Warp9

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO OK, that is a good answer to the question. . . . But take it a bit deeper. Lets say that we are talking about a magic amulet which could be used by just about anybody. From a rules stand point, the amulet gives +1 OCV, but the characters in the game would view this bonus differently. As you've pointed out the actual impact of the accuracy bonus from using the amulet would change depending on who was using it, against which target. Against the same target, a character who was able to hit 63% if the time would now (with the amulet) hit 74% of the time, however, a character who was able to hit 95% of the time would, with the amulet, be able to hit 98% of the time. So how might the characters describe the impact of using this amulet, in a more general sense?

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Lets assume that f(x) = 2^(x) You're saying that that the relative (%) difference between 2^(x) and 2^(x-1) get smaller as x goes toward infinity? But that is not true, the relative (%) difference between 2^(x) and 2^(x-1) is always the same. It is always a 2:1 ratio. The relative difference between 2^1 (which = 2) and 2^0 (which = 1) is exactly the same as the relative difference between 2^11 (which = 2048) and 2^10 (which = 1024). And you'll see the exact same relative (%) difference between 2^1001 vs 2^1000 or 2^1,000,001 vs 2^1,000,000 No matter how high you go, it always keeps the same 2:1 ratio.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO I showed that the two things were equal, therefore, according to the following, they must also be equivalent. . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_relation#Examples_of_equivalence_relations No, they're not, but that is not the point. I'd the description, as a character in the game world would see it, of a game mechanics increase of +1 OCV (knowing that the character wouldn't call it +1 OCV), and please express the description in relative terms. With all modifiers taken into account, lets say that we are dealing with a target DCV of 12 and an attacker OCV of 12 (13 with the +1 OCV). (again knowing that the characters wouldn't use OCV or DCV terms). What would be game world character's description of this change, expressed in relative terms?

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Are you saying that "=" is not the same as "equivalent" ? I would think that “equal” is the basis for "equivalent." It represents a small increase in the likelihood of hitting one's target. For targets with a DCV that is one higher than the OCV (after all modifiers), it is a 12.5% increase in probability. Could we agree that this change in OCV would amount to a "relative difference" from the perspective on characters in the game world? That would depend on how the characters quantify the difference in their game world perceptions. Your specific description of the matter was: “For targets with a DCV that is one higher than the OCV (after all modifiers), it is a 12.5% increase in probability.”

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Nope. As long as it's a specific number of points, it's absolute. Even if you can draw a conclusion from it that's relative. Ah, but do you remember the "A + B = B + A" thing? You agreed that those were the same, and with a bit of math work, I can show you how the "+ 10" in the above statement is mathematically equal to a "X 4" As I've said above, Character B's Lift = 25kg X 2^( (A_STR + 10) / 5) With some simple manipulation Character B's Lift = 25kg X 2^( (A_STR / 5) + (10 / 5) ) And by the properties of exponents with like bases: 2^(4+3) = 2^(4) X 2^(3) Thus: 2^( (A_STR / 5) + (10 / 5) ) can be rewritten as 2^(10/5) X 2^(A_STR / 5 ) So Character B's Lift = 2^(10/5) X 25kg X 2^(A_STR / 5 ) Character B's Lift = 2^(2) X 25kg X 2^(A_STR / 5 ) Character B's Lift = 4 X 25kg X 2^(A_STR / 5 ) Therefore: Character B's Lift = 25kg X 2^( (A_STR + 10) / 5) = 4 X 25kg X 2^( (A_STR) / 5) Thus, unless you can find fault in my math, you can see how that the "+10" in the above formula is mathematically identical to a "X4" It represents a small increase in the likelihood of hitting one's target. For targets with a DCV that is one higher than the OCV (after all modifiers), it is a 12.5% increase in probability. For higher and lower DCVs, the increase is smaller. Or to put it in other terms, it represents the ability to hit targets of one higher DCV with any given probability (however you want to designate that: a 50% chance, a 62.5% chance, a reasonable chance, almost certainty, just a little bit of a chance, etc.). Could we agree that this change in OCV would amount to a "relative difference" from the perspective on characters in the game world?

