, the +1/2 advantage allows aid which also heals (or, looked at another way, healing which can also grant a temporrary boost).

Originally posted by Arthur

It's just a special effect. If you can create new weapons at will, it's not a Focus. At most, you would get a small Extra Time Lim for the time it takes to manifest.

It could potentially be Restrainable.

IMNSHO, Adjustment powers did not weather the transition to 5e well. Consider Aid: I can spend 10 points to add 1d6 character points which fade at 5 character points per turn, and I pay 1 END to do it.

Or I can buy can buy Characterisics, Usable by Other, Persistent (so it doesn't vanish if I'm knocked out) and get 5 character points for 8.75 (say 9) points, with no fade rate. Shouldn't the more expensive choice carry an advantage, rather than being the more limited approach?

The rules also say I can't use my Transfer as a Drain if I've transferred the maximum. So I guess I should purchase Linked Drain and Aid (or maybe just Characteristics/Power) only to the extent of points drained, and self only. Cheaper, and I get to use my Drain even if I'm aided to the maximum.

I would also suggest the rules permit "No Point Cap" as a +1 advantage (working Regeneration backwards, this is the cost anyway - and an Absorption, half to Stat X and half to Max Point Absorbed would do the same thing at the same cost).

For that matter, why not just let Aid heal if you pay a +1/2 advantage (and make "cannot exceed character's normal stat" a +1/2 limitation). This would all balance out.

I really think that the backlash against some abusive 4e Aids (which probably should have been better considered by GM's in the first place - maybe "GM's should closely scrutinize Aids purchased to recover STUN or END" should be in the power description) resulted in a swing too far the other way in respect of adjustment powers.

To my mind, if the same effect can be purchased different ways, the costs should be equivalent. For that reason, I was glad to see the Hand Attack solution - it's extra STR with a limit "only to increase damage" (or an EB with the advantage "STR adds", and limited with "No Range", "No spreading", etc.). It was a bit ridiculous that "Hand Attack w/ Range" was 10% cheaper than EB.

But I digress. The point is, I think the pendulum swung too far against adjustment powers this time.

Just tangentially, while the basis (I assume) for this character works fine on TV, you're kind of assuming your GM will not have any action during the day. If he does, then your character obviously misses it. If he doesn't, then the "statue by day" disadvantage isn't really all that disadvantageous.

You might want to consider foregoing that aspect of the character in the interests of playability.

I suppose you could take a 1d6 BOD drain (average 2 BOD) linked to a 2d6 STUN drain (average 7 Stun), make them both Ranged, and Limit them to be defended by ED (or PD - depends on your special effect) and create the effect of a 2d6 EB. Although it would be more lethal, as it would take 2 DEF to block 1 BOD damage, since every BOD is 2 character points.

hmmm...I'll have to price that out sometime. I can't imagine it's cheaper than an EB. The ranged Hand Attack was (3pts/die x 1.5 for Range = 9 points for 2 dice). But that's fixed now.

What we classicvally think of as "Telekinesis" isn't the base power. It's more liky psychokinesis with the Invisible advantage (good luck buying that with a high STR! - ASIDE - since it only targets with Ego, maybe the advantage should be lower than +1)

The base power is more like Green Lantern lifting the bad guy with a Power Ring hand, or lifting a speeding car over an obstacle with a Power Ring roadway.

Originally posted by Kristopher

I think that when you have two linked powers, and one of them lowers the target's defenses against the other, the one that lowers the defense always goes off last. IIRC.

I think Steve addressed this on the rules board, and noted that, since a PRE attack is a fre action, you could PRE drain, then follow immediately with a PRE attack anyway. No need to link them.

I would say that's the way to apply it under the rules - add this sense as one in Clairsentience. However, how much use it would be is open to debate. If the character's Danger Sense is limited to danger to him personally, he's not going to get hurt by someone being in an area he's scannong 50 miles away, so it won't pick up on the fact that, for example, there's a guy hidingb behind the curtain with a shotgun.

Broader Danger Sense might work (eg. danger to others), but unless the character has some m,eans of communicating over that distance (eg. Mind Link with a character on site), he's going to feel a lot like the guy watching a movie yelling "NO! Don't go in the basement!"

I don't see anything wrong with disadvantages taking a limitation where appropriate, and OIHID seems like a reasonable one.

Obviously, a Secret ID that acts on an 11 or less isn't going to make any sense, but some limitations fit some disadvantages quite nicely.

