Ki-rin

Re: Normal Human

Sound like you have also moved the top of the 'competent' category 1.25x higher. However' date=' setting the Maxima at the top of the 'competent' category will penalize characters such as Batman, who is as agile as an Elite Martial Artist, about as tough as Rasputin, and about as smart as Sherlock Holmes, to use Benchmarks from page 41 of 5ER.[/quote']

Elite MA => DEX at NCM

Tough as Rasputin => CON and BODY at NCM

smart as Sherlock Holmes => real close to the NCM cap but not at it. Say 18 in a 20 NCM world and 23 in a 25 NCM world.

(Remember even Sherlock said that both his brother Mycroft and his arch-enemy Moriarty were smarter than he was.)

Also need very high Intuition and Deduction skills to simulate Bats mental talents.

 

Don't see how any of this penalizes Batman.

 

Having NCM fit the game world may have been canon in 4E, but I see no such rule in 5ER. Do you have a page reference?

Nope. I do not have 5ER.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

Neither do people who can fly' date=' fire bursts of energy from their hands, bounce bullets off their chests, turn invisible or desolid, or any of the myriad of abilities we purchase in game. I assume you accept these in your games.[/quote']

Of course. But logical consistency matters for those too.

 

If you can fire bursts of energy from your hands, that has SFX implications that depend on what kind of energy it is, how you actually emit it, what fuels/powers said emission, and what the reasonable interpretation of that energy's affect on the environment is.

 

If you can bounce bullets of your chest, how that effect was obtained matters since there are multiple ways to achieve that effect.

 

Ditto turning invisible (Are you actually Invisible? To what senses? Or do you put a "Somebody Elses's Problem" AKA "ignore me" field?)

 

etc. SFX -matter-.

 

But an attack which can reliably KO without killing is too unrealistic for you...

WTF did I -ever- say that? Never.

Re: Normal Human

Every write-up of Batman I have seen – and I've seen a number of them while websurfing' date=' so this is not specific to my gaming group – would have lost points from NCM.[/quote']

Pointers please.

 

I've got 2 standard homage builds for Bruce Wayne that follow published canon as closely as I could.

One for NCM of 20 worlds and one for NCM of 25 worlds.

 

In either he is expensive (500+ character points). In either, he is down right scary if played right.

Re: Normal Human

If one is willing to house-rule the Maxima upwards to fit the character' date=' one can give Superman NCM. After all, NCM has not effect on what Powers you can have (5ER pages 329-330).[/quote']

We are not talking about Powers. We are talking about stats.

 

Unless most PCs in your game world tend to have better stats than Kal El, Supes does not have the right to the NCM DisAd.

 

Bats and Cap get NCM because they are ordinary flash and bone who regularly face opponents with stats and physical characteristics impossible for the human body as we know it IRL to encompass.

 

I don't house rule NCM to fit characters. I house rule NCM to fit game worlds.

 

In a world where agents can and do sometimes have primary stats as high as 25 w/o being supers, NCM being based on a primary stat limit of 25 makes sense. (...and having NCM fit the game world has been canon since at least 4ed.)

 

Making NCM 1.25x higher allowed me to have more variability in what "normals", including agents, can do. That made it easier for me to keep agents at ~ -3 To Hit supers for game balance purposes.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

Many of the worst GM Power abuses I've seen are caused by the GM imposing his view of how the player's character's abilities should work, rather than allowing the player to achieve his own vision of how his character's ability works.

100% Agree.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

SFX are important' date=' but they bend to the will of Mechanics. If you value SFX over the basic Mechanics that build the power, then I would fear playing in your game.[/quote']

IMHO the relationship is more complex.

 

Any game mechanic is a -tool- to help create a -simulation- of what would happen if something occurred IRL.

 

Those mechanics are basically analogies based on assumptions.

When those assumptions are violated, the analogies break down.