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement From my perspective the actual "game mechanical terms" and their specific relationships to each other are unimportant. They are only abstract concepts. It is only what "game mechanical terms" represent in the game world that is important (in other words, the scale between game mechanics values and game world values). If you arbitrarily change the lifting capacity of Strength to a linear funtion, you can keep the 5x points for xd6 damage. But, if you restat all the characters so that they keep the same game world abilities (the Hulk goes from 60+ STR to 10,000+ STR), then the amount of damage dice they do will change anyway.

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement Most worlds contain a wide range of entities which could make an apparence in the game. Obviously there are big differences between a mouse and an elephant, but IMO a game system should be able to handle these creatures. I'd like to hear a bit more about your perspective on this matter. Are you suggesting that giants have no place in a game scaled for humans? Or are you suggesting that they should have their own scale within the game? Or would you work things in some other way

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO No, it had to do with your opinion about my mathematical knowledge. Looking back on your exact post: Of course, I could also say that "your posts say the same thing about you," but it would be only my opinion about what you've written. It seems that it is necessary to get a bit more basic to see if we can find some common ground. Lets say that we are talking about Character A and Character B. Character B is 10 points stronger than Character A. And I'm going to express Character A's strength value as A_STR So I'll write Character B's STR as: "A_STR + 10" The formula for Hero Lifting in kg is: Hero Lift (kg) = 25 kg X 2^(STR / 5) So for character B's STR (which is A_STR+10) that would be: Hero Lift (kg) = 25kg X 2^( (A_STR + 10) / 5) Do you agree that the "STR + 10" in the above statement represents a relative difference? But the real question is what does "adding + 1 OCV" represent in game world terms? Does it represent a linear increase or something else? I don't think adding +1 OCV represents a linear increase in game world ability. Imagine a character with an earthquake power which is rated on the Richter scale (exponential). If I am able to keep on adding +1 Richter point to my earthquake for each level of earthquake making ability, that is not a linear increase in earthquake power.

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement Here is a quote from one of the other related discussions on this matter. . . . It seems that, from this perspective, the damage is also supposed to be non-linear.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO The basic stuff is pretty simple, it is just that the arguments about it got a tad complex. And the understanding of my arguments about the matter is not really directly necessary to play the game---it is just a matter of whether or not "the Master List of Scales" should be revised. And I'm sure that Phil believes that everybody should ignore my arguments anyway.

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement I disagree. Imagine the exponential scale version of a 48 foot tall giant (8 X as tall as a normal person and 512 X the mass, and 512 X the lifting ability). The exponental scale version has a 55 STR. The linear scale version has a 5,120 STR. Which one is less playable?

