Alcibiades

If you want to be really gruesome -- and this is what this guy would be able to do if he were in a horror movie -- you have him pull the blood out of people in great showers of gore and then manipulate it telekinetically, congealing it into a great Blood Shoggoth.

AE Telekinesis, Only on Earth, Uncontrolled, should keep it from collapsing, right?

"It has to attack" may be simulated as well or better by a Trigger, rather than a Damage Shield.

 

To be a valid inaccessible focus, it has to be practical to remove/disable it in a turn or so. Is that the case here? Prior versions had "restrainable" at the -1/4 level, which could work if removing, controlling, etc. the snakes will be common enough to merit the limitation.

 

You keep referring to "straight cut and paste from the bestiary" as though that makes any questions disappear. The bestiary is a suggested writeup for a natural poisonous snake. You're not building a naturally poisonous snake, but a mystical power snake. A naturally poisonous snake is no real threat in a typical Champions game anyway, so I would not use a typical rattlesnake as at credible threat in such a game.

How would the Trigger function? That Advantage has always baffled me a little.

Sure, you can remove them. They're not physically attached. They'll resist though.

I am not saying that something being copy-pasted from the Bestiary makes questions disappear -- I'm explaining why the power is built the way it does. It's Steve Long's poison template. (Which will actually kill a typical Champions character, should the snake be able to get its fangs in.) If there's a RAW error in it, I want to know.

I do have a way to turn it off in mind, which is the standard classical way of getting away from Furies -- entering some kind of area devoted to a deity, i.e., a temple, church, something of that nature.

I get the feeling this is irritating you for some reason though, so I'll drop it.

I'd avoid the attack maneuvers, stick with knockdown, shove, and that kind of thing if you're going to use martial arts with Kung Fu Poley.

The problem with that is that the non-killing attacks are too weak! For the supers genre anyway, which is the one I was doing it for. With his claws and teeth, he's a butcher. Without them, he's barely doing anything.

In the fantasy genre, though, things would probably be different.

EDIT: check out what happens if you give an elephant Red in Tooth and Claw (Tusk and Hoof?). Holy crap. 

I made a bear character, using the polar bear in the Bestiary as an archetype and giving it Red in Tooth and Claw, and my problem was that it wound up doing _too much_ damage (this is for a supers game with a 12 DC cap).

Assuming you don't use the "double the base DCs only" rule (and the critters in the Bestiary are not written that way), a polar bear's Offensive Strike with its claws is a 5d6 HKA. They're killing machines.

The intent was to have the venom (which certainly is not a combat power) take 5 minutes before the first part of the damage is done. It's poison, but it drives mad with guilt, at least temporarily in this case , instead of killing (like in the classical descriptions of Furies)  Again, this is a straight "cut and paste" from the Bestiary's poisonous snake writeups, just with Drain instead of RKA.

Requires an HTH Roll was intended to require the Damage Shield to roll to hit, since it is, in terms of special effects, striking snakes.

(I should probably get Focus OIF now that I think of it, since you could, say, Telekinetically remove the snakes, or mind control them, and so on ... can foci be living things??)

If you want a snake she can throw, that will then slither around and keep trying to bite the target, I would build the snake and use Summon. The attack would be the snake’s attack, and when it has used its 4 charges, it has no more venom. The Summon should be Amicable – she does not need an EGO roll to control the snake. When its tasks run out, it slithers away.

 

She uses Summon by grabbing and throwing one of the snakes. It attacks in its next phase, after reorienting itself, having been thrown.

 

 

So a very temporary madness is an acceptable compromise, but any compromise of this being a real snake that acts independently of the Fury is not. OK.

 

 

If it were built by putting Physical Manifestation on the attack, Constant and Uncontrolled, limited that the attack must roll to hit each phase, with 0 END on the followup attacks, and ending after four hits (or four attempts), how would that be markedly different, in play, from a snake that can attempt to poison the target 4 times? After running out those charges, the snake won’t be having much impact.

 

 

I’m unclear what restrains the snakes.

 

 

I assume Incarnation of the Fury is her shapeshift, however I agree with the other posters that no one else pays points to look different. If the Links to that power save the points it costs, it seems like a high effort net wash to me. If it results in a net point cost, it seems they are wasted points. If it causes a net savings better than OIAID, it feels like point whoring.

 

 

OK, she Grabs, dozens of snakes swarm over the target, but only one of them manages to inflict a bite attack.

 

 

Despite being a mystical property, mundane snake venom cures render it ineffective? That’s what the AVAD says to me, anyway.

