Dust Raven

Originally posted by Gary

Probably no one would allow it, but I've seen people allow 4th edition ECs with physical DR and energy DR separate, and with physical absorption and energy absorption separate.

With DR and Absorption, it's a 50/50 toss up for me. It depends on the SFX and the concept. But then again, the book specifically makes you must buy Physical seperate from Energy in the first place. Actually have to buy it twice, once for each (if you want both). With FF to don't.

Originally posted by Gary

In a superheroic game, I've never found the NND ability of a martial artist to be terribly effective. Anyone with high enough defenses where a NND would be more effective than a Strike maneuver, probably has the defenses to the NND maneuver in the first place.

 

How would things change when more powers and characteristics are bought? The brick could simply mimic all of the MA's purchases and still have the inherent advantages of figured characteristics and lift.

I still disagree. We'd just have to trade games for a while, roll each other's dice for a mile or something. Then again...the only difference between a brick and a martial artist IMO is that one uses DCV and SPD for defenses and one uses PD/ED. Those balance out, more or less.

Re: Back on track?

Originally posted by badger3k

Ignoring most of the min/max attempts, here's a continuiation of my last post (don't run )!

 

Kinetik - champs universe.

 

Given that, according to Steve, an EC-character can't use, for example, two attack powers. It's in the questions forum, don't know how to link it, so I can't, sorry. Why does Kinetik have the following EC?

 

15 Speedster Tricks: Elemental Control, 30-point powers

 

15 1) Fast Work: Change Environment 8" radius, varying effect (+1/2)

12 2) Protective Aura: Force Field (8 PD/12 ED), Reduced End (0 END; +1/2)

Only when moving (-1/4)

15 3) Vibro-grip: HKA 1d6 (1d6+1 with STR), Reduced END (0 END; +1/2),

Penetrating (+1/2)

9 4) Supersonic Finger Snap: EB 3d6, NND (defense is Life Support (safe

environment: High Pressure) or armored head-covering; +1), No Range

(-1/2), Gestures (must hold hand near target's ear; -1/4)

10 5) Dizzying Spin: Drain DEX 3d6, requires a DEX roll (-1/2)

 

Since he can't do slots 3,4, and 5 in one phase (I'd argue 1 in that as well, but that can be debated), apparently the justification is that it can all be drained at once. OK, that can work, but is it efficient (i.e. does it save points?)

 

Why couldn't you? I see no reason for it. All are hand to hand and require the same type of attack roll.

Originally posted by prestidigitator

The "DCV Modifiers" chart on 5e, pg 245 lists two distinct entries: "Stunned" and "Recovering from being Stunned." Both of these conditions impose 1/2 DCV and 1/2 Hit Location modifiers. Since they were listed seperately, I figured they must be two different states, and the only two states I could think of that made sense for this were:

1. character is hit, and hasn't yet come to his/her lost action--the one which now must be used to recover from being stunned--and
2. character has used the Phase to recover from being stunned instead of acting normally, but has not reached another (normal) Phase (i.e. (s)he is still "recovering").

I guess Steve's answer rules out this interpretation, so I now have no idea why both of these conditions are listed in the chart.

Oh that....mmm....Nothing in the FAQ....nothing in the Errata either...most strange.

Oh well....when in doubt always trust the text, never a table. If my guess is correct, "Recovering From Being Stunned" and "Stunned" are the same thing, and both stop once the character recovers, on his DEX, when next he would have an action. Not between then and when he actuall acts next.

[EDIT] Just checked the Rules Questions Board. Guess that answers it for both of us. You had me scratching my head for a while there .

Originally posted by prestidigitator

... I would have the defense kick in if it is a Killing Attack which rolls a 6 (x5) for the Stun Multiple--maybe a 5=x4 too, if vitals are protected--or if a Hit Location is rolled or targeted.

At the KA rolls a 5-6 (a x4 or x5 STUN Multiplier), it would be a -1 1/2 LImitation (looses 2/3 of it's effectiveness). For normal damage, if the BODY total was 1.5x the number of dice rolled it would kick in. The SFX would just be he got hit where the armor protected and caused less damage.

Yes...does this simply frighten the target, harm him, what?

If it's damage you're after, I'd go with Lord Liaden's suggestion of a Limited Ego Attack. You might also want to consider Reduced By Range to simulate the requirement of "nearness" but not quite 0 Range.