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement The difference in harm done by adding extra d6 depend on a number of things. Is a 15d6 EB really 1,024 X as powerful as a 5d6 EB? That depends, against a target with 10 def, it can be infinitely more harmful. Yes it does dovetail with damage, but the rules for that are already taken care of with the Velocity Factor stuff. As the Velocity Factor stuff does things doubling velocity add +2d6, that is because X2 velocity = X4 Kinetic Energy. I would suggest that, in order to keep pace with the damage, each doubling of velocity should be 10 points. That slower rate of speed increase would also help keep things from getting off the battle map too quickly. The base velocity should be centered around the average person's velocity (actually I would assume that an average person has 10 points of Running, just like they have 10 points of STR, or 10 points of INT) STR lift doubles for each 5 points, but that doesn't mean you can't have a 13 STR. The actual formula for motion would be: velocity = 2^(points / 10) X base velocity So yes, you could have quite a bit of flexibility there, although it would probably be helpful to have some sort of chart to figure out exactly how many inches per turn you could move (for those who can't do fractional exponents in their heads ) Refer to the Velocity Factor rules in the book. . . . In a game designed around a specific setting(s) I would agree. However, for a UNIVERSAL game system which should be able to handle all settings, I think being able to handle higher values for combat movement is very important.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Sounds good to me.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Obviously a 10,030 DEX would dominate a 10,000 DEX. I believe that we can all agree on that part. I would say that the abilities of a character with 10,030 DEX are far greater than those of a character with a 10,000 DEX. (that is from the impact of this difference ability in the game world) I would also say that the lifting Strength of a character with 10,030 STR is far greater than that of a character with a 10,000 STR. (I mean from the perspective of what they can lift in the game world--the stronger character can lift 64 X as much as the weaker character) However, I would not say that the speed of a character with 10,030" flight is that much greater than the speed of a character with 10,000" flight. A difference of 30" flight out of 10,000" is no big deal (IMO, if you were watching these characters move you'd see little difference---the difference is a drop in the bucket). The STR is obviously exponential, whereas the combat flight is obviously linear. What I'm arguing is that the fact there is a great difference between characters with 10,030 DEX and 10,000 DEX implies to me that there is not a linear relationship here. To put it another way, if the DEX were linear, then 10,030 and 10,000 should be almost exactly the same in a contest (they are 99% the same by raw value), but they are obviously not 99% the same in game impact, thus they are probably not linear.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO I'll admit that "hope" was not my only motivation. . . . I like a heated argument now and again as well!

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement

Re: Alternatives to Megascale for movement See the optional Velocity Factor rules. They base damage on doublings of Kinetic Energy (which is in line with most firearms). 2 X Velocity = 4 X KE Thus 2 X Velocity = + 2 DCs

