Warp9

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic You might be right, although, on the other hand there might be more effects than you'd think. I'm guessing that, if you spend some time looking at every effect you could possibly imagine, you'd get a pretty long list. For example, you'd have to include off the wall stuff like using your PK power to create vibrations, and thus make sound images. Once you include Pyro/Cyro Kinesis and all the things you could do with that, the list expands further.

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic Those are some good ideas. My main problem with that set up is that, if one really wanted to be able to cover all variations of a flexible power, then having to pay points for each effect would get pretty expensive. I'm thinking that it might be better if it was set so that easy effects were 1:1 and everything else was more expensive than 1:1, that way it could be more like a VPP with a limitation. You'd just buy a pool that was large enough to cover the biggest "easy" power, then the other powers would fall into place from there.

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic You could definitely approach things that way with this example, but once you go far enough along that route, it seems like it is not too much different than changing the point cost. The problem with that solution is that IMO it is too narrow. The real problem in the TK example is not that we are dealing with a specific class of power, the problem is that the world logic doesn't mesh with the game logic. It is a conflict between equality of abstract Hero point values vs the equality of various theoretical applications of force. There are many other things which you could do with a very flexible TK, the problem is that often times (from a world logic perspective) X units in power A are not the same as X units in power B. The flight vs psi-blade is just one example of the problem.

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic If we are dealing with a hyper-thin blade that can carve through flesh and bone like a hot knife through butter, we may be talking about something that can cut people in half with a single swipe, that would be a pretty big attack.

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic This is a great example of why it is important to understand the gamist/narrativist/simulationist perspective. I would describe your argument as coming from a gamist perspective, which is fine. And you are correct about the game balance thing--that is a concern. However, I am coming from a simulationist perspective (at least at the moment). And I'm not so interested right now as to whether or not this concept is a good idea from a pure game play stand point.

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic Thanks!

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic In Physics terms, work is a measure of the net impact you can have on the world, without consideration of time. Climbing to the top of a mountain represents Work (or Energy). Power is Work / Time. You can have a large amount of power by doing a moderate amount of work over a very small amount of time. Now a character with 10" Flight, and a large amount of END, may fly to the top of a mountain, but again the net travel distance is not a measure of power. Power represents the ability to go from 0 mph to 30 mph in 0.1 seconds, but that doesn't have any bearing on how long you can keep going. I'd compare raw power to active points, which is the maximum amount of raw energy you have available at a given instant. Net impact on the world over some undefined period of time is a different matter, but that isn't really a matter of raw power. The long distance guy has more total energy output in the long term, but the sprinter has more power. Unless you just assume that the sprinter has a higher SPD (which I guess is doable), then you have the assume that the sprinter has more APs in running than the distance guy. Not so: the Death Star only needs to fire once! I agree that it is some what ambigious where the line is between "it's hard to do because I'm at the limit of what my power can do" and "it's hard to do because this action is simply more draining." What you're suggesting could be very useful in some cases. But I'm not really sure the example of the Telekinetic it is a simple matter of strain on the character's part. In the example, Raw Force represents what the character can and can't do. Perhaps another Telekinetic character, with similar abilities (but a smaller pool), may be too weak to fly at all, but he can still do massive damage. That is possible.

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic In some ways this is close to the custom cost concept (which I faver), but there are subtle differences. This approach would be more in line with keeping the standard Hero rules, and costs, while simply using custom limitations to keep the character's power in line. Interesting.

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic That would definitely be one way to approach the problem. . . . But, as I said above, that gets back to World Logic. And it makes perfect sense if there is a trade off between power and control. But, if that is not how the source material describes the funtion of the power (if there is no real trade off between power and control), then we have a problem. As you point out: in GURPS 3rd edition psionics, power and control are both separate, I'd like to explore the question as to what happens if we try to stay true to such a vision of the world (or more generally, other visions of abilities which may not fit into Hero game logic).

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic That is very much along the lines of what I was thinking so far. I like the idea of modified power costs, although the problem is that there is some overhead to setting that up---still, that is the way I'd tend to go.

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic My problem is that we are back to "world logic" here. But what if one doesn't visualize the PK as working so that it "takes a lot of power to compress the blade to that thinness" ? One might visualize Power and Precision as being two very separate things, as they are in GURPS 3rd edition Psionics (you have raw power and a skill level which represents control of that power). Sure I could, as GM, say that I don't like that concept, and simply refuse the world logic behind this character---problem solved! ---but what if I do like the world logic?

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic Off hand, I'd be inclined to equate the max force with active points. I'll admit that the following is somewhat subjective, but IMO the real difference is between max power and END can be seen in sprinter vs marathon runner. The sprinter has more max active points, but the distance runner can run for less END. The distance runner just doesn't have the power to go as fast as the sprinter, and it is not a matter of END. And if we are describing the limitations of this PK ability, I'd tend to think in the same terms of Power vs End. It could very possibly simply require more power to levitate than the person with the PK has. The above statement is a good point, although at some point along these lines we could just begin implementing custom costs for different powers.

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic I do not actually have a player who wants this power. However, I have had a number of instances where I've had a VERY specific idea about an open ended ability that a character would have, and I mean very specific in game world terms, but when I try to express this ability in VPP terms I run into the problem of being forced into Hero Game logic. BTW I'm having a bit of trouble finding the M:TA stuff on Surbrook's site---I must not be looking in the right place. Where should I be looking?

