Demiurgos

47 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Gotta level with ya:  in a world where super-powered people, high-tech warriors, and aliens with powers that boggle the mind are all matters of course, the hatred of the super powered mutant is, in my own opinion, beyond stupid

Throughout human history, hatred of an entire group of people doesn't tend to be rational and well-reasoned.

On 9/2/2018 at 5:02 PM, eepjr24 said:

My choice of 100m as the hex size was completely arbitrary. I apologize for not pointing that out. For the +1 Megascale option you can select any set value of greater than 1m and less than or equal to 1km. Play with it till you get what you like.

No need to apologize. After all, you're the one doing me a favor by replying to this thread.

On 9/2/2018 at 5:02 PM, eepjr24 said:

For a 20 meter wide hole that is 150m deep you are going to probably use AOE Line for a 16m by 16m line (using the optional doubling of width or height instead of length and figuring the the approximate area of 20m circle to be the same as the area of a 17.2m square) by 150m. That is a +2 3/4 AOE Advantage, without megascale.

 

With megascale 1m = 20m (+1) you would buy a line that is 8m long (+1/4) pointed straight down only, no range, hole in the middle, etc. At 14d6 no explosion that would net you a hole 20m wide and 160m deep, which is pretty close. As a GM if you wanted to call it 150 I would be fine. Saves you 1 1/2 in advantages and really is a better model IMO. 

 

- E

On 9/3/2018 at 7:29 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

Now, if you want a more cylindrical Abyss, that can be done with a line.  To get the desired 150m depth will cost +1 1/4.  The width and height can each be doubled for every +1/4 devoted to that, and start at 2m, so +3/4 to each dimension for 16 meters.  Each could be doubled to 32 meters for an extra +1/4 each.  Given you are taking much less than the maximum for every dimension, I would be inclined to allow a single +1/4 to round out the area (increase the height and width from 16m to 20m (instead of the 32m max)  and the length from 128m to 150m (instead of the 256m max - the 6eV1 RAW says 125, which rounds from the doubling or could be a typo).  That's a square area, rather than a circle, so shaving it down to a circle also reduces some of the area covered, further supporting a charge of less than a full extra +1/4 for each slighting increased dimension.

 

So that would be 16d6 Blast, Physical, Standard Effect, AoE Line 128 long (+1), 16m high (+3/4), 16m wide (+3/4), Expanded all dimensions to 150m long, 20m wide and high, in a circle instead of a square +1/4), hole in the center (+1/4), 240 AP, no range (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), does not damage living beings (or only earth, stone, etc., or whatever) (-1), Linked to first Blast (-0 or -1/4*), can only fire straight down (+1/2**) 87 real points

 

* Again, using -0 as the more conservative choice although I would likely allow the -1/4 for dual linked powers

** This would be higher on its own, but the ground will normally be underfoot, not above or to the sides..  But he can't angle the line either.

 

If we gave  no limitation for either of the above, the real cost is 107.   Tack the -1/4 for both powers being linked and it is 80.  With big limitations already, adding more has diminished return.

 

24 END +9 END for the quake = 33.  We could tack on some reduced END, but it's not like the power is likely to be used multiple times  in rapid succession.

 

The line/cylinder is more expensive, but probably better simulates a hole that's deep at the edges, not just the center.

A hole deep at the edges as well as the center fits best, so I'd go with that. I thank both you and eepjr24 for your assistance.

When I convert characters or powers from one system to another, I make notes of differences between the two and which system does what thing better, and, comparing the two, I like HERO System's construction better. It attests to HERO System's versatility. In the other system, their equivalent of Tunneling was used for an officially published build as well, but I do like using Blast better. Some may not like going into too much detail, but I like how in HERO you can know exactly how much damage an earthquake of x intensity will do, and you can actually quantify how intense an earthquake has to be to tear a hole in the ground, which in the other system would just be narrative. Additionally, not only is HERO System's construction more detailed, but it also happens to be cheaper to boot.

Again, thank you both for your help.

On 9/2/2018 at 5:17 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

OK, if I read this correctly, you want a sufficiently intense quake to tear through the ground, even solid rock, leaving a 20m x 150m hole.  Not sure why it has to be exactly 20m x 150m, but OK. 

It was simply a straight conversion to HERO System, which uses the metric system, from a game that uses the imperial system.

I said that because it's supposed to be large enough to pose a challenge, but not too large. 200m x 900m was much too large, which was why I gave the size of the original. Since I hadn't put numbers to anything (I generally don't, as that can always be filled in once you've decided what the component effects are going to be), no one had any way of knowing what was excessive. Though since HERO System has MegaScale, perhaps scale for a typical AoE attack in HERO is different.

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Taking damage from falling into an abyss is the natural byproduct of falling into the abyss.  I would not make a character pay for an attack power if he uses his STR or Telekinesis to toss someone way up in the air, or push someone off a cliff.  The falling damage is a result of interaction with the environment.

Well, as far as a character paying, most players seem to have cost first and foremost in mind, and paying the least amount of points possible. If I'm looking to create an effect, cost is secondary. So long as the desired effect is accomplished, it costs whatever it costs. Some concepts are pricier than others. Other concepts don't belong in the hands of a player character, in which case cost is irrelevant, since NPCs have no point budget to worry about.