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO From my perspective, it is always possible that the other person has some valid view which I do not understand. Obviously I disagree with Phil, but that doesn't mean I'm actually correct---it only means that I think I am correct. Normally an agrument is built up of premises which lead to some conclusion. Unfortunately, often times the premises themselves are cause for further argument. In some cases, it is necessary to go a great distance from the original argument in order to reach some place of agreement. It does seem that any sort of agreement was elusive in this case---but I was hopeful that we'd get there eventually.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO It is not a matter of “what I said” vs “what is in my head.” It is a matter of understanding what the “facts” are vs what is just "your own opinion.” That sort of thing would be helpful for you to keep in mind. What I was suggesting is that you should have prefixed some of those statements in a way that showed they were your opinion, rather than “given facts.” And I simply pointed out how you contradicted yourself. You just did it again. Do you see how "does not tell you anything" is contradicted by "tells you something"? You probably don't, since you haven't so far. Do you understand that it is possible to know something about one factor, but know absolutely nothing about a different factor? Just knowing that Character A is 5% stronger than Character B doesn’t, in and of itself, tell you anything about an actual difference in lift, in terms of number of kg. Well, you'd need the additional information that lifting capacity in HERO is exponential (provided in my original post), and precisely what that exponential relationship with the STR stat is. Many other stats in HERO (as listed in my first post) do not have an exponential progression. In this case, IMO you are confusing the difference, between not understanding the terminology and not actually having enough data. Yes, there is an assumption that one understands the terminology (Hero Stats) and also the basic language. The point is that the information IS there if one understands it. But that is simply not true with the statement about “5% increase in wage,” even given the assumption that one understands the terminology and language, there is to not enough data in such a statement to come up with an actual dollar amount for the raise. Provided the listener knows how to convert meters to kilometers. Again your statement above is IMO a case of confusing the difference between “not understanding the terminology” and “not actually having enough data.” The data is there–if you understand the terminology. But "two different statements" and "telling you different things" are not the same thing. Just because you can draw the same conclusion from two different statements, doesn't mean they're both absolute or both relative. Again, I believe that you are confusing the difference between terminology and data. 5km vs 5,000m may seem like a difference in data, but it is only really a diffference in terminology. The same thing goes for "+ 10 Hero Lifting STR" and "lifting 4 times as much." They may be different terminology, but the actual data is the same. If two statements are equal, then, in the cases I can think of, they are either both absolute or both relative. And "+ 10 Hero Lifting STR" = "lifting 4 times as much" It is the same as saying that: “A + B” = “B + A” “A+B” may look a bit different than “B+A,” but they are really just saying the same thing. If OT means “on topic” you are correct. I am trying to explain to you why I feel that your list of scales needs to be corrected. One specific example of a place where I feel that there is an error is your assessment of the impact of Combat Skill Levels on game world combat ability. But, in order to do so, some ground work needs to be done first. For example, the understanding that differences such as “+10 Hero Lifting STR” actually represent ratios between levels of ability. This perspective is important to understanding my general views about the functioning of exponential scales in Hero. This perspective will, in turn, lead to the explaination of why IMO increases given by Combat Skill Levels levels do not scale in a linear manner to increases in game world combat ability. However, one needs a certain amount of willingness to stay with an argument in order to come to a conclusion of such a debate.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO But that is not what you said. . . . That is a statement about what I know, not what is in my posts. I said that the information given, by itself, does not tell you anything about the specific information that was asked for. . . . It tells you something, but that something was not what was asked for. Look back at the actual question: “In Hero Game System Terms, Character A has 10 points more lifting STR than Character B---what does that difference mean, when measured in kg?” If one is looking for an actual number in terms of kg, then the information that one character can lift 4 times as much is not at all helpful. It might lead you to the answer, if you had some additional information about the situation. But, if the only thing you know about the situation, is that "A_lift kg = 4 X B_lift kg," then you are not any further toward getting an actual number of kg than you were without the information. Are you not following your own posts? This is what I've been saying to you, and you keep arguing against me. "5% raise" and "$60 raise" are two different statements. One is relative, one is absolute. Even if they refer to the exact same phenomenon. "+10 points of STR" and "four times the lifting capacity" are two different statements. One is absolute and one is relative, even though they refer to the same phenomenon. "+300 kg" and "four times the mass" are two different statements. One is absolute and one is relative, even if they refer to the same thing. "5% raise" and "$60 raise" are two different statements, because they do not convey the same information. Imagine that you were to hear somebody on the radio say that they got a "5% raise." Could you figure out, with no additional information, that it would be the same as getting a "$60 raise" ? No, of course not, because those two statements are very different. However, imagine that you were to hear somebody on the radio say that their Hero System Character had 10 points more lifting STR than some other Hero System Character. In that case, would you know, with no additional information needed, that the one character could lift 4 times as much as the other? Yes, obviously you would, because those 2 statements are saying the same thing. It would be like saying that "I ran 5000 m" instead of saying that "I ran 5 km" ; those two statements are just different ways to say the exact same thing. Now do you understand why "5% raise" and "$60 raise" are two different statements. But why "+ 10 Hero Lifting STR" and "lifting 4 times as much" are telling you the same thing?

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO You are mistaking your own assumptions for facts. That is not a good mistake to make. For example, it is only your assumption that I didn't know the difference between linear and exponential. No because they are not the same statement. If they were the same statement then they would IMO have to be both relative or both absolute. Yes, please do. The question is, do you? If Tom has got 30 apples and you've got 20 apples, that is a difference of 10 apples. 10 apples is an absolute difference. For example, if your friend Pete comes along, and he has 10 apples, you can add those apples to your apples, and you'll have the same number of apples that Tom does (20 apples + 10 apples = 30 apples). If you can lift 400 kg, and Tom can lift 700 kg that is a difference of 300 kg. 300 kg is an absolute difference. For example, if your friend Pete comes along, and he can lift 300 kg, then the two of you together can lift the same weight that Tom can lift (400 kg + 300 kg = 700 kg). But that kind of thing doesn't work so well for Hero lifting STR. If your character has 20 Points of Hero Lifting STR and Tom's character has 30 Points of Hero Lifting STR, that is a difference of 10 Points of Hero Lifting STR. But that is only a relative difference. You can’t look at that 10 points of difference like you can look at a difference of 10 apples or 300 kg. With the 10 apple difference it was a simple matter of finding somebody else with 10 apples, but unlike the apples example, it is not as simple to fill that STR gap. A 20 STR character and a 10 STR character can not combine their lifting abilitys and match the lifting ability of a single 30 STR character. (20 STR plus 10 STR does not equal 30 STR) Does that explain how it is different? If not, here is a different perspective on the matter of logarithmic scales. . . . http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~branton/interaction/faqpoly.htm

