Legendsmiths

Xia, that is more or less the same system that d20 Modern uses (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrdwealth.rtf).

I think it is a fine system, as long as your focus is not on the traditional amassing of wealth as is typical of many fantasy campaigns. We tried using this system in cyberpunk and found it didn't really work there as well. While it does a great job of simplifying purchasing and equipment management, allowing focus on adventure, it eliminates some of the metagaming aspect of "do we have enough healing potions". The issue we ran into in cyberpunk is that no one was running out of ammo unless it was a long firefight... they always had as much ammo as they could carry and were never really short on cash.

Other than that I think it is a fine idea.

For a look at a modern world impacted by industrial magic (and light, couldn't resist), war golems, zombie-slave labor, take a look at GURPS Technomancer. They discuss circles of mages that can put stuff into orbit, transmitting magic power via power lines, dragons as soldiers, flying carpets, etc.. It's perhaps a little more modern than you would like, but the economic impact is discussed and is probably extensible.

I don't think FH could be a stand alone game without have some kind of default world, which is probably a bad idea. So much of fantasy needs to be examined from a Hero perspective I think FH will be fine as is.

As for the weapons chart, it would be nice to see a rework, but I can deal if not. I can always make my own.

Really, FH is more of a GM's guide, followed by a magic guide and a monster guide. 3 books to complete a system isn't that bad at all, and quite reasonable. I'm sure that armed with FH, Grimoire, and M&M you will be able to play a complete game, and that the fantasy setting they are cooking up with utilize these resources just like Terran Empire will use Star Hero. I'm all for it. With these rules I can define my world and have a complete game.

Huzzah!

We're all cool and the gang then.

I was more reacting to the following quote:

If the game is too hard for you play D&D!

 

So tired of this stinks because of tactics or this stinks because you know you can get away with it. Well someone messed up if you get to plan sweeps, so guess what "too bad for the baddies!"

and

No END? Its bad enough no Speed. I say if you can't handle the sytem play Toon or Amber or some other schmuk sytem that doesn't require thinking.

Intentional flame or no, those quotes are pretty inflamatory, even when peppered with "Don't take offense". That just made you sound patronizing. More than a personal issue, I was also stepping up to say, "Hey, all of these ideas are valid, and belittleing people telling them to go play Toon, isn't very appropriate." Either participate in the conversation, don't participate, offer constructive criticisms, I don't care. But don't step in, tell someone not only are their ideas half-baked but that if they can't deal with the complexities of Hero to ship off. A discussion of the point may bring people around to realize the system works fine as is, but beating them with the book isn't the way to do that. I'm being honest when I say that there is no malice in my posting here, but I think it is important that ideas, good or bad, are not quashed.

You then launched into a critique of my suggestion. I was taking a minimalist approach in my post, and assumed I would not need to post things like -1 STUN and -11 STUN are unchanged, etc. I only posted what I had changed from the stock rules.

I think at this point if you want to discuss my response to my perception of your post as a flame, feel free to email me directly.

So, now let's dive into the particulars.

No free recovery for END & STUN post-seg 12. Also, no tracking of basic END (strike, move, etc.). This is only appropriate for a heroic game, not supers.

Combat can now move along without players or the GM having to track END for every sword swing and every bit of movement. This makes managing thugs much easier, as well as simplifies what players have to track. Now the only time players have to make note of END use is when they do something exceptional (pushing, sweeps, etc.), which is when play usually slows down a bit anyway.

Negative STUN effects are unchanged. My comment about a string of phases, one after the other, is how the system feels since as a GM I never say, "alright, everyone take a recovery". The combat just rolls along. There are still turns, and people still bleed, we just no longer have that metagaming pause.

The bottom line is this is a really minor tweak to the rules, that balances out overall. It doesn't complicate things because all of the other rules are still in place. The only concession is that STUN builds up more quickly, but overall this only slightly increases the lethality of the game, which is fine IMO since Hero is fairly, well, heroic.

I whole-heartedly agree with you that Hero is one of the finer systems out there. The flexibility is one of its strengths.

I also agree, as my prior post states, that randomization is probably a wash in the long run, and probably mixes things up unnecessarily. It can be fun, sure, but the end result is a more or less flat system.

Look at the D&D Initiative system. Everyone rolls a d20, with a variance of DEX bonus and maybe Improved Initiative. Once the combat begins, the initiative is static. I think the real issue is surprise, and how to handle it. I handle it by starting combat in segment 12, but require a PER roll by all potentially surprised targets (which could be everyone) to react. If they fail, they have to make an EGO roll, cumulative +1 per phase, before they can act. Additionally, they are considered Surprised and Out of Combat until the next turn begins.

