Chimpira

Re: Champions universe created by magic?

It would all be your accomplishments. You'd just be living in a reality where a few more things are possible to accomplish for someone with enough talent and drive. It's like asking how much of the incredibly long leaps you can do in 1/6th gravity is you. It's all you.

That is one way of looking at it and is very true but another way would be for me to say that it was the drugs that allowed me to run faster than everyone else. Now I am doing the actually running but I needed to be pumped up to do it. The only problem is that I had no idea that I was taking drugs when I was running. I thought that I was really capable of running like that. Sucker.

Well' date=' you've shifted from a genre in which there are no characteristic maxima to one in which they are required, so your intelligence would presumably drop by half of the excess. Unlike super-strength, science fiction scientists are often nearly as capable as the comic book variety,[/quote']

 

That rationale makes it just a little bit harder to understand why super science stops. I can see that if I had a 30 INT and designed a teleporter based off of my skill set (I know that it was based off my skill set because I designed it with requires a skill roll) that when I dropped 10 INT points it would no longer work. However, if I have a 20 INT and designed a Teleporter based off a skill roll, I would assume that with out the magic that is lighting my way I could not see all the principals that I could before, even with eidetic memory, so a little skill loss is conceiviable.

 

That only seems fair because everyone else is losing so much more.

 

David, this is fun and all but I think that we are discussing this matter a little more than it really needs to be discussed. I am not going to change my mind. Or at the very least I am not going to change it anytime soon. Plus we are having a discussion about super science and rationality in a world that defies rationalization.

 

I have seen the waxing and waning of powers before in different genres, most notably in the Trinity series from Aberrant. I did not have a problem with it there but it was pretty upfront and center that this was a game about people with powers and not a superhero game. I want to be able to tell time travel stories in which they can glimpse their future and possibly the future of some DNPC's as they step up to carry the torch. This is a time honored tradition in comics. I choose to not use the one source of power that causes all other powers to work for this one game. I am not trying to change your mind and I am not trying to say that it is dumb. I just do not care for it. I can sit back and throw out reason after reason and you can counter them as I throw them out but simply put it is just not to my taste.

 

However if you want to discuss anything else further, why don't you shoot me a PM. It has been a pleasure. Repped.

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

Subscribe.

 

After 20 years of meta humas is impossible that no one write a law about them.

I think that the main problem for me is the integration between a pre-existing campaign and the new one. If a GM use the CUII for new one setting all is ok, but I play campaign started in 1995 (yes a long term campaign). The original one ended in 2001 with a great battle against the evil main organizzation which subdle tried to conquer the world. Recently we re-start the campaign with a "five years later" settings. I had to integrate my sinopsys with the new Champions generation (I recently played the Battle for Detroit where the PG and others fight Dr. D for a total of 15 heroes again the Doctor).

It will be interesting a complete description of old plots. What I mean is "What the hell is doing all these heroes and criminals while we are talking?".

It's impossible that only the Players had adventures. In five years even other team had fight, win and loose battles. If you may add these informations these can be used from to add information to the campaign and/or create new adventures.

 

...And bring back the Protector and Quasar!

I would find that really helpful for my own campaign. I messed with the timeline a little and had The Champions appear in 1996 and they are based in Chicago. (I knew that eventualy we were going to get an update for some of these characters so my PC's have not met the Champions yet, but they hear about them.) I placed my PC's in Millenium City in 2001 (we are about to make the leap to 2002 after the climatic fight with The Crowns of Krim). My PC's are tackling everything the book said that the Champions went up against. Beyond that I try to run an official universe as close as I can. A timeline for other heroes and villians during this period would be invaluable to me. Of course I would where other GM's might go eh.

Re: Champions universe created by magic?

Why would you drop any skills? Star Hero has as much room for gigantic omnicompetent skill meisters as any comic book game.

Well, I know for a fact that you would need to drop some DC if you are a Martial Artist. If my super strength is taken away, why not my super intellect? Without the influence of magic how can you say that a skill load like Dr. Destroyer is not superhuman? Some talents border on the superhuman and some gleefully cross the line. Or maybe Magic is still around in enough quantities that maybe you still retain all your knowledge but you think slower if you used to have over a 20 INT?