But as far as this specific instance, I said in the OP that there were two possibilities for the third part of the power: 1) "simply model the damage of the rocks, [which] would be a Killing Attack in game terms", or 2) "simply ... consult the falling rules, which would make it a matter of looking at the table for the velocity and the distance of the fall based on the depth of the pit. In which case it wouldn't actually be necessary to build anything for this part, since it would be included in the second part." Damage as a result of interaction with the environment was already mentioned in the OP. But since "you get what you pay for" (6E1 120), I simply went ahead and reasoned what the effect would be to have both options there. I don't care about cost. And, as I said, if someone looked at the sheet and saw the earthquake and the abyss, they wouldn't know there were sharp rocks at the bottom, which was another reason I just statted it up for the sake of doing so (it's also a matter of convenience to already know exactly how much damage would be sustained rather than having to look in the book since everyone doesn't have it with them). The "official" build hasn't been set in stone.

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Depends on what materials you want to destroy.  I believe eepjs24 picked 14d6 because an average roll will destroy a hex of earth (maybe paving), so if every hex in a large area is hit, the dirt in that area should be destroyed.  Probably need the limitation to be "on or under the ground".

 

This would not be Linked.  It would be extra dice to the power, limited to only affect the ground itself.

Yeah, as said above , I realized in hindsight that 14d6 was chosen because that's the amount of dice needed to accomplish the effect, so 14d6 would be the "extra dice." I actually don't know what I was thinking.

But wouldn't they need to be Linked, since the earthquake and the abyss are two different special effects? As aforementioned, Champions Powers had an identical AoE Blast Explosion of less intensity Linked to the original greater intensity AoE Blast that represented the earthquake to model an aftershock. That was a published example of lesser amount of dice added to the power, and this would be a greater amount of dice being added to the power. 10d6 is making the earth quake, and 14d6 is creating the abyss.

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What is the actual effect?  "An abyss opens in the ground" would  not change whatever is below that abyss. Does the attack actually create rocks on the bottom and cause anyone who cannot fly to immediately strike them?  If the power were used on the Golden Gate Bridge, would the waters below become solid rock, or would the bridge get demolished and those on it plummet to the waters below?

The effect doesn't exist in a vacuum. This isn't a random happening, it's an effect for a specific character who's opening the ground. Just as the character is making the ground open up, he's also making sharp rocks at the bottom the same way he opened the earth. In comics, people routinely break the laws of physics and geniuses know everything about everything and whip up deus ex machinas whenever needed, so a character who can open up the ground making rocks at the bottom shouldn't be farfetched in such an environment. The character using the power is creating rocks on the bottom for non-fliers to hit. Attacks aren't sentient. Non-fliers wouldn't teleport into the rocks, they would fall the distance from the surface to the bottom and hit the rocks. Some things go without saying.

The character wouldn't be using the powers on a bridge. Just like Avalanche, or some other terrakinetic or geokinetic, wouldn't be fighting on a bridge. They would be fighting on terrain advantageous to them and their abilities. Someone like Storm wouldn't be creating tornados in a room, she would be outdoors in the terrain in which she can use her weather powers. If she is indoors when a fight breaks out, she's going to want to take it outside.

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Why not simple Area of Effect Radius to inflict 14d6 on each hex within that radius?  Megascale on a Blast just means it has greater range.  It needs an Area of Effect, with or without Megascale.

Both the initial earthquake build and eepjr24's suggestion are Blast Explosions, and Explosion is an AoE in 6e.

2 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

 

No. Linked powers apply damage to defenses separately.  Anything less than 5d6 (if you use standard effect) would simply rattle the ground a little, not destroy any dirt.

 

Without Megascale, if you used a 14d6 Blast and presuming all dirt again, you would create a hole (2*.9)+(2*.8)+(2*.7)+(2*.6)+(2*.5)+(2*.4)+(2*.3)+(2*.2)+(2*.1) = 9 meters deep. Not exactly an abyss. With the Constant added it would create a 20 meter deep hole in 8 phases (19.2 on the 7th phase). 

Ah. I stand corrected. Thank you.

Actually, thinking about it now, I see that was a dumb question. You didn't type "14d6," randomly, you did it because that's the amount of dice it would take to accomplished the desired effect. Looking in Champions Powers, it says that a 6d6 Blast is "tremors," an 8d6 Blast is a "mini-quake," and a 10d6 Blast is a "major quake," so then, as you said, a 14d6 Blast would be what it would take to tear a hole in the ground. The intensity has to increase. There was a 33% increase from "tremors" to a "mini-quake," and again from "mini-quake" to "major quake," so then, as you said, a 40% increase from "major quake" to "earth opens up." That makes logical sense, so it seems you were right.

Champions Powers has this as an option for the Earthquake build:

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Aftershock: The character also causes a minor tremor that occurs after the effects of the first one have passed. Add Blast 5d6, Area Of Effect (12m Radius Explosion; +½), Personal Immunity (+¼), Trigger (occurs in Segment after character uses Earthquake, activating Trigger takes no time, Trigger immediately automatically resets; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (69 Active Points); No Range (-½), Linked (-¼), Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-¼), Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (-0). Total cost: 34 points.

Since it added another AoE Blast to the initial one modeling the earthquake to simulate an aftershock, the same can be done for the earthquake blast and the blast to create the abyss.

The only thing, and I guess numbers have to be used now, is that the hole created by this was supposed to be 20m x 150m, and MegaScale would make it much more bigger than intended. While I'm open to adjustment for the HERO System conversion, 200m x 900m is far, far, more than needed. I guess if that's what the math says, that's what the math says, but the size of it is rather overkill.

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I don't like that Tunneling build.  For some reason, it is accelerating the target falling while preventing any damage from impact at the bottom. 