 

IRL, there is no attack that does only STUN or only BODY. IRL, STUN and BODY don't exist either.

 

The whole thing is a model that we're using to simulate a "what if?" scenario.

 

As long as the simulation works out such that people have fun and everyone is treated fairly, we are doing the right thing.

If the RAW don't achieve those goals in a specific circumstance, it is the job of the GM to fix things so those goals will be achieved.

 

In short, rules and game systems are GM and player aids. Not the other way around.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

This works both ways.

 

I still haven't seen you give a concrete answer (with a specific number/forumla) to either of my earlier super-strength + martial NND questions without it boiling down to: "I will make a case by case ruling each time this comes up". That sounds like a house rule that's too complicated to describe but it's not even that. It's just you making it up as you go along.

Eh? I thought I did give you a concrete answer.

Rest assured there was no "making it up as you go along."

That's usually not fair to players IMHO.

Re: Normal Human

I am neither of those things' date=' but I couldn't play in your game. Ruling things willie-nillie based on SFX at the cost of ignoring the mechanics? I couldn't handle that.[/quote']

Nothing willie-nillie about it.

 

If it isn't logically consistent for a given SFX to result in a given outcome, things are made to fit the SFX.

 

That's been HERO canon since the days of MacDonald & Peterson.

(I am in fact presently holding a June 1988 printing of _Champions_ and a copy of _Fantasy Hero_ that old because of this discussion.)

Re: Normal Human

In game terms' date=' if the Armor (Power Armor, or Knight Armor, it doesn't matter) stops [i']all[/i] the damage, then the person doesn't take damage, period. If you allow a character to take NCM on their power armor character, then drop a building on them, and declare that, despite their massive defenses (bought through the PA) the recieve broken bones and are half dead anyway, because they have NCM, your not going to have a happy player.

Absolutely. But then the player has paid CP, and used the appropriate SFX, to properly deal with the situation.

A guy in PA, even a "normal" guy, is not standing around in nothing but tights (or even chail mail in the case of Capt America) when the building falls on him.

Iron Man most definitely has been undamaged by having buildings fall him. Or having thrown tanks pile driver him into the earth dozens of feet. Or being hit point blank with tank rounds.

Does anyone really want to claim Tony Stark would survive any of these sort of events without his armor on?

Re: Normal Human

Yep' date=' we're done here. I can't tell you how happy I am that I'm nowhere near your gaming table.[/quote']

*shrug* you can't please all the people all the time.

 

I suspect from your posts that you would have far more fun than you presently think

 

The only folks who need to avoid my games like the plague are the Rules Rapists and extreme Power Gamers.

I would make their lives miserable, and they'd have no fun.

Re: Normal Human

Power Armor?

 

I've seen people try to use NCM for PA characters.

That's fine.

1= said character is not always in their PA.

2= even when they are in their PA, that's still a "human of ordinary flesh and blood" inside that armor. They PA may give them all sorts of abilities. It -certainly- will greatly increase their survivability under many circumstances.

But the person inside is still essentially "a soft squishy in a hard shell".

Knights got bruises and shattered joints or limbs by some blows that did not destroy their armor.

Cops may survive getting shot because they are wearing armor. But they often get -hurt- even if the armor stops the bullet.

A super using PA should not have to deal with these SFX issues because they have not chosen to get points for using this SFX.

A NCM hero using PA should.

Re: Normal Human

If you have a write-up of Batman that does not lose points taking NCM and can do what Batman does in superhero teams, let's see it.

 

Until I see such a write-up, I will assume that forcing Batman types to take NCM penalizes an genre-appropriate character concept.

 

If I feel the need to identify normal humans with a game mechanic, I will pick a mechanic that does not cause this problem.

This is easy.

Use whatever stats represent peak human genetics in your world (if they are not 20's, then you will need to redefine NCM to that maximum. I use 25 in my game worlds).

Then throw in a few Heroic Talents.