Originally posted by Al_Beddow

Hugh, I suspect you are right. I never thought of it that way..

 

So, when someone goes to one of our two local gaming stores, orders something special, and then doesn't pick it up (pay for it), it's worse for one of our stores than say for a store in a city with a better economy (and more profits to help cushion taking a hit like that).

The player base will also have an impact.If the store has a big customer base, they may be more comfortable that someone will buy it, even if you don't. The popularity of the system would have an impact as well - the stuff he's sure will sell is probably already on the shelf.

And if half a dozen people ask him to order in, say, Ultimate Vehicle, he's probably going to consider a shelf copy or two for the guys who would buy it, but won't order it. [Hence, always ask your game store why they aren't carrying Hero products.]

Perhaps the rule should be that you can inflict up to DEF dice with your improvised weapon without damaging it. Every die after that inflicts one body, and the most you can inflict is DEF + 2x BOD (ie enough to destroy the object).

I like the idea of basing the extra damage on the object's DEF. No matter how big it is, how much is your damage going to increase from swinging a feather? Maybe +1d6 for every 2 or 3 DEF of the object, porovided DEF is based on hardness.

There's lots of questions. For example, if the object is clearly demolished in the attack, would it do any real damage, or just crumple on impact. Maybe the STR add cannot exceed the DEF + BOD (or DEF + 2xBOD) of the object, just like "realistic" weapons can't add more damage than their own DC. Yeah, I know that rule doesn't apply to weapons in supers campaigns, but that's because MightyMan paid points for his 2d6 billy club - he didn't pay points to pick up a city bus. The points include training/skill to override that limitation.

Of course, we get "but what about Character X" - the Flash can punch a playing card through an oak tree, for example. Yup - he paid points to do that (either bought a power or used Power skill). If you want to pay the freight, you can do the same thing.

Originally posted by Klytus

I feel the need to make it worth at least 90 AP because 75% Resistant Damage Reduction is 60 points, and anything that is essentialy 100% RDR must be more expensive.

Given the progression in Damage Reduction, there's a certain logic in saying 100% Damage Reduction costs 80 points, 120 points if you want it Resistant. Now apply your limitation (remembering that it's based on how common a subset of your type of damage reduction the attack is - "punches" are a pretty common physical attack).

Of course, for 120 active points, you could also buy +80 ED, and make it resistant, then limit it to only vs. X attack form. Assuming a 20 ED to begin with, your opponent needs a lot of points to hurt you. As a GM, I think I'd be comfortable saying that, for the same 120 points, you can be completely immune to that effect (assuming I would allow the +80 DEF in the first place, I suppose).

Originally posted by Al_Beddow

I hate it when people pull that crap.

 

Personally I have no problem with paying a deposit to get something special in to a store. I've never been asked for one but when I first moved here I offered it to be polite.

I suspect the fact you offered is a primary reason they didn't ask for one. It makes it clear you understand the guy's in business and you're making a commitment when you ask him to order something special.

[No, I don't own or work in a game store, but I do know business.]

Originally posted by Citizen Keen

Do you mean side effect? How do you build a power with a susceptibility?

The power doesn't have a susceptibility, the character takes one as a disadvantage. I suppose you could take a limitation on the END battery that it loses X points when the force field is struck, but the disadvantage seems like the most straightforward way to get the result.

Originally posted by needo

megamat?

A big battlemat. Basically, a big roll-up hex map you can write on with eraseable markers. You can find them in hex maps and squares in various sizes. Megamats are fairly large, so there's room for a lot of scenery in the game (ie characters are less likely to be knocked off the map). Very helpful in combat for seeing where everyone is and mapping out movement.

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

If a GM allowed it?

 

Ok, you get a 60 point Pool + (120 Control / 1.5) = 150 real cost to be invulnerable to any one Tight SFX, one at a time.

Should be 120/2 (very limited class of powers, such as only drains). And I believe, based on the power as drafted, I can get a very broad range of effects so long as I limit it to only one character (for example, All Energy Powers, Only Firewing - I can get anything short of all-encompassing, which is listed as +2, as long as I accept that it only applies to one person. hmmm..."All technology-based powers, only Dr. Destroyer".

If I can get a 75 point pool, then I can get very broad effects, only one person. So that's 75 points + (75 *.5 *2.5 /2) = 122 points. Definitely expensive, but I suppose I could broaden it against groups which share a common special effect (such as a group of mutants). I could also accept taking a half phase (cost 113) or a full phase (103 pts) - I can always abort to activate a defense action (which includes shifting power framework points to get that defense power).