To be clear, I didn't put together that or the earthquake build, they were already in existing HERO System publications that I looked through for ideas of how to go about building it. The pit wouldn't have falling damage, since the intent of that wasn't to inflict injury, but entrapment. When people unwittingly step into what was a hidden pit, the problem is that they can't climb out. I said that that couldn't be used as is, unlike the earthquake build, and would need some changes.

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I think  eepjr24 has the right idea - an area of effect attack power which destroys the ground in the area of the earthquake.  This could be as simple as added dice to the original Blast (the quake plus these extra dice destroy the ground beneath their feet) or a KA or Transform.  If written as an Explosion, the Abyss would be deeper at ground zero than at the fringes, which may make sense.  Alternative;ly, it is changing the environment, so that could work. Simply causing a target to fall as there is no ground under him may not be that powerful an effect, especially in a Supers game.

How much extra dice would be needed to achieve the effect? Since eepjr24 proposed a 14d6 Blast, and the earthquake is 10d6, would it be sufficient to just make those four dice the extra dice? Because that would fit. Transform was mentioned, as was Change Environment, but as I said, when I see Change Environment used, it's to model effects like fog, heat, cold, gravity, slippery terrain, etc., and not something as drastic as the ground being destroyed. I've also seen it used to do a point of NND damage to nearby buildings. How would Change Environment be used to create an abyss?

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Why do they hit rocks on the bottom? 

 

Because in HERO System, you decide "what you want the power to be and do" (6E1 122), then decide what game effects works best for the intended effect. They hit rocks on the bottom because that's what the power does. Same reason why Cyclops's optic blast is concussive force instead of heat vision. That's what the guy who created him wanted his power to do. Similarly, every and anything that happens in a comic book, each and every choice by a character, happens because the writer wanted it to. The inspiration was Apocalypse from the X-Men: Animated Series from the '90s, when he said, “I am the rocks of the eternal shore: crash against me and be broken.” I made a power out of it. Crashing against the rocks is the entire point of it.

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Shouldn't they hit whatever is actually under the ground?  Maybe it's an underground lake.  Maybe it's clay.  Maybe it's molten lava.  It seems like it would depend on where the attack is used.  And it should not do damage until they hit the bottom, which does not seem to be accelerated from normal falling for any reason. 

 

The damage comes when they hit the bottom. If they don't, they're not hurt. As said above, I posted a template in a HERO System publication that wasn't built to cause falling damage. Mallet and I discussed the depth of the abyss, which is deep enough for falling damage to occur as per the falling rules. The build I proposed was directly under eepjr24's post.

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

A normal attack can be lethal anyway.  I don't imagine the Thing, or Mr. Fantastic, would be killed or maimed  by such a fall, but a normal human being?  If they fall a considerable distance, 15d6 will leave them bleeding out near death on average, and 30d6 is killed on impact.  And that is before the initial earthquake damage.

The Thing or Mr. Fantastic wouldn't be expected to be. Those are two characters custom chosen who wouldn't be.

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I'd go with Linked.  Have to Blast to create the abyss and have to create the Abyss to Blast.  If it's less effective than the source game, I would say that is a function of the falling systems each game uses (or of overriding them in the source game).  In a comic book game, I can certainly see SpiderMan leaping from, swinging from or clinging to falling cars,  chunks of masonry, etc. to avoid a freefall with sudden impact at the bottom, so the "fall is less dangerous to Supers" aspect feels like a better simulation of the power.  If the best simulation would be "all the non-flying characters are killed by the fall and those who can fly are crushed by falling buildings - end of campaign", would the power need to be designed at all?

That was never said to be the best simulation. Everyone wouldn't be killed, the campaign wouldn't be over. I'm not going get into why at the moment, because that would derail the thread from the subject of the appropriate mechanics for the power. Perhaps after the best way to model the desired effect has been found.

Prelude to the Abyss: Blast x, Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (+0), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (20m Radius Explosion; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Constant (+1/2); Only Affects Targets On The Ground

So this has been the one thing no one has had a problem with, since all the discussion has been about the second or third parts of the power. Would an extra Linked 4d6 of Blast Explosion be enough to create the abyss?

13 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

I don't think you need tunneling at all.

14d6 Blast, AoE: 28m Explosion (+1/2), Megascale, 1m = 100m (+1), Hole in the Middle (+1/4) [192 Active] No Range (-1/2), Only affects ground level and below (-1), Standard effect (-0) [77 Real Points]

 

That would destroy all of the ground around the character for 200 meters outward and create a hole approximately (200*.9)+(200*.8)+(200*.7)+(200*.6)+(200*.5)+(200*.4)+(200*.3)+(200*.2)+(200*.1) = 900 meters deep. From there it would roughly be bowl shaped and end about  2 kilometers away from the player. Above figures are based on a cubic meter of dirt having 4 PD and 10 Body. The hole would be smaller in diameter and depth in a city, I would probably figure it at 5 PD and 14 or 15 Body. That would reduce the hole to about 420 meters deep and 1.2 kilometers wide. Of course, you still need to figure out the volume that was above the hole to figure out how filled it will become and how much damage people will take from either the fall or the buildings toppling on them (even if they are fliers they need to dodge falling sky scrapers). But that's just some light 3D geometry. ?

 

- E

 

Hmm.. that's a possibility, although MegaScale is a bit overkill for the purposes of this. It doesn't need to be that big.

