Shiva13

The point shift was to account for pricing changes.

From Fifth to 6th edition, that is true. But from 4th to 5th the price of individual elements of characters were not that different.

I tried to keep things civil. That's all.

Tasha:

The growing view of complexity comes from the verbosity of character sheets. 4th edition, the baseline superhero character was 250 points. 5th edition, they lept up to a 350 point baseline, And 6th edition, the baseline is now 400 points.

The verbosity in character sheets actually started in 4th edition with Dark Champions. It was a paradigm shift in how characters in the sourcebooks were presented.

Hi Darrin/Shiva13,

 

Thanks for taking the time to post here. I can relate to your point of view. I haven't actually gamed in several years. The times I've been active in face2face games in the past 20 years is actually quite sparse. I look at Steve Longs contribution to HERO as a "better than nothing/fusion". The level of crunch he introduced with Dark Champions (especially super-skill abilities like Deadly-Blow that overlap existing Hit Location mechanics) bugged me in certain spots too but without him and the other investors of DOJ who published 5e we would have been stuck with Fusion as the 'last' published edition of the game and 4e's BBB as the last good one. That really would have been the end of HERO. There have been a LOT of really good 5e & 6e books published. The Ultimate Martial Artist is one of the best HERO supplements ever and the rest of the Ultimate books and their 6e equivalents are all good as well. Honestly, if there had not been a 5e I would probably not own any modern gaming books. It's the only stuff I've spent money on in the past 10 years. The only other options in my local community for face2face gaming has been D&DvX or Warhammer and I had no desire to invest any money into those systems. About 7 years ago my then wife and I hosted a D&D3.5 campaign (ran by someone else) for a couple of years at our place. We were loaned the books we needed so I gladly participated but it was just a "this is better than nothing" situation. I would have jumped at any opportunity to play HERO instead. But I'm just goofy that way.

"Better than nothing" alienated a significant majority of the 4th Edition fanbase to a worse degree than Fuzion ever did. It only embraced the hardest of the hardcore fanbase, and utterly ignored the rest of the game's audience.

I bought Wild Talents I did not care for the system but it was well worth it for the world setting. I still think it scales poorly to 4 color comic gaming but was great for lesser powered supers gaming. The thing is that we all appreciate different things or we'd be fighting over the same thing.

 

No offense, Shiva13, but I like to get my eyes on a book and I certainly don't rely on a reviewer to make my decisions in movies, games or music. I am pretty independent minded. I think your way off in your assessment of HERO. Hero 5th edition was one of the best ever produced with outstanding support. This is depsite Fuzion and some of the lame 4th edition supplements. There is a lot to be said for simplicity though and retro games of simpler days are popular now. But I would like to present a different issue.

 

It is not just hero, it's RPGs in general that have declined. There are so many choices for enterainment than there was in 78 to 85 probably the hey day years of RPG gaming. Now you have the card games, online MMOs, Xbox, playstation and the digital world to contend with. This decline would have happened no matter what as tecnhnology and entertainment grew alot with more choices. It has little to do with a split in HERO system community because it affected RPGs as a whole. Was there a split in D&D? Vampire? Traveller?

 

I don't think there was a migration as much as an exodus from gaming in general.

Let's not get into a "fan defensiveness" situation here. They tend to devolve rather rapidly. And I just don't want to deal with that.

I've been with the Hero System since 3rd edition. And I have a copy of 2nd edition. I also have a complete run of the Adventurer's Club. And one of my letters was printed in issue #9 of the Champions comic book series. So yeah, I've got more than a little experience with the system and the community around it.

My view of the Hero System is my own. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking.

I am the one who posted that original post on RPG.net. Completely my responsibility.

It already is a big trend. It's been an ongoing issue since before the rise of Fuzion.

A rift in the Hero System community formed around the issue of increasing complication and definition. As a result, those who really did not like the growing complexity ended up feeling disenfranchised. As the company focused more and more on that hardcore audience that liked the growing complexity.

That rift eventually led to the massive migration of those people who had been Hero System gamers that the company chose to ignore to Mutants & Masterminds. Which contributed, at a shocking level, to that game system's success and popularity.

So honestly? I view your concerns about Hero System gamers migrating to other systems as being a case of "too little, too late". Because the Hero System now is what it has become.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

One of the other reasons to advocate lower SPD scores, is the effect it has on END per turn.