 

I assume Extra Time – 5 Minutes means there is a 5 minute delay after the attack before it takes effect. However Damage Over Time already provides that the first damage increment occurs only after the damage increment period has passed. Given that only one DoT can be in effect at a time, there’s even less benefit to the snake hanging around.

 

How do you shut off the damage over time (a reasonably common and obvious set of circumstances must negate it)? A snakebite kit?

 

 

Summon does not need Persistent for the Summoned creature to stick around long enough to perform its tasks. That 28 points isn’t much to pay for the KA + Madness Poison, OCV, DCV, movement, defenses, etc. etc. for that Serpent. Have you written it up? Don’t forget it is Stunned on arrival, by the way.

 

Once it arrives, what will it do?

 

Also, I think the intent was that the serpents be Mind Linked, but Mind Link requires an attack action to initiate, so I don’t believe it can be Mind Linked at the time it is summoned.

 

To me, is is a "capture he effect and don't overthink it" power.

Thanks for the feedback.

"any compromise of this being a real snake that acts independently of the Fury is not. OK." No, such compromises are perfectly fine.

Many of the issues here -- "reasonably common thing that can turn it off" and Extra Time -- are because this is how poisonous snakes are written up in the Bestiary. I simply took the writeup for venom and replaced RKA with Drain. Are these writeups violating RAW?

I could get many attacks in the Damage Shield to represent the many serpents, but it would have no effect, since the venom cannot be applied multiple times.

Constant and Uncontrolled won't work, as the snake can attack different targets, not just the one it originally hit. Which I don't think that allows you to do?

I just liked making it an ophidotoxin.

Anyway, I wound up with Summon one snake, Amicable, as you said, which allows her to release one of them.

With the Damage Shield, I wound up doing this. I assume Selective on a Damage Shield prevents it from damaging things you are carrying, friendlies who touch you, and so on.

The Fateful Fangs Affect Their Minds:  Drain EGO, INT, and PRE 1d6, Damage Over Time, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (6 damage increments, damage occurs every 5 Minutes, +0), Area Of Effect (1m Surface; to use offensively, must grab; +1/4), Selective (+1/4), Constant (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Expanded Effect (x3 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+1), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Day; +2 1/4) (57 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, -2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Life Support: Immunity [Ophidotoxins], being completely incapable of guilt, having armor too thick for fangs to penetrate, or rPD defined as a force field; All Or Nothing; -1), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Attack roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; -1/4), Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4)

The large bears in the Bestiary actually do quite large amounts of damage. With Red in Tooth and Claw, the polar bear has a 4d6 HKA.

I'm assuming the context is 6th edition. Correct me if I'm wrong about that

 

 

How about "Never a physical wound, period?" Why bother with the little physical bite, skip straight to the madness. Speaking of which...

 

 

The Fury's target will recover gradually from the madness over a few days, which you may or may not want. Mental Transform can cause a longer-term insanity. This certainly works though. Are you sure you really want it on Charges? This limits you to four attacks per day.

 

NOT!!

In fact, what you describe is a pure and simple straight up attack. "I throw a snake" is special effect. If you want to throw a snake more than ten meters just remove the "Limited Range" Limitation from "Fateful Fangs."

 

 

 

No, it would just mean putting "Only in Alternate ID" on the relevant powers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindomedary notes a contradiction between "They're stuck on her; if she throws one, it just bites once and then vanishes" and "occasionally they hurl them at their victims, hey seem capable of independent action." and asks for clarification.

I don't know how to break up quotes, sorry.

The contradiction is a typo.   Should be "it DOESN'T just bite once and then vanish."

Just as a personal thing, I try to avoid OIAID for things like lycanthropes and so on, since it seems more logical to do it as a Link to a Shape Shift or suchlike.

I'm using Charges simply because I copied a poisonous snake template from the Bestiary, replacing RKA with the mind-blasting Drain, and that's what they have. The same goes for the Drain linked to HKA, only if HKA does Body; this seems to be the standard approach that Steve Long uses. Instead I could, I suppose, just take the drain and make it NND (Immunity Ophidotoxins or having armor too thick to bite through).

I want the target to be able to recover in a relatively short while simply as a game-balance issue: this is quite a powerful attack. And I'm trying to keep things under a 60 point AP limit.

The hurled snake should be hanging around being a snake even after being hurled, hence I don't see it as just a ranged attack.

What I'm going with for the time being is as follows. She has the benefits of the snakes being physically located on her, and she can also release one to do her bidding (or she could hurl it). I made the snakebits into a Damage Shield, meaning she has to grab someone to use it offensively.

What do you think? (Ignore the Restrainable limitation; that's not relevant to the power itself. And the IPE stuff, because I'm still not sure how I should do this.)