8 hours ago, mallet said:

I don't think the 3rd part is a power or an attack. It would just be falling damage based on how deep the hole is. As Lucius said, characters with flying wouldn't be damaged. Same with characters who maybe had swinging, teleport, desolidification, clinging and probably a few other powers I'm forgetting right now that could help stop them from falling. 

The reason I was leaning toward actually statting it up, is because if someone looks at the write-up and sees Energy Blast x, Explosion, Personal Immunity, No Range, Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback plus Tunneling x, Personal Immunity, Hole In The Middle, Usable As Attack, Ranged, Area Of Effect, Only to Open Earth Beneath Targets, it might not be clear that the damage is part of it. Neither pit builds in 5e or 6e say anything about damage, and since you "get what you pay for," I don't have any problem with paying for exactly what I want.

Take this for an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E33fYGJnQag

This is similar, it's just that the victim is already conveniently standing at the edge of a cliff, which just breaks off without an earthquake. There's no Tunneling, since the empty space is already there and doesn't have to be created, but there's Killing, rather than Normal, Damage at the bottom, which is the entire point of it, since it's a Fatality. Now, with this power, there aren't spikes at the bottom to be impaled on, it's more like jagged rocks to be broken on. How would the impalement be modeled in HERO System if the spiked RKA (since, effect wise, there's absolutely no difference between the spike traveling through the air and impaling the victim and the victim traveling through the air and being impaled on the spike, it's just different special effects for what's going through the air for the same result) isn't included as part of the power?

As far as avoidance, swinging would depend on the presence of something to attach a line to, and clinging would depend on being near a surface to cling to rather than being caught in the middle.

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As for the 2nd part of the power, how deep is the abyss you are thinking of? Characters fall at a velocity of +10m a Segment, so the deeper the hole the more chances that they will get a phase to act and/or another character has a phase to save them (fly after them and grab them), etc... So in the first Segment they have fallen 10m, Second Seg 30m, Third Seg 60m, Fourth Seg 100m; fifth Seg 150m, sixth Seg 210m, then they reach maximum velocity, so the distance increases by +60m each segment after that. So, Seg 7 they have fallen 270m, Seg 8 330m. Obviously everyones take on what an "Abyss" level of depth might be, but I would say 100m would be the very minimum I would consider an Abyss and you could still see the bottom from edge of that. But going with it being 100m deep hole we see that it would take 4 segments to fall that distance. A SPD 5 character would get at least two full Phases to act before they hit the ground.

You're close, 150m, so 5 segments. I actually wasn't sure if this power could be effectively modeled in HERO System, but I wanted to try anyway, 1) just to see how it would be done, and 2) to compare and contrast. In the system I originally built it in, if you fail the DEX roll, that's it and you fall. It's seems that HERO's greater detail might actually make this power less effective. I wasn't sure how it would work in HERO to begin with, since combat is different.

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Also, assuming this is a modern day superhero campaign, this power would do a ton of damage to the city it was used in. Subway tunnels cut in half, sewer, water and gas mains ruptured, electrical lines severed, etc.... I guess this would be a badguy power, because any hero using it would be hated by everyone in the city for all the damage caused. Can you imagine how much money it would cost and time it would take to fill in an abyss sized pothole on Main st.? 

There wouldn't be any reason for a hero to have a power like this. Damage to the city actually won't be an issue, but I wanted to get the mechanics down first and didn't want that to be derailed.

No one's commented one way or the other on the actual mechanics, so I want to make sure that there isn't any issue with them. I'll use the 6e build since it's the latest one:

Blast x, Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (+0), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (20m Radius Explosion; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Constant (+1/2); Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-1/4) plus Tunneling x, Hole In The Middle (fixed size; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Area Of Effect (20m Radius; +1), Usable As Attack (does not affect characters who can avoid falling; +1 1/4), all targets standing within 20 meters of Grantor (+2); Only To Open Earth Beneath Targets (-1), Linked (Blast; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -1/4) plus Killing Attack - Ranged x, Hole In The Middle (fixed size; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (20m Radius; +1), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; When Targets Hit Rock Bottom; +1); Only Those Who Take The Fall (-1), No Range (-1/2), Linked (Blast; -1/4).

Putting aside for a moment whether the third aspect should be a part of it, would this be the correct way to simulate this power? I noticed that Usable On Others can be used on inanimate objects, which means it could be used on the ground itself, but it's probably simpler to do it the conventional way.

8 hours ago, Lucius said:

If you buy that third aspect as an attack, be sure to limit it to only those that actually take the fall. i.e. if someone doesn't fall because they can fly, they're not going to take damage from hitting the bottom of the pit.

Oh, right. Of course. How much of a Limitation should that be, cost-wise?

I thought I'd post here for feedback from the HERO Games board denizens.

I was trying to build a power in HERO System, and there were a couple of things I've been mulling over. First and foremost, HERO System is an effects-based system, so you determine what it does, and choose the appropriate effect(s) from there. Okay, there are three different effects this power has:

1) The first effect is an earthquake. In both 5e and 6e, this effect is built the exact same way, with the only difference being the name of Energy Blast (5e) or Blast (6e):

5e: Energy Blast 10d6, Explosion (+½), Personal Immunity (+¼) (87 Active Points); No Range (-½), Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-¼), Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (-0).

6e: Blast 10d6, Area Of Effect (18m Radius Explosion; +½), Personal Immunity (+¼) (87 Active Points); No Range (-½), Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-¼), Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (-0).

So that's pretty straightforward. Perhaps falling objects might be included, but that would depend on where it was happening.