The higher the SPD score, the more END you spend per turn.

So if you artificially inflate SPD, you have to artificially inflate END as well to compensate.

Lower SPD scores allow for a greater efficiency in END use. Which also leads to a character being lower point cost overall.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

This is totally doable in HERO. Actions/skills that have a base time can still be performed in a shorter amount of time for a penalty of -2 (or -1 or -3 or whatever) per step on the Time Chart that a character attempts make it faster. Skill Levels could be purchased that counteract those penalties' date=' and thus allow a character to perform a skill or action much faster than normal.[/quote']

 

Skill levels that have no effect on combat stats are actually pretty affordable. So this could be incorporated into a Speedster pretty easily as a power.

 

And thank you for helping further support my point. That a speedster on the level of the Flash doesn't need an inflated SPD to be absolutely effective, and fairly represented at at my example SPD of 4.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

The one issue I've seen with representing speedsters entirely via powers instead of Speed is that you get "gaps" where the player didn't anticipate a particular situation, or it's unusual enough that making a power to cover it is unwieldy.

 

For example:

Ok, so you're the Flash. You have SPD 4, but that's ok because you have enough Running and Autofire to blitz through a whole room of mooks. But suddenly, you need to run through a base, quickly entering a number of rooms, hitting commands on the computers inside, and locking the doors behind you. Entirely in-concept for the Flash to do - but your powers won't cover it (this would need either some rather dubious infinite-Triggered TK, or an extremely expensive AoE TK + Clairvoyance thing).

 

Now a GM can handle this, if they're willing to be a little loose with the rules and allow "reasonable" actions with a power skill roll, regardless of the hypothetical active points. But as a player, there's certainly the temptation to take the guaranteed effect which doesn't rely on a generous interpretation.

That's actually a gap in the Hero System itself that you have exposed. Not really a SPD issue. It's something the Hero System doesn't really have a practical method of representing.

In Mutants & Masterminds, there is a power called Quickness. It allows a character to reduce the amount of time to complete non-combat skill based tasks at a reduced amount of time of completion, depending on their Quickness rank. This allows characters like the Flash, to do things like tearing apart an engine of a moving car in the blink of an eye.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

CasualPlayer,

Thank you for understanding. You hit exactly the points I was trying to express.

SPD inflation causes a lot of negative effects. If a player becomes accustomed to that inflation, they most certainly will be jarred when a GM does something about it.

However, I have tried to stitch in my "soft ceiling" directly into my campaign ground rules. So that when players come up against them, it is there from the outset. And doesn't feel tacked on mid-campaign. It's a standard that applies across the board, universally. Everybody is expected to abide by it. Including the GM, when opponants are made to challenge the characters.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

Shiva: The way to encourage building to concept is to refrain from punishing some concepts or rewarding others.

When it comes to character design, I don't punish any particular character concept. I do, however, believe in strong mechanical regulation of the system by the GM. Because the consequences of not having a firm hand are pretty high.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

Well, then, I'll just have to work out the "BS mechanical exploit" first and then reverse engineer a character concept to fit.

 

Then explain to you how the mechanics evolved organically out of my pristine character concept.

I wouldn't accept said character.

I require players to give me their character concept first. Before the character sheet is made.

However, I will work with the player to create an acceptable character sheet that matches the likes and desires of both the player and GM.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

So is coming in with an Alien character, a Mutant, a Cyborg, a Robot, or an altered human as a concept "unacceptable"? Those characters would presumably be allowed to have superhuman stats, since they are Superhuman. It seems like "not Superhuman" becomes comic relief if their concept prevents access to the abilities which allow a competitive character to be constructed in a cost-effective manner. I would suggest that, in all editions prior to 6e, a "highly trained and skilled combatant" screamed "High DEX" - that gave him OCV, DCV, Initiative and fed to Speed. Reasoning from effect, this was what a highly trained combatant would logically purchase.

 

I consider it "completely unacceptable behaviour" to allow some character concepts access to mechanical advantages unavailable to other character concepts absent some offsetting advantage to those other concepts. What benefit do characters without access to superhuman characteristics receive in your game to level the playing field and ensure all concepts have areas where they can shine over other concepts?

I don't view people altering their character concept to accomodate whatever BS mechanical exploit they come up with after the fact as proper. Concept drives the design of a character sheet. Not the other way around.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

That would perhaps lead to someone changing his concept to accomodate his design.

