RDU Neil

Don't panic...

Gotham Central is the comic you want... don't be angry!

Hope you can find Issue #1... it's still on the shelf at my LCS. Where do you hail from?

Re: Gotham PD

Originally posted by AGLAR

Gotham PD? I will check that out. I like "Powers". Thanks for the suggestion.

The Book should be called "Gotham PD Blues" It's a cop show, done in comic form, in the DC Universe Gotham City.

Very... VERY good book.

Redshirts...

I love the idea of a game like "Redshirts."

Like a more serious/dramatic version of Paranoia. I think the idea of the game would be "survive long enough to get promoted from the security detail!"

Y'know... this would make an EXCELLENT game to run at a Con.

Re: Sorry!

Originally posted by AGLAR

I killed another topic!

 

 

Can we pretend I didn't send that last post?

I can see it now, Aglar... just like WWII pilots recording their kills, you have stickers on the side of your PC, indicating discussion threads you've sent crashing and burning to the earth.

Don't worry about it. Storn and I game FtF every week, and give each other all kinds of $#!t. We've even had to go our separate ways for weeks or even a year, because we argued so much... both being quite passionate about gaming. This is nuthin'!

I think we'd just said our piece on the subject, that's all.

Though... in a slightly similar vein... are you, or is anyone, reading Gotham Central? This new Batman tie in book focus' very closely on the Gotham PD, and street level reactions to a dangerous superworld around them. Not as good as Bendis' POWERS, but a great read, nonetheless. It shows how low level "realism" (again with the quotes) can add a depth to the drama lost in most superheroics.

We had really been looking forward to Mutant File at the time, because Storn Cook knew it was coming up... was doing the cover in fact... and Genocide was playing a significant role in the campaign. Sweet! We thought. A supplement ripe for use.

God it was bad. I did use some elements... but it was a struggle, and didn't really ease my work load as GM, as I hoped it would.

I still use VIPER to this day, though would love to see the whole thing just updated.

I also liked CotN. As someone said, it was excellent for providing supporting cast that didn't over shadow the PCs. Heck, a main PC ended up marrying Oracle/Karen after a while.

We did used to joke about the claim that the Canadian Sentinels defeated Eurostar, though. We said, "Ok... there must have been 50 members at one point, and the twelve in the book are all that's left alive after the Eurostar fight."

Still, as Liadan (I think) said above, it's easier to ramp up power levels, than work to cut them back, like with the ridiculous Mutant File characters.

Magic is very important in my campaign. It appears quite a bit... and for that reason, I've gone to great lengths to keep it from being "just another SFX."

For a long time, I dissuaded magical characters, because most folks start out with the "Magic is just my excuse to have a list of every power in the book." Rarely did people explore the concept of magic as arcane knowledge, and that it works by different rules than the rest of the universe, and that the use of it should ALWAYS come at a cost. At best, some folks played it up as just another arcane "science" so it had structure to it like "Light powers" or "water powers" have a conceptual structure.

Eventually though, the players began to accept my main "flavah" idea for magic, in that it needed to be something "off"... something "weird"... something "creepy and dangerous" for it to FEEL like magic, as opposed to just another superpower.

Lately, I've come up with an idea that would introduce "magic" as a new type of power set... based on the "mental powers" concept.

The idea is this... mental powers are scary in a supers campaign, because they affect the player in a different way, often to which thay have no or limited defenses. You get great reactions to charcters when facing a mentalist, because they are truly "other."

I want magic to feel the same way. Sure you can use drains and ego attacks and EBs... and give them the SFX "Magic" That should always be an option... but what if you added in a set of powers called Magic Blast... Magic Control... Magic Defense, etc. Just like Ego Blast can only be defended by Mental Defense... the Magic Blast could only be blocked by Magic Defense. This simple construction, which changes nothing of the rules, and is just a matter of building some new powers... gives a fifth dimension to combat. Right now you have Energy, Physical, Mental and whatever the label is for drains/transfers/transforms. If Magic had it's own power set, it would be scary and unique as well, just like Mental powers are.

Mighty Man can change the course of rivers, but needs Brain Boy to defeat the minions of PSI... 'cause the guy has no Mental Defense. That is an important "flavah" element in Champions.

Well, Ultra Gal can beat off alien invasions with one hand behind her back... but against DEMON... well, that is best handled by Lady Dark, Mistress of Secrets... 'casue Ultra Gal can't defend against Magic.