2) The second effect is that the ground opens up in an abyss. There's a pit build in both 5e and 6e that, again, are built exactly the same way:

5e: Tunneling 8” through DEF 8 materials, Usable As Attack (does not affect characters with Flight or Gliding; +1), Ranged (+½) (100 Active Points);  Only To Form Pits Beneath Targets (-1).

6e: Tunneling 16m through PD 8 materials, Usable As Attack (does not affect characters with Flight; +1¼), Ranged (+½) (88 Active Points); Only To Form Pits Beneath Targets (-1).

The above build is for a pit, while this power is for an abyss, so it needs to be considerably bigger and deeper. The character using this power is actually going to be standing in the center of the area, which is unaffected, which would be mechanically represented by Hole In The Middle, and Ranged would be changed to Area of Effect. What's happening is after the quake, the area around the character is opening up into an abyss, and everything standing in the area falls into it. In the center of the area stands a pillar where the ground is in tact (the unaffected area), where the character is standing.

I don't know if Desolidification, Usable As Attack to desolidify the ground in an area around the character (who has Hole In The Middle and Personal Immunity), given the SFX as the ground opening up would be a valid alternate approach. If Change Environment wasn't explicitly said to "create relatively subtle effects," it might have been a possibility. Transform seems to offer itself as a possibility, transforming the earth into a void. The earth falling away could be part of the transformation as it turns into thin air, which would also explain the lack of earth beneath the surface. Or, since it's actually a published build by the makers of HERO System, I could just go with Tunneling, Usable As Attack, Ranged (after thinking about it, Ranged is needed since the character isn't moving through the tunnel as it's being created, which is explicitly said to be what's being done), add Area of Effect and change the size. Looking at the published build, it has the limitation Only To Form Pits Beneath Target, so it seems Indirect isn't needed to define the point of origin of the tunnel as beneath him (which is what Tunneling is usually used for anyway).

3) The third, and final effect, is that anyone/thing that fell into the abyss fall and hits rocks at the bottom. The first thought was to simply model the damage of the rocks, but while it would be a Killing Attack in game terms, I wasn't sure if it would be a ranged RKA. But since it's an effects-based system, you disregard the name, so I thought that if you throw a knife at someone, or plant a spear into the ground and knock someone onto it from a distance above the ground, it's damage that involves a distance (throwing a spear at someone or "throwing" someone, so to speak, at the spear both have the same result), and clearly isn't an HKA. The second thought was simply to consult the falling rules, which would make it a matter of looking at the table for the velocity and the distance of the fall based on the depth of the pit. In which case it wouldn't actually be necessary to build anything for this part, since it would be included in the second part. But since this is part of the power (which might not be evident to someone looking at the sheet if I don't include it), I'm leaning toward building the RKA and looking at the falling table for how many d6s it should have. That's cut and dried since it's spelling out, so there's no guessing that needs to be done.

Since it's a three-part power, I was thinking about how to put it all together since it's sequential rather than all the effects happening simultaneously. The Aftershock build in 5e and 6e's Champions Power has the Aftershock Triggered to occur after the Earthquake, and it seemed that this could also be done to Trigger the Abyss to come after the Earthquake, and the Killing Damage to happen after the Abyss. Or, with Linked powers, for -1/4 less Limitation, a lesser Linked power can be used in any phase the greater Constant power is in use, so the Earthquake could be bought as constant, so the character could pay END to maintain the Earthquake as long as he wants, then open the Abyss, and have the Killing Damage Triggered to happen after.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Is that pretty much how it should be, so nothing else needs to be done?

I don't know how useful this would be, but perhaps using scarecrows as Clairsentience with the Fixed Perception Point Limitation for observation? People might think the unexplained appearance of a scarecrow strange, but they wouldn't have any reason to believe it was actually watching them.

I was trying to think of possible plot ideas that would be interesting for an NPC, and thought it couldn't hurt to pose the question here.

Fiction is full of geneticists whose work focuses on genetic engineering for the purposes of expediting human evolution. I was wondering if an evolutionary social scientist whose work is focused on attempting to do via social engineering what genetic biologists attempt to do through genetic engineering would be able to generate interesting stories.

From this character's point of view, Evilutionary Biologists like Marvel Comic's Mister Sinister are misguided, because they're preoccupied with physical evolution while completely neglecting mental/social advancement. For example, in the Onslaught saga, Onslaught read Nate Grey's mind to see how mutants came to power in his world, and was upset to see that mutants were just as petty and venal as humans, and weren't any more suited to rule, which prompted his decision to destroy everyone. Despite their superhuman powers, so-called Homo superior wasn't any more mentally/socially advanced than Homo sapiens. The only difference between the two was the mutagenic gene. Since they shared the same evolutionary history, they had the same adaptations that were suited for an environment that no longer exists.

Social scientists use scientific principles to analyze social systems, draw conclusions, and implement strategies toward affecting change in a given population. So this character tries to guide humanity's mental/social upliftment through social engineering, while geneticists try to genetically engineer superhumans as the next stage in human eingineering. Geneticists like Teleios might be easier to come up with plot ideas for, but would a social scientist equivalent of Teleios be something that would lend itself to interesting plot ideas for a supers campaign? . It would be in character to support research into isolating genes associated with asocial behaviors, but I'm trying to think of ways he could use social engineering to affect change in society to guide it's mental/social advancement.

1 hour ago, Hyper-Man said:

I built a 5er rookie 350pt version of DC's Zatanna that could also be used as a starting point.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/The Stage Magician.html

 

Zatanna's 6-7, 220?