Still pretty expensive - I could get +30/+25 PD/ED resistant and hardened for the same cost. But that leaves me open to Flash, Power defense, NND's and mental attacks. My VPP leaves me primarily exposed to multiple attackers. Of course, I have almost 250 points left to buy attack, movement and some other defensive abilities, so I shouldn't be totally defenseless if someone other than my "chosen immunity" attacks me.

Originally posted by lemming

Phew. I was having flashbacks from a previous concept (1982 vintage) of someone who had a Sword character. He took OAF on everything, since a sword is a focus... (needless to say, we made a plow)

I recall a story about a GM who ran an alien invasion scenario. The aliens were large hands. Of course, he was using hit locations, so guess what?

Re: Marvel and DC Universes

Originally posted by Colossus

I know I started with the original Marvel (pre-Advanced Marvel) system from TSR. The system had a wonderful universe that I cared about, but once you’re over about 14 you discover the system fails to live up to the level of HERO (or even a modern d20 system).

Or rock/scissors/paper

Or tossing coins

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Wow. Sounds like they are operating in the red.

Or they've been burned before. "Oh, order this for me and I'll buy it when it comes in." When it arrives..."Oh, I bought it somewhere else last week" or "Oh, I forgot to tell you I don't want it any more."

Why don't you buy the force field and END battery normally, and take a susceptibility to the force field being struck which does END damage?

It spends ordinary END from the reserve to maintain, loses END when struck, and goes down when it's out of END. You could use "standard effect" on the susceptibility to have a fixed cost of being hit.

You could also add dice for more powerful attacks if you want the END loss to be greater for harder hits, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're aiming for.

You could make the force field "no END", or make recovery equal to 5=SPD x FF END cost to have the battery drained only when hit.

Does EVERYONE use a Speed Chart?

I just sort all the NPC's involved (character sheets) by DEX, mark their phases and the figure representing them at the top of the page.

I played once with a GM who lived by his Dex chart, and you would be amazed how badly a DEX drain (or Aid) would blow his ability to track combat.

"Dex 26 - Big Bill goes"

"wasn't Big Bill DEX drained?"

"Oh yeah, he doesn't move until later (DEX 22, but he won't say the DEX)"

Dex 22 generally came and went without ol' Bill moving - he wasn't on the chart at Dex 22.

Actually, a 2d6 area effect DEX drain would have been very effective in that campaign...

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Invulnerability Cost: 60 points for Invulnerability to a single tightly defined Special Effect approximately 15% prevelant to the game setting. [/b]

hmmmm...60 point VPP, Cosmic, only to purchase Invulnerabilities...hmmmm....

Where's my NFW stamp?

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

You will get a smorgasborg of input usually. The disconcerting thing is you wont often get a unanimous response -- that whole "more than 1 way to skin a cat" bit insures that there will often be multiple viewpoints on how to accomplish what you ask for.

 

Plus you'll get the musings from those, like myself, who never want to take the most straightforward result.

There's got to be way to build an energy blast besides just buying "energy blast", don't you think? Before 5e, I had one player try to buy a Hand Attack with Range as an advantage

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Yes, I understand the effect, but it still does not strike me as efficient. I would rather go double AP or double penetrating, depending on the number of dice involved and circumvent Hardened altogether. Also, its hard to argue with simply going with more dice to surpass defenses, or Variable Advantage (+1; any 1/2 of Advantages) and tuning the attack as needed.

 

Granted, I had forgotten that 5th ed nerfs Hardened, so it does make it more viable in 5th.

Prior to 4th Ed, AP Penetrating vs 1 level of Hardened meant AP was lost but penetrating got through (at least that was the rule when penetrating first came in). Generally, I've only seen AP Penetrating on KA's, as another poster notes above, to ensure some BOD gets through.

In the specific example, it was (IIRC) a 1d6+1 autofire penetrating KA with a horrendous number of charges through an OAF sidearm. Adding the "penetrating" cost 5 points (20 base points, half that for the advantage, halved again due to the focus) so it was a pretty cheap addition. And, of course, penetrating was brand new, so it was as much a "let's see how this new toy works" decision as anything else. The way it worked, however, was to strip away 5+ BOD on a typical attack. On a well-nigh invulnerable, but easy to hit, opponent, I'm pretty suire he managed 10+ BOD in one shot at least once.