slaughterj

Re: Do characteristics break the Hero way of doing things?

Despite the examples given, I will suggest that having no resistant defenses is far more common in the comics than in the game. And buying a ton of Stun and BIOD doesn't exactly match those characters either, does it?

 

Moving on the same train of throught, how often do you see a Champs super who has ordinary human DEX, Speed, CON, etc. Yet the comics are full of characters who have super powers without enhanced characteristics (or at least significantly enhanced characteristics).

 

It's not that Hero couldn't support this. If, when 1st Ed premiered, we had sample characters with DEX'es lower than we are used to, we might have a very different game today. Let's say the exceptionally slow Brick had a 5 DEX, rather than 18, and a 2 Speed, rather than 4. A typical Super might have had 14 DEX and 3 Speed, rather than 23 and 4. A Martial Artist might have had a "superhuman" DEX and Speed of 23 and 5, rather than the 35 and 7 we've now become accustomed to (and then it was more like 29 and 6). This, and similar "normal" CON levels (to pick the most constant stats at or above human maxima) would have left more points for other abilities and powers, so we might be playing 150 + 100 point characters today, with lower CON, lower DEX and SPD, etc..

 

Lower DC's and lower defenses could have been another route - imagine if an 8d6 Energy Blast were typical, 10d6 the high end, and 12d6 "overwhelming". Instead of DC's 10 - 12, we might have 6 to 9. Defenses could drop by 10 across the board and average damage would be unchanged. DC['s and defenses in tose early characters were actually a bit lower than what we see as "typical" now, but "inflation" started pretty early on.

 

That's not the road taken by even first edition, of course, and it's way too late to go back now. But it's interesting to consider how the game might have evolved differently. If Supers had clustered at lower levels, we might have seen more of a push to design rules that make every point in a stat count for something.

As long as the stats are so cheap in a system, which in effect promotes excessive purchase of them and therefore stat inflation, they will be purchased up beyond expected levels. Further, because you have to have some reasonable chance of success, one can't have a DEX of 5 in a supers world where everyone has a DEX of 18, because you will never hit, and that doesn't work in a gaming environment.

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

I certainly wasn't. I just think the Five Powers Model is the perfect organizing model for the Hero system.

 

Each power falls under one of the Five Meta-Powers. The basic 1 per 5 is the model for attacks, the basic 1 per 1 is the basic model for defense, etc. Then you'd still have all the other separate powers as already listed in Hero... just categorized differently, and their structure bought with the based model in mind.

 

If, in the example of Regen, you actually need to create a new, playability, static effect that isn't really a lim or adv under Transform... just state that. It is still based on Transform... but deviates in the following ways for playability and flavor... This would provide a model for consistency, and a model that can be consciously deviated from with an explanation.

 

This gets away from Zornwil's explanation of how Hero was "hacked" together. (A great explanation by the way...) It still allows for those exceptions, it just makes sure they are deliberate and clear... not just stumbled upon.

 

My take anyway... YMMV.

I'm with you on this. I think that looking to Mutants & Masterminds would be useful as well - obviously they drew from Hero, so why not return the favor

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

Naw. Summon is Transform Nothing Into Something.

Naw. Summon is Move Others.

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

While I wouldn't reduce the game to this, I do think it is a solid structural model. If you everyone can have things categorized in this simple way... give the rules for modifying within that category... then give a bunch of examples of how this meta-power actually looks in game play (Defense is meta-power... actual game play power is Force Field, Armor, whatever...)

 

That is a solid, organized, effective way to make the fundamentals of the game clear, while also providing "finished product" (Armor statted out, Force Field statted out) that are plug & play.

 

The Five Powers model has been around forever. It shouldn't usurp the Hero system, but why not use it to better balance and organize the Hero system?

Yes, this discussion has been around for a long time, but I think it may be worth serious consideration.

