Ki-rin

Re: Normal Human

That's a very 'interesting' way to sidestep the question.

 

I imagine that nearly 90% of the Champion playing board members here would use OIHID to build a powered armor character (just like Defender, who is essentially an Iron Man clone just like the Champions are a fuzzy homage to the Avengers).

 

There are other ways to do it of course like OIF & Multiform but I don't recall anyone suggesting to build one without any of them.

I was not trying to sidestep anything.

I've seen players make all sorts of mini-max attempts at getting a desired result as cheaply as possible and with as little downside as possible.

The example of a suit of PA being an SFX unless it has access/usability Limitations that actually affect game play is a standard one that's been around for as long as Champions has.

To get the OIHID bonus, there has to some problem associated with getting into or staying in your Hero ID that actually affects game play.

For example Donald Blake can not change into Thor unless he has his walking stick +and+ he can get outside +and+ be unobserved. In addition, Thor reverts to Don Blake if he is separated from Mjolnir for 61 secs.

This is a valid OIHID concept.

OTOH, a particular version of Tony Stark almost never has any problems changing into Iron Man. He could be sun bathing in Capri with nothing but a bathing suit and yet he "somehow" has easy access to his armor and can become Iron Man at will when needed.

Tony Stark's armor is a SFX in this interpretation.

This version of Iron Man does -not- get the OIHID bonus.

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

Ki-rin' date=' I just have to say I love the fact that you set up several situations where it would be a good idea to HM a PRE attack [i']because[/i] it couldn't be interfered with, then quote the rule that says to Haymaker a PRE attack you have to be able to "suffer the drawbacks" and it even includes the example of being in combat.

All that means is that I did not have or remember the RAW when I gave my examples

...and therefore those examples were fatally flawed.

Not a problem. I've been wrong before. I'll be wrong again.

Re: Normal Human

The frequency argument can be used equally well vs. a character like Iron-Man (or Champions own Defender for that matter), the seemingly 'Poster Boy' for NCM. How often did the person wearing the Iron-Man suit not have access to its abilities in the classic* Avengers stories?

 

*Pre-Civil War.

Now I'll try and get to this.

A lot depends on exactly how the points were spent to buy the PA.

Whether the PA is a SFX, a OIF, etc clearly matters.

Traditionally Tony Stark almost never has a problem getting to and into his PA

In short, the armor is mostly a SFX rather than a Limitation.

Now we could easily design things so that Tony can't as easily conceal, transport, or put on his PA.

=Then= we could have a Limitation based on the frequency with which Tony can't get into his armor even if he wants to.

Nastier is to make it so that Iron Man sometimes has to get =out= of his PA when he doesn't want to (The _Iron Man Armored Adventures_ cartoon simulates this by teen-age Tony needing to get out of the armor reasonably often while using it because it runs out of power.)

Re: Normal Human

Not. Any. More.

 

It =was= in the description of the mechanic in 4e RAW.

 

It =is no longer= in the description of the mechanic starting with 5e; by =5e= (and later) RAW, that SFX is no longer in the description of or the default for that mechanic. I have posted the relevant page references and text upthread and will not spam the board by reposting.

 

So if you are running 4e and/or are using 4e RAW as your reference point, fine. But if so, there is no longer any common ground for discussing this topic, because the rest of us (or a high supermajority thereof) are using 5e and later (5eR, 6e), and the RAW therein are as indicated =multiple times= in this thread, including above in this post.

As long as it is called Normal Characteristic Maximum, the implication is there is in the description since titles are part of what is being described.

I do not see a way around that.

Re: Normal Human

So' date=' you are defending your additional house-rule sfx derived connotations associated with NCM by quoting the rulebook whose very sections quoted [u']only[/u] deal with characteristics and nothing else.

 

Not a very convincing argument.

Maybe not to you. To me it is axiomatic that every effect in HERO has a SFX associated with it; and that properly simulating an effect includes properly simulating its associated SFX and the implications of the SFX.

The SFX of NCM is that you are genetically a "normal" in your campaign world.

You get points for NCM because you are DisAd when competing in certain ways with your world's "super humanity" (whatever "humanity" means for that game world.)