YMMV on this idea... I realize... but for those of you who might want to take magic away from the the "it's just another SFX" concept, which really rankles me, this might be a way.

Re: Coming... Up... For... Air...

Originally posted by Scott Heine

Hi, guys. Yeah, I started to post updated images for the ol' team a bit before New Year's. I was hoping to have them all up and available by now. Unfortunately, I've been absolutely buried at work -- it's all a good thing, but it's leaving me very little free time. I'm hoping things will settle down a bit by the middle of March, and then I can get the rest of the team available. In the meantime, I've posted the pics that were already done at a freebie web host. Here's the link...

 

The first batch of Protector pics...

 

Doctor Wraithe, aka "The Warlock," will be the next one up. The line art is done and inked; just need to scan and color. But don't hold your breath. I'm serious when I say mid-March is the earliest I hope for...

 

Now pardon me while I bury myself under my "in" box once again...

Great pictures, Scott. Thanks for posting.

To Serve & Protect was always one of the best module/supplements ever made.

Thanks again

Are these updated images of the Protectors still available?

Or is that what you were asking?

Love to see them, either way.

Not necessarily...

Originally posted by Monolith

I was not selling Speed short. I was just answer his question as to whether it would be a fair fight between a character who bought extra Speed and a character who bought combat levels to do Rapid Fire attacks. Assuming everything else between the characters is equal, the character with a 4 Speed who Rapid Fires 3 times per phase is going to win over the character with a 6 Speed who does not; or tries to with the -4 OCV.

I hate to start an argument with you... but I can't let this go.

Segment 2, Capt. 6 SPD fires single shot, hits for average damage.

Segment 3, Lady 4 SPD fires Rapid Fire of three shots... but 6 SPD aborts to Dodge, so these three shots are effectively -3 per shot. Likely one shot will hit. Doing average damage, things are equal at this point. (More in Capt. 6 SPD's favor, if he has Martial Dodge.)

Segment 4 aborted by Capt. 6 SPD

Segment 5, no one goes

Segment 6, all other things being equal, Capt. 6 SPD goes first, while Lady 4 SPD is still 1/2 DCV... and Rapid Fires for three at -4. If their CV is 9 or better (10 being average for my campaigns, and we are assuming these two are equal in all other ways) then the 1/2 DCV MORE than gives the advantage to Capt. 6 SPD... and likely all 3 will hit.

Fight to Capt. 6 SPD. Having hit four times in three actions.

Even if Lady 4 SPD aborts to dodge... Capt. 6 SPD will win that race, 'cause he has more actions to burn, and will eventually have this same advantage.

Again... I'm not saying the fight is guaranteed, one way or another... but I'd really give the nod to the higher SPD character, in an otherwise equal fight.

I also had sub-organizations dealing with metahumans, for most other Real Life agencies.

The FBI had the Special Bureau.

The CIA had the Cabinet.

The US Army had SPAD (I think this was in a supplement.)

The US Air Force utilized those armor suit guys from Techno-Enemies... or whatever that supplement was with Master Control.

Heck, even made up agencies like UNTIL had sub-agencies.

UNITE is the superhero branch of UNTIL, with a hero representing each of the UN member nations (if the country has one and wishes them to join. The US refuses to participate.)

There is also Project: Sanction... which is the wetworks/black ops division of UNTIL. The Darkhawks (stealth armor agents) are part of Project: Sanction.

These subgroups, I find, are great for giving the large, bland bureacracies a real personality.

I'd also suggest not using Hit Location in a superhero game, 'cause there is nothing more frustrating than winding up a haymaker or a pushed energy blast... and hitting the "hand" or "Foot" and doing no damage.

For called shots, it's a good reference, but as Mr. Vimes said, you have to do a lot of GM adjudicating in a supers game, 'cause often a metahuman doesn't have the same vulnerabilities as a norm.

Originally posted by Monolith

The character who Rapid Fires has the advantage over the character with the higher Speed. A 12d6 attack Rapid Fired 3 times is only -4 per hit, so if you have 4 levels with the attack it all balances out. That 12d6 attack does 42 STUN and 12 BODY per hit (on average). If the targer has a 25 DEF he will take 51 points of STUN from the attacks. All of that done in one phase over the three phases it would take a high Speed character to do the same thing.

 

Rapid Fire and Sweep need to be monitored by the GM, but when a character does them the GM should have other villains attack the character due to the fact that they can see he is off balance from the RF attack (the attacker will be at half DCV). Knowing he will be attacked balances the desire to do the attack in the player's mind.

Or you can look at it as...