One large concern I have with the way the Hero system works (that maybe the 5 Powers thing would help with) is the problems that occasionally arise with the interaction between AP (Active Points), RC, END, Multipowers, etc. For example, I could buy Flash 3D6 (30 AP), No Range (-1/2) (20 RC) which costs me 3 END to use, compared to 2 END for a base 20 point power (also, you get the shaft when trying to wedge it into a Multipower). But I have the flexibility to buy Killing Attack either Ranged or Hand, don't have to apply a limitation, thus not having to "overpay" END for the power. Another example (to show the math, not the logic of the particular example within the system) would be to buy Force Field with Reduced END (+1/2) and Non-Resistant (-1/2) to simulate Blue Skin Man's ability to create layers of blue defensive skin, which would cost the same as PD/ED, but due to the advantage/limitation setup, would not be as good as just buying PD/ED if it was being put in a Multipower. There are a myriad of examples, including better ones, so please don't bother addressing the specific examples, but rather the concept in general. And yes, I know if you switch END to being RC based, it also creates a problem, because over things like spells that get over-saddled with limitations and have a very low RC. I didn't say I had a solution

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

I agree about the defenses.

 

Force Field = Armor with Costs End: -1/2

Extra Pd or Ed = Armor with Non-Resistant: -1/2

I'd prefer something that started at a more basic level, e.g.:

1pt of PD or ED (not sure if I like those distinctions anymore either, but that's another topic) for 1pt - this way it is no different than buying PD/ED, and thus not another level of complexity

- Uses no END

- Provides no damage resistance (which may be impacted by how killing attack, energy blast, hand attack, etc. would work once combined into a "Damage" power)

- From there, apply lims for Costs END (-1/2) (i.e., non-resistant Force Field), or advantages (i.e., with the Costs END, add Resistant (+1/2), to get Force Field; or just add Resistant (+1/2) to get Armor)

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

I don't like how Transforms (e.g. man into frog) that you could buy as one power in 4th now have to be three (Transform man's mind into frog's mind' date=' Transform man's spirit into frog's spirit, Transform man's body into frog's body). I guess in some cases you could get by with less, but we usually just make people pay for one.[/quote']

 

I haven't looked at that in a long while, but certainly does seem excessive, compared to simply buying a killing attack.

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

What do you think should be dropped?

I think a lot of powers, e.g., killing attack & energy blast, armor, force field, & damage resistance, etc. should be combined and make into a much leaner system. Then examples can be provided for making a gun, brass knuckles, fire blast, carapace, etc.

Similarly, to the extent that the system feels the need to rely on Transform for so much, it should have many examples on how to do things, like Create Object, etc., that it is used for as a fall-back. These examples should be in the main book.

Basically it should be clearer how to make characters like Green Lantern and Molecule Man.

Re: Metric HERO- simplifying measurement in the HERO system

That was my first idea' date=' and I'll be doing that as much as possible, but looking through the rules has made me realise that it's not all quite as simple as this. [/quote']

 

Perhaps you can cite some examples?

Re: Metric HERO- simplifying measurement in the HERO system

Why not just change all references to 1" in the rule book to 2 meters, and leave everything else alone?

Re: Haven't been here in a while...

Thanks for the info, you are a veritable treasure trove of information

Re: Haven't been here in a while...

We installed new boards in February of 03.

Odd, as I was here for over a year after that time, but don't remember the new style. Doesn't much matter though, does it

Re: Haven't been here in a while...

Oh, and was there some sort of forum reset? I notice that the oldest anyone is listed as registered (including myself) is 02/03...

Re: Haven't been here in a while...

I quickly noticed the 5ER release, interesting, how much is it different from 5E? Any good thread on this?

How does 5ER and Sidekick line up, is Sidekick fully compliant?

According to my "last visited," I haven't been here since 3/23/04, soooo....what have I missed? Any particularly good releases since then? Anything good coming up?

BTW, I've been messing with Mutants & Masterminds and Conan while gone. Yes, they are "d20", but I think they are the cream of the crop in that area, plus Conan is great material!