Then buy mondo amounts of Skills and MA.

Toss a few General Levels in for icing.

...and you get the Batman that even Supes does not want to F with.

(Because, as has been demo'd many times in the canonical material, Bruce -can- and -will- defeat Clark if allowed to dictate the circumstances of the ecounter and is given enough time to prepare.)

Re: Normal Human

None of those actually cover what NCM does.

Damn straight it covers the SFX of what NCM means compared to being a super.

A building only kills non-super Character if they don't have appropriate defenses to cover it. Just like a super character only lives if they have appropriate defenses to cover it.

A non super character =CAN NOT= have the appropriate defenses to withstand a direct-to-the-body hit of a skyscraper falling on them. EVER.

A being that can survive having tons of building collapse directly on his body is by definition not human unless you can show me a RW counter example of exactly that.

Normal humans can get lucky and survive because the Twin Towers collapsed -around- them rather than -on- them.

But if a skyscraper falls directly on the body of a being defined as being of normal flesh and blood, they are DEAD. Period.

Re: Normal Human

A character who has no characteristics above the NCM maximum is not limited by the NCM disadvantage.

False.

If we have two characters with identical stat blocks, with no stat over the NCM, show me how they will play differently, by the book rules, because one takes NCM and the other does not.

This debate over NCM keeps ignoring the very germane fact that you have to GM the SFX properly of any chosen effect if you are doing your job properly as a HERO GM.

That is very much the HERO RAW.

EB whose SFX are fire are GMed differently from those whose FX are water. Or ice. Or collections of rocks. Or sand. Or ...

So if your chosen effect is "I'm a being of normal flesh and blood commonly in situations where the environment is defined and dominated by the presence of supers.", then -all- the consequences of that SFX have to be properly GMed.

Twin Towers collapse on super while they are in the basement. They are very likely STUNNED, KO'd, etc.

Twin Towers collapse on Bruce or Steve while they are in the basement.

Unless Bruce or Steve gets very lucky (and the building doesn't actually collapse -on- him), he is DEAD.

Super enters burning building to save trapped civilians. Not much in the way of after effects for the super.

Steve Rogers enters burning building to save trapped civilians. The next day Steve has smoke inhalation just like the other (NYFD NPC) fire fighter at the breakfast table.

(Actual example from Capt America title just before Bernie Rosenthal figures out his Secret ID).

These issues have -nothing- to do with the characters stats, skills, or powers; and -everything- to do with the player's choice to apply the NCM SFX to their character.

They pay for the game -mechanic- bonus in game -play- by my GMing their chosen SFX properly.

Re: Normal Human

Just from my personal point of view, I'd rather a Disadvantage work in play, almost exclusively. I'm not a big fan of the idea of a Disadvantage changing what your Characteristics cost.

 

90% of the time, once play starts, that Disadvantage won't be very Disadvantageous. The player will either have bought Characteristics as a Power, or purchased some other aspects that make them a viable and playable member of the group. Bringing some form a useful skills to the table regardless of Characteristics Cost.

 

I'd personally prefer that everyone in any given specific game is using the same purchasing rules.

 

I see, and have argued for, the merit of NCM as a Disadvantage. I just don't think it's really the best model to use and once the 6E model was presented have decided that is the prefered way of handling it.

 

If you want to play a Normal Human in a Superheroic Campaign/World and want those consequences to come to bear, then the Player and GM need to work up what those actually are. Changing point costs seems arbitrary to me in the first place.

 

Doubly so once you realize that 20 is a suggested default, by the GM is well within his rights to change them (5ER p39). The GM may very well set NCM at 35, well above even what most Supers take in more than one Characteristic to begin with. Making an NCM Disadvantage even more worthless from a Mechanics Perspective.

 

Or the GM could set NCM to 10, which can have all kinds of dire consequences for your Character. . .