Five Speed character with +4 vs. Rapid Fire can Rapid Fire Three Shots, Five times. at full OCV

Eight Speed character with no level, can Rapid Fire EIGHT TIMES, though at a -4 each time. Plus, they can choose to do other things on their actions.

Eight speed is infinitely more flexible than level with Rapid Fire, and only if your game is all about two characters simply blasting at each other like tanks until one falls, will levels be "more powerful" than Speed.

Heck... the high Speed character can use those extra actions to dodge... attack at more opportune moments... like off balance foes as mentioned above.

Don't sell Speed short. You just have to be tactical, rather than mathematical, about combat.

Superheroic...

If you want any chance for the "We are best of the best" feel that most HK action has.

All characters should have NCM, without getting extra points for it, to limit REALLY high stats... but the PCs should have more points to build their characters.

I'd also suggest that PCs be encouraged to buy +3 or +4 DCV vs. ranged attacks... three point levels.

This is the easiest way to reflect the fact that they are constantly diving and firing and rolling and bullets are whizzing past them, as they manage to hit the mooks much more easily.

Also, you want to encourage the need to fire LOTS of bullets at every target. Give bonus for extra shots fired, or something, 'cause it is too easy in Hero to "make every shot count" and constantly be counting your ammo. IMO, for the proper HK feel... bullets should fly, clips should empty and reloading on the run is a very important skill.

BIG QUESTION...

Depending on folks moods, you'll get a LOT of different answers here.

The most contentious is the Stun Multiple for Killing Attacks. Some folks like it, as is... but many of us find it very unbalancing. I'd argue that the single most unbalanced power in Hero is a KA of 4d6 or more, using the Stun Multiple.

The reason is, that you play what we call the "stun lottery." Using a KA, you can, 33% of the time, get a VERY high stun multiple on your attack. It is a side effect of a power that was not intended to be a stunning attack, but instead actually lethal in nature.

Many of folks on these boards have a ton of options for changing the Stun Multiple. Mine is very simple. Use a flat 3x multiple. Roll the body, multiply by 3 for stun amount. This is slightly below average (3.5 being the median on a 6 sided die) but is very effective. If the amount of body is high, indicating a solid hit, the stun is high... if the body is low, the stun is low, indicating a glancing shot. Very simple, very elegant. Others propose a flat 2x multiple... which can also work well.

There are a ton of house rules and optional combat rules out there... so be prepared for a lot of responses.

Even if...

Even if your players are fractious... I think this would be an awesome way for them to learn some teamwork.

I might even go as far as to say, "Each player gets a turn in the command seat." This works well in my game, where I've dumped the Speed Chart for an initiative system. Each "round" is much shorter, but everyone gets at least one action. (Speed adds to initiative roll, to determine who goes first, and high enough totals, only possible with high enough SPD stats, can get extra actions). This would have the person in charge switching, giving orders, and see how people complied.

Hmmm... I like it. I think I have a reason to steal it, as well.

Thanks:D

Like many of you, I stole and modified most of the agencies from published sources.

The primary group I did come up with was Paradigm. This was a conglomerate of political, social, and industry leaders who had existed over the centuries as a kind of "benevolent Star Chamber." They were dedicated to the "better world" concept, and had been created centuries ago by the immortal Taurus (From Zodiac Conspiracy) based on the following concept...

"The gods exist and they are fickle and treacherous, and mortals must strive and succeed without them." In the late 19th and into the 20th century, Paradigm began to take on the modern trappings of a truly global organization, and was dedicated to the advancement of all people, human & metahuman, working together toward the future.

They were introduced, gradually, to the PC heroes, as the people behind the funding of their bases and equipment. The folks on the cutting edge of technology, trying to keep it from getting out of hand and destroying the world.

One of their sub groups, the Jade Organization, was my "deus ex machina" to explain why super-tech hadn't drastically changed the world. The group was dedicated to destroying or controlling all the "wild inventions" and such that could possibly destabilize the world. This group kind of splintered from Paradigm, becoming more fanatical about their role, and slipping toward the dark side.

Paradigm, being vast and loosly organized, had lots of smaller off shoots, as well. One was a group of "best of the best agents" who were mercenary types, non-super powered for the most part, who did dirty deeds type work against metahumans who got out of control. They were called "The Jannissaries" and were my attempt at the players playing "agents in a super world" kind of game.