Which I would regard as completely unacceptable behaviour.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

My best play experience with the Hero System was a game of Danger International. All of the characters were SPD 4 or less. And the time had was glorious! Play has never moved faster for me.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

Yes, I was on that list.

I have since learned to appreciate the need for simplicity.

Controlling SPD simplifies combat dramatically.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

If you're stressing over a hobby' date=' you either need to change your dance partners or just take a break in general.[/quote']

 

Currently not stressing over the hobby. I just have a history of dealing with the hobby's pitfalls. Especially when it comes to the Hero System and Champions in particular. I'm experienced enough to know that a system like the Hero System needs a firm hand to guide its use. And without that firm hand, well the consequences to the campaign being played and to the GM's stress levels can be quite serious. I've delt with that.

 

Back when I was running a campaign seriously, when I was early in my experience as a GM, I had to deal with a player who would derail and delay an entire game session for the entire game group just to discuss hi8s latest exploit of the system, and to try and get a ruling from the GM at hand on it. Even though it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the campaign being played. The player was such a behaviour problem that he rarely lasted a month in any game group in which he played. It was clear that he didn't really care about the campaign at all, or the fun of anyone else. He was a selfish jerk.

 

I game to have fun. I don't game to deal with behaviour problems.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

Very true. You can run a game with speeds in the high end and dice thundering across the table' date=' you just have to have everyone in the same range. Or at least in the same range for the story. One of my favorite campaigns of Sam's was a space game where we did have the likes of Superboy & Duplicate Lass running about.[/quote']

 

Regulation of SPD is part of the overall picture. It helps the game run smoothly. That's really the entire purpose of doing so.

 

My preference is to keep SPD scores low and manageable. It frees up character points for players to further flesh out their characters in other directions. It helps give the characters a little more depth.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

Technically' date=' by definition, playing superheroes is POWER gaming.[/quote']

 

Powergaming refers to a style of negative player behaviour that is commonly known in the gaming community. And definitely well known in the Hero System community. It describes the behaviour of those who are out to exploit the game system, the campaign, and the trust of the GM. Rather than actually making a legitimate character at all.

 

They are also one of the big reasons I have spent enough money on Rolaids, that I should be a stockholder in the company that makes that product.

 

The superheroic power level is a benchmark. A campaign style. Not an excuse to abuse.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

Abuse of SPD causes characters who legitimately should be superhuman, as dictated by their concept, to be penalized for the sake of powergaming. They are made to be less special, simply to accomodate someone's sense of competitiveness. Rather than any real legitimate reason.

I don't believe powergaming to be acceptable in the least. In character design, I believe the character concept is the prime guide in which a character sheet is constructed.

Yes, I may seem strict here. But I thoroughly believe that is someone's concept doesn't justify them having something, they shouldn't have it. Period.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

If you go back to 4th edition and look, you will see that the characters of that era were not built to any unified standard. They varied in power level and benchmarks from sourcebook to sourcebook. There was no editorial mandated standard of character creation that would guarantee character compatibility with the assumed baseline of character creation at that time in Champions.

So the arguement of reverse compatibility in character creation has absolutely no foundation.

Going back to the benchmarks set by the Normal Characteristics Maxima helps establish a reasonable standard scale in which to base characters upon.

And yes, I contest the benchmark chart in the rulebook. Because it defies the established foundation of logic in the system itself. And I have little patience for powermongering.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

Anything above SPD 4 is superhuman.

I disagree violently with people who try to say Bruce Lee was superhuman. When he was not. He was near the pinnacle of human achievement. But he was still just a regular human being.

People seem to also forget one of the fundamental issues regarding weightlifters. By the definitions of the game itself, a weightlifter is pushing when they attempt to lift such extreme amounts of weight. So there is actually no excuse for rating them beyond STR 20. Except in some rare exceptional cases.

For this reason, I also believe that the ability benchmarks chart in the rulebook is broken.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

I use an equasion I derived from the Normal Characteristics Maxima in 5th Edition Revised to control Though some people would consider it tyrannical. But I find it to be an essential tool to keep SPD scores sensible.

I have gone so far, that with my own characters, I have incorporated use of that equasion into any character I make at all.

((Dex /10)+1) X 1.333333333, rounded off

This equasion generates what I consider the maximum allowable SPD score based on the character's DEX, in my own house rules. As well as the standard I build my own characters by.