 

There are a number of better and different ways to handle Normal Human without using Normal Characteristic Maximum - which, FWIW, doesn't have to be attached to a "normal human" to be taken... you could very well take the Disadvantage and declare it SFX for some other reasons "Aliens from Barax can't go above the NCM...." or whatever.

 

If you're a Superhero, and a Superbeing, whose only ability to a series of Teleportation Powers, but it otherwise Joe Average they could take NCM. Heck, they could have all kinds of off beat superpowers and stil qualify for NCM.

 

Because note that Normal Charactertistic Maximum has no effect on WHAT you are, just what stuff costs. The Why of it is left to the Player. And there are no other stated consquences for taking NCM once play starts. Unlike almost all other Disadvantages in the system.

All of this is handled by making the consequences of the requested SFX be logically consistent during game play.

Characters that choose to be "normal" in a supers campaign are stating up front that they are more fragible in some ways compared to the average super in the campaign... ...and that they want it to matter to some degree in game play.

This is no different than buying a spell or superpower with certain SFX related Ads and Limits on it.

The game mechanic result is that you get to build certain things certain ways possibly cheaper than otherwise.

The game -play- result is that the consequences of your chosen SFX, -all- of them, are going to have an impact in game play.

A character with NCM effectively gets to buy more for their CP than one w/o.

That's the good.

The bad are the implications of the SFX chosen (you are a "normal" human of what we ITRW would recognize as ordinary flesh and blood.) on how high your stats can go and how fragible you are in some ways compared to the the average super during game play.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

Occam's Razor. If there is more than one way to get a result, the simpler way is usually superior.

The more complicated a HERO construct you make, the more likely it is to be game imbalanced.

Also, many of the worst rules abuses I've seen are negated by the simple expedient of making the game mechanic(s) involved logically consistent with the SFX.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

If you want your Killing Attack NND to do Body you should buy Does Body on it.

 

If you want your NND Martial Maneuver to do Body you should buy Does Body for it.

1= that means your NND MM does BODY no matter what the circumstances are. Very much an Advantage.

OTC, what I'm describing are much rarer circumstances.

2= HOWEVER, an NNDA that always does BODY is a blatent violation of one of the tenets of HERO- that NNDA are STUN specialists.

As a GM, I'd be looking -very- carefully at such a construct request.

But at this point, I'm not epsecially convinced you actually know the rules.

You are entitled to your opinion. Since I don't have 6 ed yet, I certainly have made no claims to know those rules.

And let's remember HERO system is not supposed to be a babysitter nor a dictator.

Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while...

Based on responses to Sean's poll, I have another idea.

NA do STUN + BODY

NNDA do STUN

KA do BODY

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

So you allow NND to do BODY damage if enough BODY damage is generated by the attack? Sounds like a very inexpensive way to bypass all that pesky PD and ED characters like to stack up on.

 

To each their own I suppose.

NNDs don't do BODY unless

a= their SFX is such that the attack could have that consequence.

b= they do enough NND damage in one shot.

As someone said earlier, ITRW there are no NND attacks. It's an abstraction that makes sense under certain circumstances. Violate the premises of those circumstances, and it no longer makes sense.

Note also that if I'm honoring the logical implications of SFX to this degree, I'm doing it as much as I can in other ways as well.

Players have always liked to buy KA and NND (and put all sorts of other Ads on attacks) precisely because they want "to bypass all that pesky PD and ED".

This approach of honoring SFX as logically and consistently as possible helps maintain game balance IME.

Re: Normal Human

So why can't I have a similar Disadvantage for other things I cannot purchase? My character can never become immune to disease. He can't adapt to it' date=' train for it or withstand it. Human beings can't fly, read minds, project beams of force from their eyes or develop an armored carapace. All of those seem far more superhuman to me than developing a 21 STR or a 9 PD, but none of them are affected by NCM.[/quote']

But how often do those limitations matter in actual campaign play?