At this point, I do not think that it really matters. Some people like it, some people hate it and some people just do not care. I know why they did it and all truth be told I want to like it because I want to link all the hero systems together but I just can not get into it. I am not going to rail against the creators because I love what they do and in my campaign The PC's have taken the place of the Champions so none of this stuff is going to come to pass in the first place.

Re: Champions universe created by magic?

What makes you think your computer all of a sudden will no longer work? Of course it'll continue to work. It's mundane technology. You said so yourself. However' date=' I have to wonder...where did you get the components from to make your decades in advance computers work? In reality, nobody is ever decades ahead of their time, no matter how smart they might be. You railroad, when it's railroading time, and not before. Transport this computer back in time to the 50s, with complete documentation concerning how it works, and the reality is if it breaks, the greatest minds of the decade will probably not be able to fix it. The replacement parts to do it simply don't exist and can't be fabricated using the technology of the time. Super-technology, by it's nature is dependant on some kind of cheat, some kind of unique resource that is in short supply. That's why people don't just put it on the open market and make a fortune with a flying car in every garage. It's not because they're too stupid to see the mass market commercial applications. It's because there ARE no mass market applications. They can't be made in bulk because there isn't enough of that resource to make that possible. Remove the resource, whether it's "vibranium" or the unique handicrafting of a few whose work can't be duplicated by others, and the technology itself stops being available as surely as my car is a worthless hunk of junk without a functional battery.[/quote']

 

Actually I was inspired by an old comic where the hero was known as Captain Future (I think) He was around in the 40's and his future ultra cool tech came from the 90's. (it is a little more detailed than that and had some very mad great ideas in it) A computer like the one currently sitting at my desk would indeed be seen as Super Science in the fifties and the sixties. But the point is that it is several decades a head of its time. Would the thing break down. Yes it would and then we would need to repair it but no one can in that time period but when someone can would that mean we had magic to thank for the fact that we now can repair this relic of a mysterious old crime fighter? What would be our accomplishments and what would be based off of magic?

 

And please do not believe that I am mad or upset in any way because you do make a valid point.

Re: Champions universe created by magic?

Well' date=' we hashed that out at GREAT length on the boards a while back, and I certainly don't want to revisit that experience. Anyone who really wants to get into the pro and con arguments, the interpretations and hair-splitting, can sift through that earlier thread. I'll just offer my own elaborations from that discussion, and leave it at that.

 

When I think of "supertech," I think of something being created which operates on a level beyond anything that contemporary science is capable of making practical. A technological leap that goes from early twenty-first century tech to something that rivals the performance of tech from civilizations hundreds or thousands of years older.

 

To my way of thinking, supertech rivals the performance of technology from an older culture, but doesn't duplicate the principles of it. FTL drive may be possible, and we have various theories as to how it might be achieved, but at this point in our scientific evolution we don't have a clue as to how to make it work practically. Other, older civilizations may have discovered ways to do this because their science has evolved further.

 

Going back to my earlier darkened room analogy, science as we understand it is the result of feeling around in the dark. The longer someone has to do it, the more of the room he can map out, the more objects in it he can discover, measure and catalogue, and the more ways to rearrange things he can experiment with. Eventually he may have worked out a pattern for getting to any point in the room quickly without bumping into anything. With the "light" of magic, someone can see the whole room, and make the imaginative leap to realize that he can use visual clues to do the same thing. But when the light is gone the visual clues are gone, and that realization becomes useless.

 

Comparing this to magic, the condition of its presence makes something physically possible that is not possible without it. If you have a self-repairing machine that responds to conditions that no longer apply, it won't work. Just to continue with the light analogy, a camera is a mechanism that works according to reproduceable physical principles. You can build a completely automatic camera, but if you leave it in the dark it won't "work" the way it's supposed to. Or on an even more basic level, what happens to machines that run on electricity when the current is cut off? Or that run on alternating current after all of it changes to direct?