Entwined with Swarming Serpents, all slots Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4)

4 +3 PER with all Sense Groups (9 Active Points); Linked (Incarnation of the Fury; -1/2), Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4)

7 Never Any Wound to See...:  (Total: 17 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 point, Area Of Effect (Damage Shield) (1m Surface; +1/4), Penetrating (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Touch Sense Group, effects of Power are Inobvious to target; +3/4) (17 Active Points); No STR Bonus (-1/2), Requires an HTH Roll (Attack roll; -1/2), Linked (Incarnation of the Fury; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time; Lesser Power need not be used proportionally to Power with which it is Linked; -1/4), Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6)

10 The Fateful Fangs Affect Their Minds:  Drain EGO, INT, and PRE 1d6, Damage Over Time, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (6 damage increments, damage occurs every 5 Minutes, +0), Area Of Effect (Damage Shield) (1m Surface; +1/4), Constant (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Expanded Effect (x3 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+1), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Day; +2 1/4) (55 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, -2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Life Support: Immunity [Ophidotoxins]; All Or Nothing; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (HKA Must Do BODY; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Attack roll; -1/2), Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4), Linked (Incarnation of the Fury; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time; Lesser Power need not be used proportionally to Power with which it is Linked; -0), Linked (Never Any Wound to See...; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; Lesser Power need not be used proportionally to Power with which it is Linked; Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time; -0)

7 Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees) with Normal Sight and Smell/Taste Group (15 Active Points); Linked (Incarnation of the Fury; -1/2), Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4)

7 Summon 28-point Serpent, Persistent (+1/4), Loyal (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (13 Active Points); Linked (Incarnation of the Fury; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -1/4), Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4)

5 Targeting with Normal Smell (10 Active Points); Linked (Incarnation of the Fury; -1/2), Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4)

The IPE issue is that I can see how to make the attack itself invisible, but not the effects.

You can see it just fine, you can feel it just fine, but it leaves no visible wound.

In the classical literature, the Furies are generally depicted with snakes, the venom of which causes not death but madness, coiling around their bodies, and occasionally they hurl them at their victims, hey seem capable of independent action. That's the effect I'm going for,

Oh, with the important twist that the character is a fury as an alternate ID, so the snakes appear when the character changes. Which I suppose would be Duplication or Summon, Linked with the transformation power.

Hi all,

How would you do this? I'm building a character (a classical Fury, actually) who has snakes writhing over her body, through her hair, coiling around her limbs, and so on. She can throw them as well.

So far, I've built this as

Entwined with Swarming Snakes

1) A Hundred Horned Snakes Erect Shaded Her Face:  Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees) with Sight Group

2) Black Snakes Hanging in Their Hair:  +2 PER with all Sense Groups

3) Never Any Wound to See...:  Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point, Invisible Power Effects (Inobvious to Touch Sense Group; +1/4), Penetrating (+1/2)

4) The Fateful Fangs Affect Their Minds:  Drain EGO, INT, and PRE 1d6, Damage Over Time, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (6 damage increments, damage occurs every 5 Minutes, +0), Expanded Effect (x3 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+1), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Day; +2 1/4) (42 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, -2), 4 Charges (-1), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Life Support: Immunity [Ophidotoxins]; All Or Nothing; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (RKA Must Do BODY; -1/2), Limited Range (10m; -1/4)

(Maybe add in a Damage Shield as well?)

This is cheap, but it doesn't really give the full effect. They're stuck on her; if she throws one, it just bites once and then vanishes; etc,

The most accurate way to simulate this, I think, would probably be Duplication or Summon, with Mind Links for all the serpents. But, without having yet done the math, I suspect that this is going to be really, really expensive.

Does any of you Hero System wizards have any ideas?

Thank you!

EDIT: while I'm at it, how do I make an attack invisible, but the wound it leaves invisible? That's the effect I want for the bites, but HD isn't giving me an option.

Vehicle?

Anyway, I wound up going with

9 Incarnation of the Fury:  Shape Shift  (Sight, Hearing and Touch Groups), Instant Change, Costs END Only To Change Shape (+1/4), Difficult To Dispel (x2 Active Points; +1/4) (34 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x7 END; -1 1/2), Affects Body Only (-1/2), IAF (Torch Amulet; -1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4)

16 Goddess of Punishment:  Multipower, 40-point reserve,  (40 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -1 1/2 worth of Limitations; -3/4), IAF (Torch Amulet; -1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4)

1f 1) Assume the Guise of Mortals/Relive the Crime:  (Total: 40 Active Cost, 12 Real Cost) Mental Illusions 4d6 (20 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -2 worth of Limitations; Concentration, Extra Time, Increased Endurance Cost, or Requires a Roll, as well as No Conscious Control (only to make target relive his greatest source of guilt) or Self Only; -1), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Stunned (-1/2), IAF (Torch Amulet; -1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6) plus Mental Illusions + 4d6 (20 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 1/2 worth of Limitations; Concentration, Extra Time, Increased Endurance Cost, or Requires a Roll; -3/4), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Stunned (-1/2), IAF (Torch Amulet; -1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in a Sanctuary (-1/4), Linked (Incarnation of the Fury; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -1/4) (Real Cost: 6)

and so on

That's very clever Lucius. The build idea, not the cruel jab at my innocent typo.