A limitation that never matters in play is de facto not limiting and therefore

 

"A limitation that does not actually limit the character is not worth points."

 

The bedrock principle of the entire DisAd system.

 

If everyone else in the campaign, or even an overwhelmingly large majority of those around you can fly or , and you can't, AND IT MATTERS IN PLAY TERMS, then you have a Limitation and should get a bonus to make up for the PiTA you have set yourself up for.

 

If everyone around you can breathe water, but you can't, it doesn't matter much in a mostly land based campaign.

But if the setting is the sunken civilizations of Atlantis and Lemuria...

 

In a world where PCs might routinely be hit by attacks and AoE occurances that would almost always be fatal to normal humans, being a normal human is definitely a DisAd if your chosen profession has a high risk of you being in situations such things could occur.

 

Heros like Captain America and Batman have to approach superhero combat from a very difference POV than Superheros like Flash.

 

NCM means you are such a normal human. You have to worry about certain things in a way that supers, even supers with stats lower than yours, don't have to worry the same way about.

 

You certainly can be a normal human w/o taking the NCM DisAd. From a gameplay perspective, that means you don't want to the issues associated with being a normal in a super world to ever substantially limit you or put you at greater risk. (The difference between Batman in his titles vs Batman in the JLA. Or Cap in his titles vs Cap in the Avengers.)

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

precisely. Recall the events in the moscow theater in 2002, when russian special forces used a "knockout gas" to knock out terrorists holding 850 hostages. Over 100 of the hostages died from the gas.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

qed

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

there are no NND attacks in the real world. There are real world attacks that NND is designed to model' date=' but that's a different thing. When the real world attack becomes sufficiently potent to do actual physical damage it ceases to be an NND attack; the abstraction breaks down. Consider a knockout gas, an especially potent dose that is non-lethal still doesn't do physical harm, it's just more effective. If the dose is so potent that it does cause physical harm, then it is, by definition, no longer an NND attack when modeled in the game.[/quote']

BINGO!

 

Exactly right. And exactly why I do things this way.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

I will assume you mean the short section on 5ER p449 regarding "blowing through a wall" when you exceed it's Body. You do not need to do x2Body, just Exceed it, and you double the size of the hole you create for every +1 Body beyond that.

 

Also note than an NND Martial Attack (Choke Hold 5ERp399 and Nerve Strike 5ERp400) do not do Body Damage; and therefore can never be used to punch through any object, ever.

 

Choke Hold has special rules regarding doing BODY Damage to a Living Creature once it is rendered unconscious by implementing the Drowning Rules.

 

So you are either using House Rules we are unaware of, or are wrong.

The only "house ruling" I'm doing is in making the HERO system as logically consistent as possible.

Let's pretend I make a grisly wall out of dead but physically undamaged humans. Clearly, this is "structural material" that I can Blow Through just as I can any other wall.

Then be more grisly and make the humans comatose instead of dead.

I submit that physics wise nothing should change.

We have now established that Blow Through makes sense when applied to bodies.

NND is clearly a game mechanic just like every other form of HERO damage. There's no such thing as ND, KD, or NND ITRW. Just damage that impairs the functioning or structure of something, and for living systems the pain such can cause.

(and it is certainly possible to do great harm -without- causing pain. Chemical burns from bases will eat to the bone without you feeling a thing in the process.)

Now let's deal with NNDs that are based on the application of force (as opposed to that are poisonous gasses or some other non force based SFX).

Some involve causing pain instead of damage. (grips like yonkyo)

Some involve disrupting the nerve clusters at a pressure point so as to impair the proper working of the body in that area. (nerve strikes and things like "hitting your funny bone")

Some involve interfering with or impairing the physical workings of a nonmuscular system. (choke holds and joint locks, even small ones like nikkyo)

What all of the above have in common is that they are attacks that if performed with too much force can become physically and structurally damaging.

Performed with too much force, all of these attacks can cripple or destroy the target area. If the target area is something like the neck, that means killing someone.