Whew, I think that's it for now. Keneton and I have beat each other and this horse to a pulp. I apologize if I killed this thread, and hopefully I offered enough morsels the discussion can continue.

I think the Deadlands initiative system would map very well to Hero. Using SPD to determine your cards, essentially you have the same thing as the SPD chart, just that the sequence is all jumbled.

NICE.

I haven't experienced much of the metagaming aspects of the SPD chart so it has never really upset me.

Fundamentally, any random system you introduce ultimately normalizes on the speed chart (for the most part), so why bother. Unless you introduce a system which combines the randomness with sequencing as well as tracking (i.e. cards), it might just be more effort than it is worth.

I don't see held actions as that much of a problem. Sure you can delay, but unless you are going to defend, you've given up the ability to do full phase actions plus you have to win a contest of DEX. If you want to introduce tactics, I would suggest you use that instead of DEX, and make tactics an everyman skill. That way fighters will have it, most will not, and many of your rolls will be 11- v. 8-. But if you are going to do THAT, why not make a talent called "Master Warrior" that lets you win all such contests unless the other person is a Master as well. Does Lightning Reflexes add to DEX rolls for purposes of this? Perhaps you might allow it.

Step off Keneton. You make a lot of presumptions in your rebuttal of my suggestions. So, in the interest of understanding, let me explain:)

1. I never said to get rid of SPD. SPD still exists and is still used.

2. Post-Segment 12. Please, make a logical extension. Regens, drains, etc. all work as normal. In that sense the ps12 still exists, you just get no recovery.

3a. I never said get rid of END, just don't use it for basic actions. This came out of a discussion based on guns in combat. If I half-move and fire my gun I will spend (as a normal) most likely 1 END for movement. If I have a SPD of 4, and a REC of 4 (average), the END for the turn is a wash. So, why track it? It's wasted bookkeeping that slows the game down. Yet at the same time I don't want to lose the fact that you are spending END, therefore it makes sense to have the REC and END cancel each other out.

3b. Now, STUN. Here I was actually going for an action movie feel. With the elimnation of the ps12 REC, you can now run out of STUN much more quickly unless you take REC during combat.

This system ends up being very heroic, fast, and fun. I too have been gaming a while, and am a long time Hero gamer. I am very familiar with the system, and I know this is a fun way to play the game. After 2 campaigns, my players would agree.

The tag line on the rulebook is "The Gamer's Toolkit", not "The Gamer's Bible". Hero is a framework meant to be extended to create the atmosphere you want to acheive, not to accept the rules as canon and TOTW (The One True Way).

I would sling your condemnation right back at you and say that if you can't deal with the idea of rules extensions and modifications, that you take FRED, crawl into a hole, and ignore all other game mechanics as inferior.

The rest of us would like to continue our discussion of the merits and options of initiative/speed systems, and what works for us.

Thanks for your support.

gm1978: I think that is something more appropriate for the Grimoire and won't be in the FH book. The FH book will be about making magic systems, and won't include many spells at all.

By and large, I think that's okay. Every world is different and there shouldn't be a canon set of spells. That said, we need to see more settings that include not only the magic system, built using the FH guidelines, but all the spells that exist for that world. Then newcomers to the system/world can pick and choose spells just like weapons/armor.

Unfortunately, that takes time and effort.

We actually do a couple of things that may help, although we use the stock speed chart. Here goes:

1. No post-segment 12 recovery. Ever. If you want to recover, you take a Recovery and put yourself at a disadvantage. This forces players to move to the safety of cover so they can get back END/Stun.

2. No END for a basic action. Strike, Move, etc. cost no END. Extraordinary actions cost END, such as Sweeps (pay END for the additional attacks), and aborts (1 + ENC level in END). The aborts rule helps encourage the held action, and captures the "oh my god I've gotta get outta here" feel. The no END for basic actions simplifies bookkeeping, forcing you to track END only for extraordinary things (like pushing). This of course also balances the lack of a free recovery in #1.