Properly playing and GMing a character with NCM means properly taking that SFX into account.

so noted that you ignored my earlier Iron-Man comparison as well.

(heck, I'm still waiting for a concrete numbers answer to the Superman/choke-hold question in the other thread, I even posted a link to my version of the character to apply the number too).

You may have noticed I'm getting a bit inundated?

I -do- have a "real life" you know.

Yours are not the only posts I have not responded to every single one of.

I -am- trying to chew through all this is some sort of reasonable priority order.

...and there are other reasons I am on these boards.

Re: Normal Human

google is your friend.

plonk

A horrible overreaction to a discussion.

Re: Normal Human

Where?

 

Can you cite a page reference please?

 

I've just checked 5ER and there is no mention of the word "Human" anywhere under NCM that I can find.

And you won't. "Human" is not the operative term. "Human" is meaningless when we could be playing on any conceivable game world.

"normal" is the operative term. In a world based on humans, a normal character => a member of homo sapiens sapiens. Eg, normal human.

On a game world where the base character race is intelligent dogs, "normal" => normal intelligent dog. Whatever that means for that game world.

(Diito Kzinti or any other imagined character race.)

The NCM DisAd is for playing a character that is heroic for that game world when running a superheroic campaign in that game world.

See post #214 by Peregrine in this thread for reference.

Re: Normal Human

sure it isn't. I don't hate NCM at all' date=' I've argued for it for a while. [/quote']

Then I apologize for the misconception.

 

You've ceased to amuse me, plonk.

Wasn't trying to amuse you. Not real happy with my interaction with you at the moment either.

 

and what is a "plonk"?

Re: Normal Human

It is - and Normal Human is but one choice. Not the default or only choice.

 

You keep forcing Normal Human onto it. You don't have to choose that SFX for NCM.

It's in the bloodly description of the mechanic.

That's as "default" as it gets.

If =YOUR= House Rules are otherwise, fine for you.

But NCM means the SFX of a normal human in a superhero campign is canon RAW and has been for 20+ years.

If having it in print in front of you is not convincing enough, then we've got nothing to talk about on this topic.

You hate the NCM mechanic. Fine. But your hate has made you irrational about it.

Barring a change in either of our PoV on this topic, you and I have nothing left to talk about regarding it.

Re: Normal Human

In your game.

 

but that's not in the rules. Doesn't say it anywhere in the book.

 

Stopping forcing your SFX onto the rest of us.

 

NCM is a Mechanic. You must attach SFX for it to be meaningful. But it is does not imply or come with SFX by default.

EVERY mechanic or group of mechanics that produces an effect comes with a SFX by default.

That's always been one of the meta-rules of HERO.

I'm not forcing any SFX. The SFX is chosen when the effect is chosen.

It is always supposed to be.

Re: Normal Human

NCM implies nothing of the sort.

 

Once More - NCM only states you pay double for Characteristics after a certain point (default 20 for Primaries).

 

There is no attached SFX of "normal person" in any way. Stop adding one.

Paying 2x for stats over a certain limit is the game mechanic bonus...

...as a consequence of choosing the SFX that you will play a heroic character (AKA "a normal") in a superhero campaign.

That has been there from day one.

So has the principle of running HERO so that play is true to a player's chosen SFX.

QED. A player with NCM has the SFX that they are what we would recognize as "normal" on a genetic level in their game world.

...and play should reflect that.

Re: Normal Human

You didn't address him taking NCM I notice.

 

In fact, your entire argument of NCM comes from a non-RAW point of view so you don't get to shove RAW at us now.

The last sentence is BS. It implies that if anyone ever uses -a- House Rule, they have no belief in the RAW nor any right to use the RAW as supporting evidence on matters not related to a house rule.

That's illogical.

I did not have to do deal with the NCM issue because unless a player can come up with a proper rationale, his stats are -stats- not powers.

Not only would NCM while trying to attain Kal-El's stats be cost prohibitive, it also would violate the basic character concept.

The only time NCM might be appropriate for Kal-El is when he is under a red sun.

Such respect for, and enforcement of, character concept is -also- one of the oldest principles of HERO.