On 11/3/2017 at 9:29 PM, steriaca said:

The character I was thinking of is President Funny Valentine and his stand D4C ("Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheep") from the Steel Ball Run storyline and Father Punchi and his stand Made In Heaven from Stone Ocean storyline. D4C can allow Funny to travel to other universes if he goes between two close together objects. Made In Heaven can destroy an entire universe by increase gravity, then enter a new one.

I'll keep an eye out for them. From what I understand, Stands don't enter the picture until the third part, and I'm on the second, where it's all about Ripples.

37 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Sound reasoning except that it does not reflect what the rules say. 

 

There is nothing in the description that indicates they cannot speak to their friends or cannot hear anyone else.  Indeed it actually says that except for touch group senses, all of a desolidified characters senses, even active ones like radar, work normally.

 

Not a scientific way of looking at it but consistent with the rules.  :-)

Well, I can add Invisibility to Hearing Group, then, it isn't a problem. Since they're representatives of his mind/shards of consciousness that are split off for the sole purpose of preventing unwanted events from happening, they have no reason to speak, since speech isn't required for their function. Telekinesis doesn't talk either, after all, which it was initially built as.

Though isn't this an issue of what Senses a Desolidified character can be perceived by rather than what Senses a Desolidified character can use? Invisibility makes a character unperceivable by whatever Sense Group it covers. There's nothing, for instance, that says someone with Invisibility to Hearing Group wouldn't be able to perceive anyone else with Hearing, whereas that would be exactly the case with Darkness to Hearing Groups.

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

In most of my campaigns, having up to five invisible, intangible, STR 65 enforcers would make you pretty much the Man.

Ah, so no changes need to be made then. That's how his Strength of Mind manifests itself.

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

i would be thinking of how you prevent blast attacks...

Well, blast attacks are explicitly covered by the power:

Quote

No Attack Launched Against Me Shall Succeed is an aspect of the power I haven't figured out how to translate into HERO yet. He cannot be harmed by ranged physical or energy attacks, because in order to reach him, they must first pass within his sphere of influence, at which point it's subject to his control. He cannot be sniped, because no matter how far outside his sphere of influence you are, the bullet/arrow/etc. must first enter his sphere of influence in order to reach him, and once it enters his sphere of influence, he can do with it what he wishes. The logic is that once a ranged attack has been released, the attacker no longer has control over it. It travels toward its target, and once it enters his sphere of influence, it then can be commandeered. Melee attacks are different, because the attacker has complete control over their attacks at all times: they can decide to hit with full power, pull their punch, or feint. They have control over their attack the way a ranged attacker does not.

Built as TK, blasts are telekinetically deflected away, and reflected on occasion. But the game mechanic used to accomplish this effect doesn't exist in HERO System, which requires it to be built differently. I don't suppose, if the shards of consciousness Duplicates are replacing TK in HERO, that there's a mechanic that could represent them deflecting away blasts? If their STR affects the physical world, then the examples of bullets, arrows and other physical projectiles could be explained as the shards of consciousness Duplicates deflecting them or catching them and then letting them fall to the ground or something. Though them affecting energy that way might be dubious. That's one thing Telekinesis had going for it, it could account for both physical and energy projectiles.

14 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Lucius picked up on the invisibility and the DEX issue - I was more concerned about the STR.  if the advantage is +2 and the active points spent equals 32 then you are only talking 16 STR??  I would have thought you wanted their STR to be reasonably high to be able to restrain even the action of mega-STR characters.  That was what I was thinking would be your biggest expense.

That was a basic outline of some of the stuff that came to mind immediately to get an idea of the cost, not the final numbers. I just put the character's base strength to have a number there. (I'm unsure why some of the published characters have superstrength. Like, why is it necessary for the Magneto analogue to have 40 STR? The entire point of her powers is that she can make people too heavy to move, make anything weigh nothing, and make anything "fall" in any direction. What on earth would she need superstrength for?) The AoE Telekinesis the power was originally built as was STR 65 which translates as is to HERO, so it'd have to be at least that or there wouldn't be any point in changing the build. Plugging that in gets:

Affects Physical World (+2) (132 Active Points) applied to STR

Which raises the total cost to 230, which is only a little over half of 450, which doesn't change that it doesn't seem it would actually cost much less than 450.

There were limitations in that system where 65 STR was the cap for how high his TK STR could be, while HERO doesn't seem to have such a cap. So without such a cap, there's actually no reason that it has to stay at 65 for the HERO build. Would you recommend more than that, and if so, how much more?

I guess I'll use a concrete example. Speaking of "mega STR," Grond is HERO's Hulk analog, so I'll assume he's "the strongest one there is" in the Champions universe. Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks says he has 90 STR. Now, none of the Duplicates should have 90 STR, because if he's the strongest, there shouldn't be any single individual as strong as him, since that's his particular niche. But (and what makes it better than just using an AoE TK), since the character would have multiple duplicates, they can all work simultaneously to restrain him where no single one would be able to do so alone (which is why it would work better than a telekinetic attempting to Grab Grond with a single Telekinetic "limb"), and they would be able to account for Grond's four arms. How strong would each Duplicate need to be in order that, with all of them working together, they would be able to restrain Grond? (Though looking at it, seeing how Grond has an EGO of 8, the character could simply Keep 'em in Line and prevent him from moving that way for a lot less trouble, but this is for establishing how strong each Duplicate would need to be so that they could collectively restrain a "mega-strong" character.)

What I was wondering about was SPD. I was looking for a rough estimate for speed of thought (since his consciousness isn't slowed by a physical body) for a SPD number, but it seems SPD x represents how many of the 12 Phases you can act in.