Hmmm.

Severing Squeeze martial maneuver OCV ? DCV ? +2 DC Strike, Disable, Must Follow Grab One LImb

The whip (or chain weapon, or whatever) wraps around the limb and then you squeeze with it

 

pg 8 of the HSMartial Arts for 6th ed states the following weapons can be used with Crush

 

Crush: Staves, Weapon Shafts, Chain & Rope Weapons, Three-Section Staff, Shinobi-Zue

 

Is a whip a rope weapon?

EDIT: sorry for double posting

I can easily see squeezing someone with a whip, but its gonna have to be a pretty long one.  Even 10' won't go around a human very many times and give any kind of grip to pull on.

You could Squeeze one limb. Maybe a special maneuver? Like Crush, but weaker, and Follows Grab One Limb?

Thanks everyone, I wound up going with

Shapeshift

40-point Multipower

Slot 1: 4d6 Telepathy + 4d6 Telepathy (Linked: Shape Shift)

Slot 2: 4d6 Mental Illusions + 4d6 Mental Illusions (Linked: Shape Shift)

etc.

That seems easiest.

EDIT: as a matter of fact, the linking to Shape Shift is my way of otherwise doing OIAID, because I don't like that limitation for werewolves and so on.

In this case, it's a whip.

I'm curious as to how often you'd really be using the powers NOT at their full strength - what's the tactical advantage? 

 

If the answer is 'hardly ever' and it's mostly a character concept thing then multiform probably is the best bet, as you can build a weaker alternate form pretty cheaply (The Hulk is expensive. Bruce Banner is dirt cheap.)

Well, there are a couple reasons. First off, the Shape Shift can be Suppressed/Dispelled. Second, it can't be used in a specific situation. Third, it's to a monstrous-looking form that would freak people out.

And fourth, concept.

But it seems that this _is_ legal? So the question is moot.

Now the question is whether just the MP takes the Linked Limitation, or every power does!

Yeah, I'm trying to do this via Hero Designer.

But....

isn't

"Mutipower

40 point pool + 20 points linked to shapeshift (-1/2) -- 53 points

slot #1 -- 5 pts

slot #2 -- 5 pts

slot #3 -- 5 pts"

Functionally identical to

40 point pool

slot #1

+20 point pool Linked to Shape Shift

slot #1 adds to slot #1 in first pool

?

EDIT: and in this case, would Linked just go on the MP, or on each slot as well?

I'm not going with Multiform because it makes the character more expensive, and the two forms are roughly the same, just one has better capabilities (a bunch of stuff Linked to Shape Shift).

Maybe a Boost to all powers in the Multipower at the same time, 0 END Cost, Linked to Shape Shift? That sounds crazy expensive.

The single Multipower with partially limited powers inside it occurred to me, but as mentioned it barely saves any points.

So, as to the original question -- is the build I have listed in the original post rules-legal?

While I'm at it, if I have a martial art using a weapon that does Killing Damage, and I buy the Crush maneuver for it, does it do Killing Damage? (In other words, if you Squeeze with a Killing Attack, do you do KA damage or STR damage)?

Hello all, apologies for bombarding you with rule questions, but this game system is very intricate!

I have a question. Is the following legal? The idea is a character with two forms and a suite of powers that can be used in either form, but is more powerful in only one of them. The build is, very roughly, thus:

Shapeshift to second form

Multipower 1

1) Blast xd6

2) Flight x meters

3) Teleportation x meters

Multipower 2, all slots Linked to Shapeshift

1) Blast + xd6

2) Flight + x meters

3) Teleportation + x meters

So that the slots in the second multipower add to those in the first when the Shapeshift is active.

You're not supposed to link slots in different frameworks together (I think?), but this isn't actually doing that -- and the Daemonologist in Chapmpions Villain Teams has something similar, albeit with a VPP instead of a Multipower.

I am confounded and baffled!

Does this work?

Thanks.

Relatedly, can I use Grab (which allows you to Grab two limbs), to Grab one limb? I assume so, but I'm not sure if this affects any rules.