I use the Blow Through rules for NND attacks based on certain SFX to better simulate this reality.

Re: Normal Human

Lucius,

NCM was the standard RAW way to differentiate heroic characters from super heroic ones.

Changing the name of the DisAd to "merely Human" is "merely symantics".

Tomato Tomahto. Potato Potahto. (Let's call the whole debate off.)

Not being able to swim is not a DisAd in a desert campaign. It definitely is as a sailor in an Age of Sail campaign.

Name me any attack or environment stress and I will hand you a character with Normal Character Maxima who can withstand it. In fact, please do. I love doing stuff like that.

As to your challenge. Pick any situation where you need a primary stat of 40 or a figured stat based on primary stat that high, and you have a situation where a NCM human basically can't succeed (or in some cases, survive) unless they are extraordinarily lucky.

Because HERO is often used to simulate a sort of cartoon physics where people are considerably less fragile than they are ITRW, it's fairly common to forget just how unrealistic HERO can be in this regard.

This is true even in Heroic HERO campaigns. It is especially true in Superheroic campaigns.

But even in HERO, what is a passing annoyance or inconvenience for a superhero is often =deadly= to a "merely heroic" character.

If a player chooses to play a hero in a superhero campaign, they have chosen to put themselves at greater hazard in an already dangerous profession. That's a DisAd. NCM is merely the game mechanic we use to quantify that DisAd.

It is no more or less "accurate" a simulation of all of the myriad ways a being of ordinary flesh and blood differs from a super than any other game mechanic in HERO is "accurate" at whatever that mechanic is simulating.

Making that simulation as accurate or logically consistent as we want while still making sure we all have fun (this is a game after all) is up to -us-, not the HERO system. HERO is our tool. Not the other way around.

In this case, the effect that needs to be simulated is the DisAd that "normal" humans get seriously injured or die far more easily IRL than supers do in HERO supers campaigns.

They also have other physical and mental limitations that supers don't.

NCM is intended to model that.

We as people get to choose how accurately we want to model any effect by how much we "sweat the details" . Often those details are things that we as players and GMs must impose above and beyond any immediate mechanic if we want to simulate a given effect accurately enough.

That true of every game mechanic ever made for every system ever made. Not just HERO.

Re: Normal Human

NCM is the only Disad that altered how points could be spent. So it's not like any other Disad in the game.

*shrug* and that somehow makes it a -bad- thing?

The whole point of HERO is conceptual flexibility within a balance tested point based cost system.

Also - I said BatMAN. I'm going to play Batman, I will be a normal guy in a bat costume with gadgets. I will play in a Superhero Campaign, most of my stuff will take a Focus Limitation, but I'll have some non-combat stuff to help round out the group. I won't take NCM, but I will keep all my Characteristics within those limits anyways.

 

See? probably not.

I actually do see what you mean pretty darn clearly.

But you seem to missing the point that what makes Batman "Batgod" in his JLA appearances is not that he's been "pimped" to superhuman power levels.

It is exactly that his being a "mere mortal" is never more than a temporary disadvantage.

The DC Trinity is Superman, Wonderwoman, and Batman exactly because he does not let the fact that his body is "merely human" stop him from doing whatever he can to out-think, out-prepare, and out-fight whoever his opponent is. Even Clark and Diana if it comes down to it.

He is utterly ruthless in both his use of himself and others, even if the others are demi-gods, in accomplishing his chosen goal.

...and his goals are always what he feels is best for Humanity. No matter what the cost to himself.

In stark contrast, the Batman books dwell far more on Batman having human foibles and various physical and psychological weaknesses

(Bane would never have out-thought or out-fought the JLA Batman.)

In one "campaign", Batman is a "normal human" who does not let that get in the way of him doing whatever he can to be most effective.

In the other, Batman has Physical and Psychological Limitations. Including NCM.