Re: Normal Human

So how does NCM' date=' as per 5eR RAW and separate from your house rules, affect game play in a superheroic setting?[/quote']

NCM implies normal human of what we ITRW call ordinary flesh, blood, and bone.

 

That SFX has in play implications just as choosing your EB as Ice Blast does or choosing that you are super strong because you are super dense or ...

Re: Normal Human

You didn't ask how often a Red Sun would come up in Hugh's campaign.

 

It's RAW.

 

Then that game world is uncommon compared to Supes canon.

The GM and the player will need to agree on what significant percentage of the time Supes will be in danger of being under a red sun in order to fairly price the DisAd or Limitation.

"Infrequently" is going to mean ~3/8 of the time (8- on 3d6).

That's going to result in a (-1/4) Limitation if all being under a red sun does is make Supes "normal human".

...and ~ 3/8 of the time he -will- be in circumstances where he is a "normal human" despite his desire to have Kryptonian superpowers at that moment.

If he wants more points or a bigger bonus for the DisAd or Limitation, the player is going to have to increase the frequency of the problem (11- or the equivalent is -1/2, 14- or the equivalent is -3/4 or -1) or the severity of the consequences (since this is very much -not- canon, I'm not going to worry about it ATM).

THAT is RAW.

Not him getting points for something that almost never happens in game play even in his canonical campaigns.

Re: Normal Human

Hugh's rational does hold up to RAW.

No it does not and it never has.

You don't get points for DisAds or Limitations that do not affect game play.

If I as a GM can't take advantage of it significantly enough for it to matter to the campaign, then for all intents and purposes it does not exist.

This has been the bedrock principle for DisAds and Limitations for as long as they have existed.

If Supes red sun vulnerability is to be worth any points at all, it has to come up often enough in game play for it to be something that must be taken into account as a possibility.

If it can be ignored for all intents and puposes because we are playing under a non-red sun the vast majority of the time, then it does not matter enough to game play to be a DisAd or Limitation.

Re: Normal Human

Characteristics purchased as powers are powers' date=' and exempt from NCM, just like Defender's Power Armor stats. Superman's high characteristics do not function under a red sun, so they have a limitation. All characteristics with a limitation are powers, not characteristics, and are not subject to NCM. His characteristics under a red sun are within NCM, so he should get 20 free points for following the rules of NCM.[/quote']

*Bzz't!*

 

A Limitation that does not Limit the character during actual game play is not worth points.

 

As long as Supes spends the vast majority of his time -not- under a red sun, he is not in a campaign where the effects of a red sun matter.

 

A novice attempting to get this Limitation is showing that they do not understand HERO.

An experienced HERO user attempting to get this Limitation is Trying To Pull A Fast One. (AKA "munchkin" behavior.)

 

On the the vast majority of game worlds, Supes stats are not powers unless you can come up with some other rationale that will hold up to the RAW.

(if your campaign -is- going to spend a very large percentage of its time under a red sun, that clearly changes things.)

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

You have repeatedly stated that you will not allow NND's that can never do BOD' date=' and feel obligated to create a House Rule under which they will do BOD under some circumstances. By the rules NND's never risk killing the target (unless specifically bouight to do BOD). You find that rule so unrealistic you feel you must house rule it away, but you can accept far less realistic constructs.[/quote']

Nope.

 

And again I must quote myself...

 

(in my campaigns) NNDs don't do BODY unless

a= their SFX is such that the attack could have that consequence.

b= they do enough NND damage in one shot.

 

As someone said earlier, ITRW there are no NND attacks. It's an abstraction that makes sense under certain circumstances. Violate the premises of those circumstances, and it no longer makes sense.

 

Note also that if I'm honoring the logical implications of SFX to this degree, I'm doing it as much as I can in other ways as well.

 

Bottom line is that ITRW there is no such thing as STUN or BODY or CON. Nor ND, KD, and NND.

 

The game system, any game system, is a set of abstractions and mechanics to help us simulate an alternate reality for gaming purposes.

No rule system is complete accurate. No rule system is 100% logically consistent.

 

AND HAVING THE SIMULATION WORK WELL FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE PEOPLE USING IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN BLIND SLAVISH DEVOTION TO =ANY= RULE SYSTEM.