Paradigm has always been an interesting aspect of the RDU, since it is this large, hidden organization, which is actually beneficial to the world in many ways, but can clearly go wrong, or slip into the gray areas, very easily. It provided an alternate to UNTIL, which was the classic, government/UN affiliated SHIELD like organization. Both would oppose groups like VIPER and super villains, but in very different ways.

Originally posted by Steve Long

While I'm at it, I'll spin straw into gold, too.

 

Seriously, some powers simply aren't balanced for game purposes, and really can't be made balanced without ruining them. What works in a comic book, where the writer controls what the main characters do, doesn't always work in a game (where the "head writer," the GM, has virtually no control over what the main characters, the PCs, do). I definitely expect the book will have a "Rogue Touch" sort of power, at least insofar as stealing powers, but the aim is going to be to simulate a particular ability properly, not to "balance" it at the expense of creating what I want to present.

 

In my experience, the best way to "balance" that sort of power is to only allow a player mature enough to use it properly to build a character with it. I've gamed with people who I wouldn't hesitate to let have this power, because they'd only use it once every few games (at most) and only when it was truly "in character" to do so. I've gamed with other people who I wouldn't let have this power if they paid me, because they'd use it every chance they got in complete defiance of common sense or genre conventions.

 

OK, minor digression over. Back to work on Force Powers. Please keep the suggestions and ideas coming!

Seriously, Steve... this kind of commentary... and it doesn't even have to be any more fleshed out than a couple paragraphs like this... is perfect for the Powers sourcebook, as well. A little "Author's Note" and not a whole essay, that your goal is to "reflect a power accurately" but not necessarily "balanced" for game play.

I like that, and would encourage such commentary in the book itself.

I don't have it in me to discuss every aspect of the character, but I'll start with the stats... I find how different groups use stats to be very interesting. In my game, Lei would be too low, if this was superhero world, but about right if it was a Wild Martial Arts world... and he was considered "best of the best."

At 350 points (I only use 300 as my starting level for RDU) I'd be comfortable with Lei as follows...

Lei Wulong

Val Char Cost

15 STR

26 DEX

23 CON

12 BODY

13 INT

17 EGO

15 PRE

14 COM

8 PD

8 ED

6 SPD

10 REC

40 END

45 STUN

Slightly higher DEX... better CON ('cause being CON stunned just ends the fight for a Martial Artist) LOWER PD and ED (I alwas have a tough time justifying anything abouve 8-10 for heroes who are NOT Super) but higher REC and STUN.

I would also give him 3 more levels in DCV to reflect Drunken Style fighting... and he would have 50% Damage Reduction, physical resistant, non-persistent, activation roll, to reflect constantly rolling with punches, and just getting "winged" if shot at, etc.

Granted, I'm building him to run with supers, rather than a more street level campaign, in doing this.

I do agree he'd have tons of martial maneuvers as you wrote.

The Mechanic...

I actually ran a PBeM game for just Storn, that took place in my superhero world, but was very, very low level guns and crime and death. Storn had the ex-sniper type who'd gotten out of the life, retired in Baja California... until a local crime lord "pulled him back in!"

It worked really well, and aside from Storn's character being "best of the best" at a human level, there was only one paranormal factor in the game, and that was an opposing gunman, the telekinetik gun guy from one of the 4th Edtion supplements, also called the Mechanic. It was a fun adventure, with some John Woo moments and scary "run or die" moments as well. It actually had a complete story, beginning middle end, as well.

I would note that I've completed EVERY PBeM game I've ever started (as GM), except for the current one. They've all come to adventure/storyline conclusions, except for the latest, which fell apart over the past holiday season.

SWEET!

I thought this thread had died... take a couple days off, and BOOM lots of great comments.

So many things that folks have written here, I've said... verbatim... in gaming discussion before. The issues about "fearing combat" and "role playing improves when combat is scary" are arguments I've made in the past.

I also still state that for any ACTION based games, it is hard to justify the weekly shoot-em-ups in a "realistic" game... even though most of us enjoy combat in our games (assumption, yes, I know.)

Storn just helped make my point. Not that I don't want to play or run a D.I. level adventure... but the group needs to be in the mood for it... and not expect the storyline or their character to last forever.

I've not actually KILLED as many PCs in my "realistic" games, as the players have retired them. They played a news photographer caught up in a gang war... and went to the hospital with a bullet in their leg, and said, "Ok... I'm done!" The player made the character, enjoyed the character, and retired the character in one night.

