robbneu

Re: Liefeld's Titans

Re: Liefeld's Titans Okay, I finally picked up my small comics collection and eagerly read the new Teen Titans comic... since it's become one of my favorite series, and... ugh. I don't mind Liefeld as much as some of the other posters here, but I have to echo Zeropoint's statement about how none of the pages in the issue seemed related to anything else in the comic. On more than one occasion, I actually turned back to check that I didn't accidentally miss a page or two. Not sure who is to blame here, Liefeld or Simone, but the entire issue was choppy to the point of being almost incomprehesible. Also, aside from Liefeld's stylistic touches (huge thighs, tiny mouths and eyes, enormous amounts of hair), I felt some of the characters were protrayed very poorly. Tim Drake, at least when I've seen him, has been fairly small and even thin, nothing like the muscle-bound hulk he looks like in TT27. Liefeld really made an effort to make Raven look like her old self, especially in her "secret ID," but Cyborg was a complete miss. Not only did he look like he was dressed as Cable for Halloween, but his dialog was all off: "Kid, no one wants to hurt you. But you threaten us again and we'll find a new place to put those grenades of yours." That doesn't sound like the Cyborg I know. And: "That skinny girl's in love with gutterballs, I swear. It hurts to look..." Huh? I can't see Cyborg refering to any of his teammates as "that skinny girl," least of all someone he has fought alongside for years. Maybe I'm just getting too old for this "kinetic" storytelling, but I was disappointed in Teen Titans #27 for a lot of reasons, Liefield's artwork only being a part of it. Robb

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill? That does sound like an interesting story. I've read the first 20 issues or so of the Authority, but missed the backstory. I'm a little sorry that I did. It sounds pretty involved. Robb

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill? You're right. In the rush to defend the "cowardly" heroes who refuse to take a life, I left out "generally" in my declarations of what a hero does and doesn't do. For example, the final showdown between Batman and the Joker in "The Dark Knight Returns" was very well done. It wasn't about angst and remorse, but the Batman's decision to finally end the Joker's crimes felt very satisfying and fit with the characters involved. Is that kind of action appropriate for Superman? Maybe. Spiderman? I don't know. Probably not. As I said, it's an interesting issue and I've enjoyed reading the points posted that counter my own feelings. I don't think there is a genre is better suited for the examination of moral issues than superheroes. Oh, and don't discount your abilities and influence in real life, Neil. When "Management Trainer from Michigan Hero" comes out, you'll see the wide scope of actions you have available to you. Robb

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill? So, now we're killing the Joker while he's trying to escape? See, the discussion keeps shifting, ever so slightly, into completely different scenarios and it changes the heart of the debate. The scenario that you're presenting is that the Joker is breaking out of Arkham and while he's on his way out the door, someone (Batman?) comes by and snaps his neck? The threat of lethal violence has kept a number of dangerous people in prison, so maybe that's an okay circumstance. I'm still hestitant to agree with it, though, because the way it's being presented is that "but he's escaping!" is being used as an excuse to do something that the person wants to do anyway. What was being hinted at earlier in the thread was that Batman or Superman or whomever was morally bound to kill the Joker, when given the chance, to prevent any future deaths from happening. I don't buy that, because what you're doing is punishing someone for crimes that he may potentially commit in the future. The bottom line is that we're not going to agree. Part of it is because of these constantly shifting dynamics and another part of it is because even though I keep pointing out that we're talking about a different sort of moral reality, you keep pulling in real world issues. Robb

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill? You're right... not all superheroes exist in Superman's more clear-cut moralistic world. I'm likely simplifying things a little too much, just to make my point a little stronger. Maybe the question really should be, "How do you feel about classic superheroes that kill?" I'm arguing that a classic, true-blue superhero shouldn't kill... ever. The heroes in books like The Authority aren't classic heroes and they're not in the same universe as the so-called classic heroes like Superman, Spiderman, and the Avengers. Maybe this is yet another case of "when in Rome..." In the Authority world, killing is often valid and necessary... I just don't see it as particularly heroic, even if it is a necessary evil for their times.

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill? If that isn't a case of being the judge, jury and executioner, I don't know what is. Can you be certain that the Joker will kill again and again? Sure, historically, that's what he does... he's a psychopath and delights in murdering innocent people, but does that mean he will kill again? As crazy as he is, maybe one day he'll decide that watercolors, rather than murder, is the true expression of a sociopathic soul. Then again, maybe not. How can you be certain enough to murder him? Is a hunch reason enough to justify killing another person? The problem with a debate like this is that we all edit the circumstances a bit to fit our views. It starts as an Uber-Joker who will destroy the universe if he isn't stopped to just your garden-variety villain who might kill a family down the street to heroic figures in histories and wars that didn't have superheroes. It's not really an honest debate. And, even if we do manage to find a level playing field and restrictive circumstances, we're still going to go with what he feel is ethically right, which isn't something that you can really debate with facts. Robb

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill? Beating up on Superman for having a higher set of ethics has become a popular sport, especially since the protrayal of him in "The Dark Knight Returns," and it's unfortunate. No one ever goes after Spiderman and the two characters basically have the same moral outlook. The difference is their power level and I just don't understand why Superman should have any greater responsibility to sacrifice his moral beliefs just because he's on a different scale than Spiderman. To me, he has an even stronger responsibility to adhere to his ethics. In Superman's case, it's not just "with great power comes great responsibility," but "with greater power comes greater responsibility." Robb

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill? I tend to like to play my heroes as true heroes that don't believe in killing their foes. Taking in a foe, alive, takes a little more skill... a little more effort... and speaks to a higher code of ethics (belief in a fair system, no man can set himself up as the law, etc.). I've also gotten an enjoyable amount of mileage from playing the "quaint" or "naive" hero in a less principled team. A stand against killing, or a defiance to "stooping to their level," just seems more heroic to me. It's an intriguing puzzle, though. Walking the line definitely would have its dramatic pay-offs. Robb