By this house rule, I have made an adaptation of Barry Allen. The Flash at having a SPD 4. quite a few skill levels, and Autofire on his STR. and the Rapid Attack Skill. Resulting in a character that has a truly enormous number of attacks per game turn.

So using that example, a high SPD is really even unnecessary for the most archetypical speedster of them all.

Having the Autofire bought to 5 shots, and having enough skill levels to reliably fire off 4 of those volleys with the Rapid Attack rule. Makes that SPD 4 character able to fire off a maximum of 20 attacks with a single attack action. They can still use the other half action to dodge, move, or whatever. And of coarse those autofire attacks can be spread over an area....

That comes out with a character that can fire off a maximum of 80 attacks per turn.

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

In my experience, SPD is the most abused characteristic in the system. It is the most prone to getting artificially inflated, simply over a player's desire to have their character act more in a turn. Instead of actually giving a care to actually the game's scaling.

This causes innumberable problems with actually running a game in the Hero System. It slows things down dramatically, to compensate for those artificially inflated SPD scores. And it starts a SPD arms race that the GM finds themselves having to play "keep up" with just to make adiquate challenges for the PCs.

Let's look at the game's scaling. Every 5 points spent on a characteristic is a doubling on the scale. And since SPD is 10 points a pop, that means a SPD 5 actually represents 4 times the ability to act as a SPD 4. Pretty significant overall.

SPD inflation breaks the system.

Re: Interesting discussio on the future of Hero System on rpg.net

Hello people. I am the "hater" with the 8 year plus history over on RPG.net. Surprised that I am here? You shouldn't be.

My history with the Hero System goes back into 3rd edition. I've had a love/hate relationship with the game system since that time. Partly because of what I saw as system exploits, part of because of the behaviour of people out to abuse the system Itself. That created quite a bit of fatigue as a GM. If not outright dread in dealing with the whole thing.

What I love about the system is the fact you can make a character just the way you want to make it. That an honest player who is not looking to be exploitive can make a character they are happy with playing from the outset, and be a credit to whatever campaign they are a part of. I'm a big fan of the good times that can be had, without misbehaviour.

Then there were the encounters with actual negative elements of the community itself. Caused by individuals engaged in acts of absolute zealotry regarding the game system itself. Zealotry I do not condone or excuse in any form. They leave a stain on the gaming community as a whole.

So why am I here? I still follow the system. And as any company rep here can tell you, I buy Hero System products directly from the company. I played in chatroom run Hero System campaigns on this very site. And I have a right to my opinions. Just as other people have a right to disagree with them.

Everybody has a history. Everybody also grows and evolves other time. As do their opinions.

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

Which ends with the company selling to a few hardcore gamers and very few new players. This is a death spiral' date=' I believe, one which DOJ likely got caught in with the vastly larger core rulebooks. Seriously, 4e, the Big Blue Book, only had 213 pages of rules. The rest was setting.[/quote']

 

It's been that way since the latter days of 4th edition, and the failed experiment that was Fuzion. The emphasis of the toolkit approach has only ever truly appealed to the hardcore. The ever expanding complexity of character generation only succeeded in driving a significant amount of the more mainstream members of the customer base away. The death spiral has been around for quite a long time.

 

As to the setting content in 4th edition. It included an adventure and a bunch of sample characters. Not much on world information. But it was enough to ignite a fire of imagination for a significant amount the audience for Champions. Those characters in particular had been synonimous with what people thought Champions was for 4 editions. They brought a life to the rule set, that by itself, has always been rather sterile.

 

This is why the Villains trilogy was so important.To bring back the ignition of that fire of imagination. To show people application, and the unique style in which Champions has been all about since the beginning.

 

Genre books are fine. They are an important part of the whole picture. However, the amount of characters displayed in those books have been pretty weak when compared to 4th edition. Which truly was the heyday of the Champions property.

 

But Champions has been the 500 pound gorilla in the room for Hero Games since the beginning. The other genres have always been a secondary consideration to that line. It is that line which has brought Hero Games its greatest success. So yes, it certainly deserves the greatest thrust of attention. It's where the money is at. The rest are mostly vanity projects in comparison.

 

Champions Villains Volume 3 was the finishing of the picture for villains period. Solo villains are the ones who definitely get the greatest level of use from superhero gamers at large. The other two books? Not so much. Villain teams get a greater use than Master Villains. Simply because of the baggage master Villains carry with them.