Quote

I note Lucius took you to XDM.  It is an option that can be rolled out to almost every situation.  You do get a problem in using a power like that as the players might decide to pick up and move to a dimension where you did not utilise that power.  The big issue is about what the players can do about it.  Moving dimension also suggests that there is a dimension where it did happen and that might be the dimension the players choose to game in...

 

As a one-off where there is a maguffin the heroes can find and a way for them to be aware of the issue then this is a great thing to build.  For a recurring villain or organisation, the players will get tired of it very quickly.

 

As aforementioned, I liked it for a "to make character more powerful, do X" option that all the published characters are provided with. With the AoE TK the power was built as, since you have to roll to hit, it doesn't work 100% of the time, and Duplicates also require attack checks (in comics it could just "work," but in an RPG everything has to be rolled out, so it doesn't always work that way in a game). Switching the pathway to one in which the undesired event didn't occur isn't something PCs would have any defense for, or even have any idea is happening, so I wouldn't use it for the base powerset, as it's a bit too powerful for use on a regular basis. But it's perfect for when the character increased his existing powers, as that was one big storyline.

8 hours ago, Lucius said:

Those duplicates can be heard, sniffed out, show up on radar, etc. You might want a broader Invisibility.

When I added that suggestion to my character notes, the first thing I did was go to the rulebook, which says: "When Desolidified, a character cannot be touched, doesn’t register on Sonar or Radar, and emits no scent. " (5ER 147). If they can't be touched, don't register on sonar or radar and don't emit any scent, that would only leave visibility, wouldn't it? If Desolidified characters "cannot affect the physical world in any way" (5ER 148), that would seem to mean Invisibility to Sound, but even if not, it's explicitly stated that Desolidified characters have no scent and don't register on radar.

19 hours ago, steriaca said:

Sounds like a power for a Jojo's Bizarre Adventure villain.

It's interesting you should say that, because I'm actually in the process of reading Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (currently on Chapter 33).

When I come up with ideas for powers, I do some research to see if anything like it currently exists, and when posters have made suggestions, I've looked to see if there's any precedent among fictional characters. I referenced Jojo's Bizarre Adventure earlier after coming across Stands in my research, and started reading it to find out more about it. So it's funny that you said this now.

The Champions Book of.... lists suggestion for how characters could fit into different genres (which I find cool, since I like to think about how characters could fit into multiple settings), so that would be the character's Stand in a Jojo Bizarre Adventure campaign. While it wasn't deliberate, it's unlikely to be a coincidence that this response came just after I started reading it.

2 hours ago, Lucius said:

That Didn't Happen:  (Total: 80 Active Cost, 65 Real Cost) Extra-Dimensional Movement (Related Group of Dimensions, Single Location), Move from this world to a world where THAT did not happen., Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (50 Active Points) (Real Cost: 50) <b>plus</b> Danger Sense (immediate vicinity, any danger) (30 Active Points); Limited Power Only for use with Trigger for Extradim Move (-1) 11- (Real Cost: 15)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Extra Dimensional Palindromedary

Hmm... I like this idea for when the character reached the ultimate expression of his powers. (And HERO System published characters seem to be written with a base powerset and how to make them more or less powerful.) It's like after sensing what's going to happen, from all the potential pathways the future could branch out to from there, he chooses one in which what he doesn't want to happen "didn't happen." "Alternate timeline" is specifically one of the suggested dimensions, so he's moving the world (switched the tracks, so to speak) down the course of a specific alternate timeline in which the undesired event didn't occur.

11 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

It would be worth you building those duplicates to see if you need 450 points. 

It actually doesn't look like it after starting a new Hero Designer file for it. Doesn't look like it'll take anywhere near that many points. So far I've got:

Though as far as Life Support goes, his consciousness actually wouldn't need anything as far as breathing, food, water, etc., since it's the physical body it inhabits that requires it.

11 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

They are going to be pretty one-dimensional as they are, after all, simply shards of a central consciousness and not going to be doing much beyond a responsive role. 

Which is as it should be, as it's preventive, not causative. There's a reason which Desolidification is a stop sign power. It would be highly likely to abused in the hands of a PC. Even as far as NPCs in the comics, Shadow King is the only one that immediately comes to mind who is Desolidified and has a complete offensive arsenal.

One thing I was curious about, for the fine work modeled with the Fine Manipulation adder on the Telekinesis, like locking a door since TK is "inherently clumsy" (5ER 229), a Duplicate could do any fine work necessary. But since a Desolidified character needs Affects Physical World to interact with physical reality, I was going to apply it to DEX, but HERO Designer says it's actually an Unavailable Advantage for that because it's only for things that affect others. I force added it, but it seems it would be correct to apply Affects Physical World to DEX to do any precision work since you can't actually interact with the physical world without it.

21 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

It all depends on how many duplicates you have.

 

In HERO, each character buys how many actions they get in a 12 second turn (their speed). There is a question in my mind that, even if you have trigger whether your telekinesis would attend to, for example three heroes attacking you on the same segment of a turn, they would, in effect, overload the power.

 

If you had five duplicates hanging around, each with for or five actions each, then it would be very difficult for a team to overload in the same way. Obviously, each duplicate would not always be able to act instantly but it is likely there would always be one with an action available. It would require many more heroes to overload the power and, the more duplicates you have, the more difficult overloading would become.

 

Doc

The reasoning makes sense, and I was looking at it, and it would fit within both the character and power concept.