 

Someone on that other thread brought up the example of a stone-age person building a catapult. For an early stone-age man to create a functioning catapult as we understand it would require basic knowledge of physics, mathematics and structural engineering which a stone-age society may be far from developing. However, with the presence of "light" our stone-age genius may perceive another way to create a catapult. It may function like a real-world catapult, but a modern engineer looking at it would say, "Waitaminnit, where's the counterweight to the projectile? The center of gravity is off for this thing, and these materials don't have the tensile strength to withstand that much torque. There's no way it can work!" And yet it does, or at least it did. (Kind of like how superheroes can throw a truck a mile without the opposite reaction hurling them back even farther.) Without the "light" it won't work, and our neolithic savant won't be able to reproduce it since the conditions which enabled it no longer exist. He remembers what he did and can try to explain it, but it won't make sense to anyone familiar with modern science.

 

Again, this may not satisfy you, and that's reasonable. Ultimately what "works" is going to vary from person to person, and since these games are supposed to be for pleasure you should use whatever rationale pleases you the most.

 

Just for the record, I don't really like the magic rationale either. I'd rather they'd use something like "cosmic energy" or "quantum flux". But I can work with it.

 

And having said everything I have to contribute to this topic, I shall now gracefully withdraw.

Like I said before I liked your analogy but I think that we are trying too much to force a square peg into a round hole. We needed to get to Star Hero somehow.

There is nothing wrong with people using the timeline and the presence of magic as the reason people are smart or skilled or whatever. I mean when magic goes do my talents leave also? How many skills do I drop? If you like it then please use it. It would not stop me from playing in anyones game. I just do not have to worry too much about the storylines with my son or daughter coming back to warn dear old Dad. What? Please it HAS to be a plot. There is no magic in the future when I would have an adult son. Probably Dr. Destroyer pulling my leg.

I stated that I would not use it because I feel that it does not work for my game and really just feels wrong to me to tell a player that the self made man he was supposed to be playing really just owes everything to magic.

Of course, I did also mention that I did not see why X would fail and you have written an answer to that, although it might be wasted on me, I think other GM's will find it very useful. It seems I must spread more Rep around before giving you anymore.

Re: Champions universe created by magic?

But, if "magic" had cut out a couple of decades ago, presumably his "technology" would have ceased operating. Yes, that is, stuff which is entirely routine now would have ceased to function.

 

My point exactly

Re: Champions universe created by magic?

I do not use it. Mainly because it screws up a lot of the Days of Future Past storylines I might want to tell. Magic leaves in what? 14 years? No superheroes by that time?

Lord Liaden's analogy works pretty well for the most part and I do like it but if I made a self repairing machine that just required me to push the button to operate it, I am not getting why it no longer works. I understand that my capacity to fully understand, build and repair the thing has been dampened but I just do not get why it no longer works.

Let's say for example magic went away during the 70's. Now I am a super science crime fighter in the 50's and the 60's and I built a super computer and happened upon a way to link various other organizations to a network so that we can share information. I named the computer Dell Dimension 3000 and the network I dubbed the Internet. I used all the principals that we use now for the computer and The internet. Because I am decades ahead of the curve I write down all this information in manuals so that others that I have linked to the network can repair their computers and keep the internet up and running. Then, in 1970 all the magic is gone. Now the principals that I had used were solid they were just decades ahead of their time. Why does my computer all of a sudden no longer work? (Beyond the obvious fact that I cursed myself by calling it a Dell) When would it be practical for it to work? If someone understood the manuals would that mean that the magic is coming back? I see a lot of things on the streeet now a days that I would have only seen in Science Fiction movies when I was a kid and I do not think magic has anything to do with it.

But really it goes beyond that. You see when I had played gadgeteers in the past the thing I liked most about them was that they were creating things with their own hands and imagination. The idea of knowing that the things you build will make an impact on populace of the planet, maybe not today as a superhero but one can not be a superhero forever. I had my gadgeteers go up against the big threats like alternative fuel sources, food shortages and how to bring rain to drought ridden lands. The idea that one day my character could really make a difference. Until someone clues me in that I was not as smart as I thought I was. That everything that I built was a colossal waste of time. That all I was really doing was playing dress up the whole time and it is time for you to get a real job. That all the money you were paying to help Ravenswood Academy keep running should have been invested in stocks and bonds instead. I really could have used that money to because now I am getting sued for selling equipment that would never conceivably work and they do not seem to buy my story about magic going away.

I, also, like the idea of a legacy. I am not knocking other GM's for working with this or even liking it. I am just not interested in it, whether there is a good explanation or not. It just makes me feel like I am cheating the players out of a future for their characters.