Re: Normal Human

The link is to a 250 point "write-up" of one of the most experienced characters in the genre. I can take it for granted that Batman has a lot more than 250 points. This 'Batman' has neither a Batmobile nor a Batcave.

As I posted earlier, both of my homage builds for Batman stay as close as possible to the canon source material.

And either of them costs 500+ points (600+ for the one intended for a 25 NCM world.)

Re: Normal Human

I have _HERO System fifth edition revised_ ISBN 1-58366-043-7

(You know the big black hard bound with green, gray, and white lettering; a copy of which was shot with a high velocity rifle by someone around here as part of "play testing"?)

You folks are going to kick yourselves when the "D'oh!" moment hits...

*listening to elevator music in the thread while I wait...*

Re: Normal Human

Page 58 of 5ER has the descriptions for three skills (Demolitions' date=' Disguise,and Electronics). It also has a picture of a guy with a "KICK ME!" sign on his back. It does not have any reference to Normal Characteristic Maxima.[/quote']

And I quote my previous post...

 

Champions HS5E p58 _Adjusting Normal Characteristc Maxima_

Champions 5E. Not HERO 5ER.

 

Upper LHS of page. Column on edge rather than in main body text. Page number is even in the alphabetical index at the end of the Champions 5E sourcebook.

 

The only reference to NCM in 5ER is on p19-20 tacked inappropriately under Age.

(Inappropriate because actually -reading- the section makes it clear that Age and NCM are independent DisAds. One can take both Age and NCM simultaneously. NCM is not a sub-catagory of Age RAW although NCM limits can be modified by Age.)

 

EDIT: Ghost_Angel quoted below

NCM is addressed in 5ER on p39 & p329-330.

Re: Haymaker a PRE attack?

The RAW word on Haymakering a PRE attack.

p389 5ER

"Haymaker applies to any attack, not just punchs. This includes Mental Powers and other attacks that don't involve physical force.

... He could even Haymaker an appropriate Presence Attack in a situation where he suffers the drawbacks from Haymakering (such as combat)."

Re: Normal Human

NCM is a Physical Limitation.

From p157 Champions 5E

"The chief virtue of Physical Limitations in a _Champions_ campaign is that you can place a character with this Disadvantage in situations where he has to cope with his disability- possibly for an increase in the drama of episode, possibly to the detriment of his self-image. With the right player, it can make some fascinating roleplaying and great stories."

That's how I GM NCM.

When Batman is dealing with a super powered adversary, he has to approach the problem in a different way than his fellow non NCM superheros do.

Ditto rescuing folks from disasters, dealing with collapsing buildings and avalanches, etc etc.

Bats and Cap are -human-.

Superbly trained, very tough, and utterly fearless humans, but still normal flesh and blood.

Jean Gray isn't (even w/o The Phoenix complications). The Flash isn't. Demi-gods like Supes and WW certainly are not.

...and if you don't want the fact that your character is human to affect game play, you don't have to take the physical disad.

(allowing for JLA Batman and Avengers Captain America).

Re: Normal Human

Someone asked for a 5ER reference to a GM changing NCM for game balance purposes.

Champions HS5E p58 _Adjusting Normal Characteristc Maxima_

I am so pumped to be able to finally provide the references people ask for!

*bounce a bounce a bounce*

Re: Normal Human

YES!!!

I just found out that I did NOT lose my entire collection of the more recent HERO stuff.

To give you an idea of the magnitude of the disaster that just reversed itself, I just recovered

HERO 5ER rule book

Most of the Ultimate series

DEMON servants of darkness

VIPER coil of the serpent

5ed DC

5ed Champions

5ed Ninja Hero

Conquers, Killers, and Crooks.

The Mystic World

5ed FH grimore

The Turakian Age

Arcane Adversaries

Galactic Champions

Vibora Bay

Hudson City the urban abyss

Millenium City

Gadgets and Gear

Something like a $grand worth of books.

I am PSYCHED!

Re: Normal Human

Thanks Peregrine. Nice overlook of the historical trend.

I had 5ER. Then there was a fire...

I'll be buying 6E as soon as I can.