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic

Re: VPPs and Game World Logic Still, imagine what would happen if a Player came to me with that PK concept I just described, and asked my how to do that in my game. Given that I've probably already told him that "Hero is the most awesome game, where you can build almost anything you can imagine," it would be nice to be able to give a more specific answer than: "this is outside the scope of the rules." I'll definitely check that stuff out.

A cool thing about Hero is that I can use it to create characters for a large number of different worlds. A cool thing about Variable Point Pools is that they can simulate a character with a very flexible power. So let us imagine that I want to simulate (in Hero terms) a specific character concept from a specific world. This character has a very versatile psychokinetic ability. He can use this ability to accomplish a wide variety of tasks, only limited by his imagination and the raw force he can generate with his psyche. It would seem that using a VPP for this character would be the perfect choice—but there is a problem: the logic of this world doesn’t match the logic of the game in terms of point equivalence. From the “world view” the character is limited by raw PK force, but that force, used in different applications is not always equal value in Hero terms. . . . For example, if the character focuses his PK into an almost infinitely thin blade, then it doesn’t take much raw force to do a HUGE amount of damage. Or the character could also very easily do massive internal damage with very little force by focusing his power inside a target’s brain. However, just hovering in the air requires lifting one’s whole body mass against the force of gravity which would be a significant application of force. By the world logic, the character should be able to easily chop off a target’s head with a nigh infinitely thin psi blade much more easily that it would be for him to levitate, but by game-logic, an attack that would chop off a target’s head would be much more expensive point wise (massive killing attack), than simple levitation (small number of points in flight). So how is the best way to create this character, in Hero terms, as he is in the source material? I’m specifically curious if people have suggestions about setting up something like VPPs as a versatile pool of power. But in ways which do not follow Hero game point logic, and instead represent some other logic (like the pool of raw PK force which I mentioned above). This same issue could apply to other situations: For example, a gadget pool which is limited by tech level and materials. Or an expense account where things of equal $$$ costs are not always equal in Hero point costs. I’m not expecting any simple answers here. And what I’m looking for is, in many ways, almost by definition, outside of Hero rule logic, but I am curious what people think. . . .

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO I'm not sure you'd ever directly see an offense factor, or a defense factor, but I think that their existance would be implied to the characters in the game. If they were to accept the offense factor concept, then this offense factor is what is being increased by things like the amulet (which I mentioned before). And this increase is reflected in contests between offense factors and defense factors, as some change in percent change to hit.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO It seems likely that the character's lift would vary a bit between different times. The rules give us the basics, but in this case the GM could use his common sense to deal with specific situations where minor variations in lifting ability would be important. Although IMO ideally the rules would handle this situation. I'm not suggesting that the character's would actually know their Hero STR score. The point is that this score actually has an impact on the game world. And that impact on the game world is something that the characters can experience. The scale in this case is the relationship between the abstract rules (which the characters do not see) and the game world (which the characters do see). Again, as above, I'm not suggesting that the characters would know what combat flight means---but they could experience the impact of that ability as it applies to the game world. And again, it seems likely that the character's running speed would vary a bit at different times. The rules give us the basics, but in this case the GM could use his common sense to deal with specific situations where minor variations in running ability would be important. These points are an answer to one of your statements (see below). My point was that "scale" is about the relationship between the world of the game mechanics and the actual effects that the character in the game would see. Example GAME MECHANICS: "30 Lifting STR" (characters do not know about it in these terms) GAME WORLD: "Ability to lift 1600 kg" (characters do know about this result) The question is, what is the actual impact that "+1 OCV" has from the perspective of the characters? Does it represent a linear increase in game world offensive (targeting) ability? So far, Phil has dealt with percentages of targeting success in various contests, and that is great. But I want to go beyond just saying that "Character A has a +12% chance to hit Character B," and make some statements about the actual offensive ability increase. I'd like to look at what type of change in offensive ability would give that observed increase.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO I responded to part of this quote above, but I also wanted to get the other part as well. . . . I do agree that there are some big problems with trying to look too deeply at the game-rules/game-world interactions. However, I also assume that these abstract rules are supposed to relate to a world that we can hopefully visualize, and which should "make sense" to us at some level.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO So the fact that a given increase in X points of STR means an increase in Y kg lifting ability in the game world is not about what the characters see? Are you suggesting that X points in combat flight results in Y increase in game world velocity has nothing to do with what the game characters directly experience?

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO I think you mis-read his actual quote, I will remind you what he said: ( did you catch the part where he said "any function" ? ) I can repeat for you, and make it still larger, if you missed it. He did refer to linear functions earlier in his post, but "any function" would include both linear and exponential functions.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Your results were close enough. The amulet is helpful because it is an example of the characters being able to see the same increase being applied from one character to another. And in terms of "why CV is non-linear," I'm getting to that. I was sort of hoping that we could get to a specific idea. This idea I was trying for is that the characters in the game could see that there was some sort of "offense factor" which drives how likely one is to hit (although they probably would not call it OCV). As I said above, I'm getting to that.

Re: Master List of Scales in HERO Yes, there are other examples of OCV enhancement than a magic amulet. So, from the character's point of view, we have some sort of "offence factor." Also we can increase this factor by a set amount and look at the impact on offense/defense contests.