Re: Pyramid in the Sky?

Pyramid in the Sky was about a group of alien slaves coming to Earth and seeking sanctuary if I remember right. It had a villian group based on movie making (director, best boy, stuntman, gaffer, etc.) and had a villian leader of a camp for meta wannabees. A totally convoluted adventure and as far as I was concerned, a waste of money.

 

Dystopia took the Geodistics from Enemies (Champions first edition) and updated to semi fourth edition. Worth the money due to the backstory used to update the characters.

 

Hope this helps.

It does a lot. Thanks

Re: C25 Island of Dr. Destroyer: Official?

I would be less likely to have a bad taste in my mouth if it were released as part of another Adventure compilation ala the Battlegrounds series. But if it's ever released buy itself, I'm not going to be very happy.

 

TB

Yeah, I would have to agree with that.

Re: C25 Island of Dr. Destroyer: Official?

Previous experience seems to have shown that Adventures just don't sell. Not in the numbers to make it worth it to put the kind of effort that Steve put in to get the IoDD up to snuff to be published in a book.

 

Also, by releasing it seperately now they would severely violate the trust of many of us who bought C25 to begin with. I already had Champions and Champions Universe in softback, the biggest reason I payed $100 for the book was to get the adventure, the second was to get the "Story of Champions" introduction, and third was to help the company in general.

 

If you want the adventure, buy the book. As far as I know, there ought to be some extra copies available that are most likely going to be in the Online Store shortly.

 

Thems the breaks.

 

TB

Yeah, I would be more than a little upset if that was to happen, especially if it was like next month. A couple of years down the road I would be fine with but the process to get the book was not an easy one. I usually do not have $100 bucks lying around, so I had to do without and my life became just a little more difficult because of the purchase. I knew that going in but if they just broke up the book and sold it in pieces I would be very upset about that.

I was browsing some of the back stock and ran across two titles that I have never heard of, 'Pyramid in the sky' and 'Dystopia'. Dystopia gives you some information over what to expect out of it but I get nothing from Pyramid in the Sky. Can anyone fill in the blanks for me? Are these good? I expect to do a little adjusting to make these work in my campaign but I just want to know if the product is worth the time first.

Re: C25 Island of Dr. Destroyer: Official?

One of the major reasons I talked myself into buying this book was to get that adventure. I love the book but The Island is what makes it such a treat for me. I never had the original and in my campaign world it is still 2001 and Dr. Destroyer has not yet made his return. I found that with very little work 'The Return of Dr. Destroyer' from The Champions Universe connects beautifully with 'The Island of Dr. Destroyer'. I plan on running it as one adventure.

Re: How to get ideas across (GM's)

Wow. I forgot that I wrote this post. Time flies. I have had more conversations with my player and I have come to realize that she does not like to develop characters. She likes to come up with a character that should have a lot of roleplay potential but she does not want to do that. Unneccesary conversations was the term she used. She is pretty much like that in real life. I think the idea of powers and what not hold very little interest for her,but so does roleplaying. I and some of my players think that she might be better off playing a video game.

Re: Unofficial Handbook to the Champions Universe

I am here with you on that. Ok off to work for me.

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

maybe incorporate some of the characters from Teen Champions after a few years more experience and show how the presence of a "Under-21 team" interacts with the established heroes.

 

Give a few tantalizing hints of what the Big bads like Ishta;'na Vu (?) have been up to.

 

Are there non-superheoric aliens and extradimensionals living on Earth? If so, does the public know about them and how are they percieved?

 

Seconded

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

Oh yeah, I had some fond memories of the Zodiac, more as a player than a GM. As a GM I tried to concentrate on their strengths and have a complete grasp of their weaknesses because, I got to tell you, that team could get hammered pretty easily if you did not know what you were doing.

But the most fun I had was when the whole team became more or less my solo heroes archenemy. I made a solo hero that was pretty much based around a wolverine type of power build but without the metal skeleton. He was a cop in a special branch of the Chicago Police force. His partner was the former hero known as Crusader. He was also a coward.