3. Dive for Cover. I posted a rules question on the old boards and got an answer from Steve I didn't expect, but it works awesome. You can DfC vs. melee attacks. This especially fun against Haymakers which land at the end of the next segment, so your target can always abort. Last session I had an angry dwarf chasing his foe across the room with haymakers as the foe kept aborting to DfC. They were the same speed. This is also great for Mages or other physically weak characters (DEX-1 gets you out of harms way), and allows someone to step in to keep the baddies busy. DfC has the drawback that you are prone (1/2 DCV) until your next action, but you do get totally out of the way. They don't even get an attack roll and the DEX roll is not opposed.

4. No hit locations for thugs (x3 STUNx always), unless they make a called shot. This really helps move things along when battling a mass of gobbos or such.

We've played with these mods in 2 campaigns, one was a cyber-arcane-horror game and the current fantasy game. Hero combat moves very quickly. I recommend them highly, especially the END for aborts thing as it really encourages the held actions, which avoids the stock rigidness of the SPD chart.

Compared to other systems where either multiple attacks are too difficult to handle mechanically (RoleMaster) or too deadly (GURPS) or too disjointed (D&D... my turn, I use Improved Trip and follow up with 4 attacks), it allows for fighters with multiple attacks spread evenly throughout the turn.

Once the p-s 12 recovery is gone, we really ignore the "end of turn" scenario, and pretty much just play a string of segments.

If you wanted to mix up your combat starting point, of the combatants who are not surprised have them make DEX rolls. The best roll chooses which phase to begin the combat in. I haven't tried this, but it might be interesting.

I have to side with Markdoc on this one, Old Man. The grimoire is a useful starting point for people who are new to Hero and just want to come to grips on how to make spells.

The problem with the sources you quoted is there are few definitive resources that provide enough detail to build spells off of, certainly in my experience anyway. If I am wrong, I challenge you to step up to the plate, throw together a simple website with links to gameable sources of information on the topics you mention.

If anyone is looking for a nice source of spell ideas beyond the unbalanced flash-bang of D&D, I would suggest GURPS Magic for inspiration on non-epic fantasy magic, Ars Magica for flavor and depth, and Spell Law. Authentic Thaumaturgy is also an excellent read, and can be had from SJ Games.

Mass for weapons and armor, including shields. There are rules for enc, but no mass for these objects (except armor). For any equipment lists you come up with, please include Mass. It wasn't in the old FH and that was quite annoying. It's a minor point, but an important one.

I would like to see a fantasy version of Star Hero, which it sounds like you are doing. This will be a great tool for building campaign material, not definitive material in itself.

A section on traps would be nice, pit traps, spike traps, arrow traps (what is the OCV of an arrow trap or do you simply dive for cover).

Typical dungeon crawling schticks like searching for secret doors, area of light sources, etc.

Somewhere we need to see poisons and diseases. In the absence of such material, I've been using the OGL materials.

I'm working on a more detailed look at it and will post an update in the future.

Right now I'm thinking that you use that formula, but then crafting time is hours for scrolls, days for potions, and weeks as items. The fade rate for the drain matches the time requirement, which makes crafting magic items a draining approach.

I use real points because I feel that limited items should be easier to make than non-limited items, which active points won't capture.

Since these are consumed, I'd rather not have people pay points for them. However, I am willing to have people pay coin, either to buy them outright or to buy the materials to create them.

For enchanters I generally require side effects on all enchantments based on the Real Points of the target item (ignoring Independant). The side effects (2x Real Points in Active Points) are a mana drain, recovery period is a day, AND an END drain (if mana and END are separate). This is for abilities beyond the base item.

So, a +1 OCV/+1 DC sword is 10 Active Points, but probably 5 Real Points, which results in 20 Active Points of Side Effects, or a 1d6 Drain on Mana and END, recovering 5 CP per day.

Enchanters can use magical materials (essence nodes, magical organs from creatures, etc.) as power defense against this drain.

I was thinking that scrolls/potions should cost in coin:

Real * 2^(Real/3), or something like that.

I invite you to review the magic system we use in our Fantasy Game. It's been absolutely fabulous and very fun to play.

It does deviate a little from "stock" Hero, but it is still Hero in all the right places.

http://www.tekhed.com/hero/magic.php

Heroic Characters

Alpha has a HKA Damage Shield (spiky stones) and carries a large shield (+3 DCV). OCV 3/DCV 6 (w/ Shield)

Monster is a generic creature with HKA (claws). CV 6

Monster attacks Alpha and rolls a 12, missing. However, he missed only because Alpha has a large shield. Without his large shield, that would have been a hit.

Story-wise, it seems the blow was deflected by the shield. Mechanically, it was a clean miss.

Is Monster affected by the Damage Shield (spikey stones)?