I also realize Storn's issue of "you can't change the world TOO much, or it isn't the real world, anymore." I'd disagree that derailing a train changes the world so drastically as it becomes unrecognizable. Killing the president, well... yes. I also agree that in NO way would I link my D.I. world with my Champions world. Huh uh. Completely separate. I've always kept those worlds separate.

In the end, I enjoy the role playing inspired by low level "realistic" games. The tension in the air during combat is palpable. Palms sweat, every die roll is agonizing. Heroics become amazing, small actions are monumental, sacrifice is meaningful. I've seen players role play their characters into hiding in a corner, waiting for the shooting to stop... while others lost their heads and got themselves killed... and still others stepped up and made hard decisions and salvaged a small win in an otherwise horrific situation. Amazingly funny and even poignant dialogue can come out between two PCs pinned down behind a wall by a hail of bullets. They start to appreciate the life of their character even more... and if they survive... role playing out the denouments... the moments following the stark terror and exhiliration, are truly cathartic, in my experience. The moments are laughed and joked about... remembered with fondness... in a way other adventures are not.

It is intense... and not, IMO, applicable for a weekly, ever week weekly, game... but occassionally... it's brilliant.

Be careful what you ask for, Storn!

This is a super world...

... so how about a "super" target. A private club specializing in the occult, and the villains want a powerful artifact from there.

A "STAR Labs" type location, where proto-vibranium or a new suit of battle armor is being produced.

Want it more realistic... how about hitting another criminal organization. Hitting a drug deal to get the money. Hitting a weapons buy for the money and the guns.

This third location could also play the part of "clue" to give the heroes a chance to home in on the long term goals of the villains... not just stop a random crime.

YMMV

Nice..

Interesting new take on the dreyogg, Storn. Always glad to get a preview of what will be kicking my @$$ on Thursday!

Re: New Campaign PC Issues

Originally posted by JohnTaber

Hi Gents,

 

I am starting a new Standard Super Heroic (350 pts) four color Champions campaign with 4 players. My group is made up of mostly experienced Hero gamers but they have never played FREd. I ended up with two PC that are almost agents without too many off the wall things and two PC that are true 4 color hero types but both have questionable rule constructs. Keep reading. I ran into three interesting but somewhat unrelated issues...

 

Issue #1 - The two agent level characters have powers but are Dex 20 SPD 4 types. One has Ego powers but the other does not. The other two PC are speed 6 and 7. I'm worried that these guys are too underpowered. Should I carry on? Should I reel in the higher powered PC a bit?

 

Issue #2 - One of the PC is a martial artist. Is it me or is it really cheap to buy martial artists at 350 points? His PC seems MUCH grosser than the others?

 

Issue #3 - The two more powerful PC have defensive EC. BOTH have an EC at 10 points full of defenses (Power Defense, Flash Defense, Mental Defense, PD, ED, Damage Resistence, etc). One also has an EC with movement powers AND an EC with Danger Sense, Spacial Awareness, and DCV levels. The special effects for these EC are actually ok. Should I let it go and see how it plays out?

 

Whaddya think guys? Suggestions?

1. If you are using the Speed Chart as written, the 4 SPD guys will be twiddling their thumbs and completely outclassed. If this is a super world, I'd encourage them to be 5 SPDs at least. (If interested, I have a very different way of using SPD that is simple and works using initiative. Low speeds and high speeds work much better together in my system. If you want to look into that, just send me a personal message.)

2. Yes, I agree that martial artists (especially mini-brick martial artists) are extremely broken in FReD. I'm running an all martial arts campaign right now, and it is VERY quickly spiraling into HUGE amounts of damage. Martial arts with DCs with STR with Hand Attacks, all backed by good DEX and SPD stats... very, very combat effective.

3. As Monolith said, those powers are not legal in an EC. Despite my hatred of ECs in general (I think they are the most abused framework in the game) they are sometimes useful. Less so, these days, when you get 350 starting points in most games. I would, personally, suggest trying to pitch ECs from your game all together... just to see how it goes... 'cause it might bring some balance to your predicament.

YMMV

Combat Sense

Blind Fighting

Find Weakness

Analyze Style

These four would be talents/skills that I would think are essential to the supertrained but still human, martial artist. (I call these types of characters "adepts" in my game. They don't test as superhuman, but can perform superhuman acts... like superleap... very high dex and speed, etc.)

Good luck. I'm running an all martial arts sub-campaign in my world, right now. It's a lot of fun to see how many martial artists can distinguish themselves through SFX, skills and powers. (This level of martial arts has chi blasts, fire fists, etc., so it is really superhero level.)