He did not want to fight anyone unless, and this was the important bit, he was backed inot a corner then all hell would break loose. On a call he and his partner went to apprehend some criminals that turned out to be the Conquerors. Okay that was bad. Then in the middle of it The Zodiac showed up. They had a disagreement with Binder over something. Seeing how bad this situation was going to be and still recovering from the fight I asked them all to sit down and maybe we could talk about it for a while (hoping against hope that backup would arrive.) We sat down talked a little had some breadsticks and then Bam! Superbrawl! Zodiac on one side, Conquerors on the other and me in the middle. Long story short when the dust cleared and the camera crews arrived guess who was the only one still standing? Yep. Instant fame as the lone hero that defeated two villian teams. Not something a guy who would rather stay home and eat pizza really wanted. Things for him went downhill from there. God I loved that character.

We now return you to your regular broadcast.

Re: Unofficial Handbook to the Champions Universe

I don't think in the long run it would really make too terribly much difference to players other than the contributors. Just rattling thoughts here, but would not simply annotating each character as 'hero' or 'villain' (or let the backstory tell it) be enough?

 

Individual play groups who use the characters will most likely change little things here and there anyway; I don't think I've ever objected to another GM using a retired or discarded hero from my files as a villain in his own.....

That's true but I think what I would like to get out of this is an understanding of how others heroes influence their campaign world. Some I have no doubt I will love and others I am certain I will not. Our heroes and villians usually have a mjor impact on our campaign world and so we hold them dear to us. I would love to see if we could ever create a multiverse with the compatible teams and villians assigned to various worlds and a database that we could all contribute to as well as extract. This looks like a step in that direction and one that I would heavily support. We are fans and we love what we do. Even if I can not use it for my campaign, I would love to be able to share in that with everyone here.

Re: Unofficial Handbook to the Champions Universe

Not trying to knock Basil. But I would rather like to see teams and organizations as a whole. If the team works well together then I like to be able to introduce that dynamic into my game world but if they do not I find it is easier for me to break that team up and simply use the components that I liked and then discard the rest.

Re: CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE II - What Do You Want To See?

The Protectors was one of my favorites, although, I never ran the adventure, I used the characters. I would love to see an update of these guys.

The other group I would not mind seeing again would have to be the Zodiac. Some of the pieces never quite fit on that team IMO but I loved how they could operate. Hmm Intelligent Space Ship that the leader found which could teleport you anywhere in the world and back again. Now where have I read that one. That team if handled properly (and with a few character rewrites)could easily be America's Eurostar.

Re: What does a hero team need?

What they need? Just people.

It really breaks down to the scope of the game. If the characters are a laid back street level team, a lot of fun could be had playing up the lack of resources. Many a game I played where the heroes met at a Greasy Spoon diner and had to take a taxi to the fight.

If the team is serious about being a team and want to be more professional, then a secure meeting place is a must, as well as a reliable means of communication. I am not talking about cell phones either but something that is secure and not likely to fail on you when you move from your bedroom to your living room.

A group transport can be good as well.

Contacts are a must at this level. The heroes are going to want to cut through red tape and you need to have people that you can call that will drop everything to make sure that you can do the job.

Re: Unofficial Handbook to the Champions Universe

It does sound pretty good. Just as long as it does not step on any legal toes, I would love to see a project like that.

Re: Black enchantress

I did not write this one up but I converted Talisman to The Black Enchantress in my game. I upped her power level and now my players worry about her when her name is dropped.

Re: Superhero Comics & D&D Alignments

I do not know. I see Batman as more of a neutral good character.

Re: Quote of the Week from my gaming group...

My Champions players are in the middle of a small Demonhame. Arsenal has been whining all night about how everyone is going to get killed. A battle starts and three of my players get sidelined quick. One for a good while, the other two only for a second.

Arsenal: We need to get out of here! We need to retreat!

Pyre: Retreat to where? This is an end of the world as we know it scenerio here. When it comes down to that sort of thing I only know how to do one thing. I stand and I fight.

Pyre went on to use tactics and manuevers in the fight and they turned the tide.

Re: How would you build a time/space Superphone?

I did something similiar but it was not a phone for placing calls thorugh time. I just wanted to place calls from any dimension. Even as a player I would never go for the ability to place calls throughout Space AND time. Too much potential for abuse. As for your question I think the other people here have put forth better ideas than I could, but I was taking notes.