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO In case you didn't notice, A_lift = 4 X B_lift *IS* an expression containing unknown variables. But, if it would make you happier, we could say: y = 4x or y/4 = x The problem is that just knowing that relationship tells you nothing specific about y unless you happen to know what x is. And it tells you nothing specific about x unless you happen to know what y is. They only happen to describe the same thing at one given point---they are not really equal statements. It is possible to get 5% raise in salary without getting an additional $60 a week. It depends on what your actual current salary is. +10 Hero lifting STR and X 4 lifting ability are always the same thing. Nope, I haven't "got it" yet. You mention that "300 kg more is an absolute difference" I assume that you mean something like "700 kg is 300 kg more than 400 kg." Or maybe "30 apples is 10 apples more than 20 apples." And when you posted: "10 points is an absolute difference," you mean something like: 30 Hero Lifting STR is 10 Hero Lifting STR more than 20 Hero Lifting STR. The problem is that the difference in the "10 points Hero Lifting STR example" is not the same as the "kg example," or the "apples example. "

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO And then you prove yourself wrong in the next sentence: See? You *can* answer something about the difference in kg lift. I knew you could! Nope. That doesn't narrow down the difference, in terms of the actual kg lift, at all. The difference in kg lift ability could still be anything. All I've said is A_lift = 4 X B_lift. Yes. 10 points is an absolute difference. Twice as many points is a relative difference. 300 kg more is an absolute difference. Four times the weight is a relative difference. The problem is that "+10 Hero Lift STR points" is the same thing as "being able to lift 4 times as much." Therefore, if one is a relative difference, then so is the other one.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO OK, lets take a look at this absolute difference. Character A has 10 points more lifting STR than Character B. So, how many kg does this absolute difference in lifting ability equate to? What is the point of this particular question? Do you not know the answer to this question? Are you being deliberately obtuse? I really do not know the answer to that question. If someone were to say to me: “In Hero Game System Terms, Character A has 10 points more lifting STR than Character B---what does that difference mean, when measured in kg?” That is not a question that I could answer. If I was given only a 10 point difference in Lifting STR between characters, I would not be able to answer anything about a difference in kg lift. To me, and perhaps I am obtuse, a 10 point difference in (Hero System) lifting STR means that one character has 4 times the lifting ability of the other character. Which sounds, at least to me, like a relative difference in ability. However, you say that the 10 point gap represents an absolute difference. . . . So I am asking you that question again: “In Hero Game System Terms, Character A has 10 points more lifting STR than Character B—what does that difference mean, when measured in kg?”

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO The point is that, although the characters don't actually know about the game mechanics directly, the game mechanics have a measurable impact on the game world. My overall point has been the same one all along, which is that: there is not a linear relationship between CV shifts (game mechanics terms) ans shifts in game world combat ability. I'm just trying to break it down into much smaller bits, so that it is possible to examine the specific steps that I took to get to that perspective. That way it should be possible to find specifically where we disagree on this matter. Again, in game world terms, you'd have to do some test to figure out each character's combat abilities. . . . but I'd say that the "pre-scaled" numbers would be measured in percentages relative to a given target. Pre-scaled: Under a given set of conditions: Character A has a 50% chance to hit Target B Post-scaled: Under a given set of conditions: Character A has 6 OCV and Target B has 6 DCV. Pre-scaled: Under those same conditions: Character C has a 16% chance to hit Target B Post-scaled: Character C has 3 OCV and Target B has 6 DCV. OK, lets take a look at this absolute difference. Character A has 10 points more lifting STR than Character B. So, how many kg does this absolute difference in lifting ability equate to?