In comics, Iceman can split his consciousness among ice clones, and Clayface can do the same with clay. JoJo's Bizarre Adventures has Stands, manifestations of psychic energy, which are invisible to anyone except other Stand users but can interact with objects, are intangible, and invulnerable to harm except against other Stands. So there's precedence among other fictional characters, but this specific use would preserve its uniqueness.

Each split consciousness Duplicate would be Mind Linked with himself and each other, so that when he Foresees something, the Duplicates would be able to act on that information. Five is a good starting number, as with him facing forward at 12 o'clock, he could have one at his 10 o'clock, one at his 2 o'clock, one at his 8 o'clock, one at his 4 o'clock, and one at his six. So all directions would be covered, and it would preserve the idea of it covering a radius. All of the Mind Linked Duplicates would provide him with Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees). One wouldn't be able to sneak up on him. If he was confronted with a single individual with superstrength rather than a team of superhumans, he could have more than one of the Duplicates combine to restrain him. And Held Actions could be used to have them respond to a specific occurrence to counterattack.

The only thing I see is that Duplicates have to take a Segment to orient himself, but as I haven't gotten to combat yet, I don't know how that would be. So he couldn't instantly split his consciousness into a Duplicate, but would have to do it before he needed it. But the more I thought about it, the more I saw your point. Thank you. I think I will build it like that. I think I'll try rebuilding it that way for the initial build as well, and try it out.

So in HERO I guess it would be:

Naught Shall Occur Save Whatso I Will:  Duplication (creates 5 450-point Duplicates), Altered Duplicates (100%; +1) (370 Active Points)

So that actually costs less than the AoE TK did, not that price is a concern. It seems 430 Active Points would get 300 duplicates, which is far more than is needed for the power's concept. Then the Invisibility, Desolidification and Mind Link would be listed on the character sheet of the Duplicates.

If you were to do this, I think I would be paying extra for each duplicate to be different from the core character - you could then design them from the ground up.

Altered Duplicates, then?

 It would work better in combat as each duplicate/follower would have their own allocation of actions during a round rather than everything having to work from the main characters actions.

But then wouldn't they be limited to whenever their turn is? Trigger makes something happen whenever the Triggering condition takes place, but characters can only go whenever their turn is, in which case it's possible that nothing's happened yet or that something's already happened, and it's too late to do anything about it. He's able to take on teams because the Trigger activates even when it isn't his turn, which counteracts the fact that he can only make one action to the team's 4-5 or however many members there are. (Of course, this is assuming it works the same way in HERO.)

I'm just trying to understand how it differs from someone who just has a bunch of minions, aside from the invisibility and intangibility.

Is this intended to be a PC or NPC?

Well, it certainly isn't a PC. That should be clear.

Though in my experience, what usually follows is, "Well, if it's an NPC, you don't have to sweat it, just have it do what you want and don't worry about statting it up."

Which defeats the whole purpose of purportedly being able to build "anything you can imagine" if the default answer is, "Don't worry about building it if it's an NPC." In no system one may care to name, does it not list any stats for NPCs in their published material (and most if not all published characters will be NPCs, because it's up to the players to make their characters they're going to play as, but most GMs aren't going to want to build every single character from scratch), saying, "Don't worry about it. Do it how you want."

There is lot going on here, and I think that is not unusual if you are throwing around 4-500 active points on a single power. :-)

 

I was looking at the builds and, while they all make some sense, there is an element of hand-waviness about much of it. I was thinking that it is almost like he has a vast number of slavishly devoted elves flying about ensuring things go right for him. Then I thought, why not build it that way. It gets around the trigger, reset type thing. What if four people act, in the same segment, to foil his plans? Can the teleport act four times in the same segment? Is it possible for a power to be making decisions about what it does?

 

If instead, the build was based around followers, invisible, intangible, representatives of his mind (if they are all mind-linked they can act as if they knew what he was thinking) that flock round him, steadying vases, moving obstacles, blocking doors and restraining hands. They would need affect solid on their STR but there is less stretch to the remit of the power. I think with 450 active points in play you will get enough of them to cover mist eventualities...

 

Doc

Hmm... you're actually the second person to suggest something like this (not on here, of course). Someone else said something similar when I initially built the character.

I'm not sure how it would work combat-wise in HERO, because as I understand it, combat's done differently than what I'm accustomed to. I started with character creation since that's the very first thing you do in any RPG system, so I'm afraid I can't answer, as I don't know how you do combat yet. He has senses that work in conjunction with the power.

Danger Sense (immediate vicinity, any danger, Function as a Sense) 13-

Clairsentience (Spatial Awareness), Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Targeting

Though multiple aspects of his mind would have 360 degree perception and notice any immediate danger in the vicinity.

This might even be a great use for duplication where duplicates are not the same as the core character but shards of consciousness flaking off to deal with foreseen eventualities in the same invisible, intangible, affecting solid world manner....

 

Doc

I like the idea of aspects of his consciousness dealing with things. It would have to be along the lines of representatives of his own mind/aspects of his own consciousness, because he's specifically a contrast to luck controllers whose powers do everything for them.

But how much would this be capable of doing? Because unlike the invisibility power, he does use this power in combat. Lizard Man man leaps at him, it Triggers Naught Shall Occur Save Whatso I Will, and Lizard Man is Grabbed and falls to the ground. TK can be used as a base effect that's just as capable of restraining someone as grabbing a falling vase. How physically strong would the duplicates be? Because he can lift and restrain more with the power than he can physically do himself.