Originally posted by Eosin

There is a write up that is pretty good for Conan already.

 

Conan Thread

Thanks, yep, that's a good write-up for Conan, but I'm looking for a good Conan spell system write-up

Originally posted by beastialwarlust

Yes I will have it on your desk...unless aliens come own and steal the file off my computer. I've had that happen before:D

 

Like I said it looks easy i haven't tried it yet

Hmmm, I'm here at my desk and no files yet...

Originally posted by beastialwarlust

Yeah it is pretty good for being d20:p but I still would rahter use HERO. Since I have FH the Conan magic system didn't seem like it would be too hard to convert.

FH is my baseline preference for fantasy gaming, and has been since the late 80s, but I find it hard to spend the time making spell systems. Since Conan will be so easy for you, I expect to see your first draft on my desk in the morning

The new Conan RPG is great! Lots of good material. Rather than go through the arduous process of creating a spell system under Hero, I think I'm going to run it as is - at least it's a better version of d20.

Originally posted by Steve Long

Amazon US definitely doesn't have those books -- you have to get 'em from Amazon UK.

 

I don't have the ISBN handy, but if you run a search for "Fantasy Masterworks," you can probably pull 'em up. Run that search on Google, and you'll probably find a couple pages that list and show all the books in the series, and IIRC even link to Amazon.UK for you.

These books are available on ebay still shrinkwrapped for very reasonable rates - they are up there all the time.

Good stuff Storn!

I've been anxiously anticipating this rpg material, long had my Conan pre-ordered on frpgames, looking forward to the other books too.

The #0 Conan was cool, looking forward to more of that as well.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Slip/Stumble (reduced DCV until next phase)

 

Overreach (target gets OCV bonus against you until next phase)

 

Trip (prone to next phase)

 

Shoot self in foot (here's where Personal Immunity pays off!)

 

Weapon damaged (firearm jams; bowstring breaks; weapon has reduced OCV and/or damage until repaired)

 

Pull a muscle (reduced OCV and/or STR for some period)

 

Hit obstacle/ground HTH - you take damage

 

Damage to environment (set building on fire; damage/break treasure like jewelry, glasswork, potion bottles)

Good stuff, keep 'em coming!

What are some good, common fumble results to use?

Offhand, I can think of:

1. hitting a friend (if adjacent/possible)

2. dropping a weapon

3. breaking a weapon

4. miscasting a spell

Others?

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme

Suggestion:

 

For their OCV, use how much they missed by. (The worse they are, the more likely they are to get a decent swing in at their ally...)

Ah, very nice! Then I can use the character's OCV levels to lower that, representing a highly skilled character being less likely to hit their friend as well.

Interesting stuff.

I've seen people post before about benefits for rolling a 3 (e.g., max damage, etc.), or for rolling under 1/2 what you needed to roll. I agree with not giving bonuses for rolling a 3 if only a 3 would have succeeded! I basically let a 3 be an auto-hit (if it were possible to hit), no particular bonuses associated with it.

As for 18s, I tend to "wing it" with effects, e.g., possibly swing to hit your neighbor, possibly break your weapon, possibly drop your weapon (happened to one character in the sewers, dropped into the deep rank depths, had no choice but to dive after it ). I've always had an issue with "hitting your neighbor", specifically what mechanic to use. It didn't make sense to use the character's OCV, because just because he hits his opponents better doesn't mean he should hit others better on accident. I like some of the ideas I've seen here, and think I'll go with the following: 0 OCV attack against neighbor's DCV/2 (halved based on being "surprised") - I like using the neighbor's DCV rather than one person's suggested 11-, because the target should have some bearing on it. I'm not sure about whether to incorporate the fumbler's OCV levels like the person with the 11- suggested, might do that as well.

I remember the discussion, though I think I came out on the side opposite of Steve Long Regardless, Tesuji was involved with the discussion as well, so some searching involving usernames may help.