If it only scares people, say to hold them still, you can just buy up PRE with the OIF and Fear Only Lims, possible reduced by range as well.

Originally posted by Jeff

It's not to do with the game mechanics - I think other posters have those covered well - but tapping the nexus of energies of a Demonlair for a magical boost seems altogether too much like asking Dr. Destroyer for some powered armor design help or Teleios for a boost to your physique or mental prowess. Great fun for a diabolical GM, mind you - but Asking For It on the part of the players.

"Asking For It" they most certainly are. They are paying for the ability with Disadvantage points such as Watched by Demon and Haunted on the Base. Possibly Unluck as well. It depends on how much the Power costs.

I want to use Succor (a form of Aid) because it is already Constant and provides a steady effect...even more steady if I use Standard Effect (3 points per d6; I was looking at 5d6 actually). Not much of a boost unless you are right on top of the hex, or very close to it.

The group I GM for has recently taken over a Demonlair. They want it to be some sort of power nexus that increases their mystical abilities while they are in it. Here's how it's supposed to work:

There a point (a hex) in the base that eminates mystic energy; a Nexus of Power. Being near the Nexus boosts magic Powers. The closer you are, the bigger the boost.

I figure I can write it up using Succor with Standard Effect and Explosion. 0 END, Persistant would be a must, of course. Now I'm not to sure how Powers like this react in a Base. From what I understand, Attack Powers can be launched from anyplace within a Base. This would only have a single hex where it originates, and would have no range from that point.

Would I use Partial Coverage and No Range? Partial Coverage seems wrong somehow though. What am I missing?

Originally posted by Gary

15 EC force tendrils

15 24/0 force field 1/2 end

15 0/24 force field 1/2 end

Disregarding everything else....is there anyone who actually allows this construct? I'll allow for Multipowers to give the character the ability to shift points between PD and ED....but all this goes is cut the cost in half.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Well, I don't use hit locatioons in Supers, so that helps a bit.

 

Let's flesh this guy out. 210 points spent so far.

 

Let's buy +13 CON for 26

+15 PRE for 15

17 REC, 52 STUN, 46 END s/b OK

 

That makes 251 points. 99 left (and we haven't even discussed OIHID yet...)

 

+13 PD/+17 ED = 25 DEF each; and 15/15 resistant - that's 45

 

1 pt Regeneration for 8 (hey, someone MIGHT hit him!)

1/2 END STR for 15.

We can half leap 6" and hit every phase for 24 END a turn, so we last over a minute at full steam

 

31 points left for fine tuning. Let's consider:

 

- Radar sense, maybe; that's 17

- Scrap the PD/ED for a Multipower with a 45 pool, +30 PD Force Field 0 END and +30 ED Force Field 0 END, both multi slots - an extra 12 points, but now we can shift defenses at will

 

That leaves 2 points to boost Comeliness to 14.

 

No frameworks at all. No limitations at all. 350 points. Looks pretty effective. Who'd allow the character?

 

Excellent example, dug... Should we put it all IIF only in hero ID and get 70 points back to spend on some fluff powers? Maybe some Mental, Power and Flash Defense and Lack of Weakness?

I'd allow it if those remaining 31 points were spend on skills, preferably of the background variety. I would also require some sort of explained concept and a character background. But that's just me.

Of course....I'd also make sure all my puny Viper Agents were armed with their trusty Flash Grenades and Nerve Gas...

Originally posted by Gary

Nope, not even close. Let's take an example:

 

Brick pays 60 pts for +50 str and 10 pts martial arts.

 

Martial Artist pays 60 pts for +10 str, +8 DC, +8 PD, and the same 10 pts of martial arts maneuvers.

 

For the same cost, both do the same base damage and have the same defenses and same maneuvers.

 

However, the brick gets +8 rec, +20 stun, +8" leap, X256 lifting capacity and thus free occasional area effects with objects, and +20 casual str vs weak entangles and grabs.

 

The MA's advantages are 2 end vs 6, and the option to buy flash, nnd, or KA martial maneuvers where his DC's are better compared to the brick's str.

 

Now the brick could sell back either 15 stun, or 8" leap and 7 stun and purchase 1/2 end on 60 str for 15 pts.

 

Now the comparison is +8 rec, +5 stun and +8" leap or +13 stun, X256 lift, and +20 casual str.

 

The MA now pays 2 end vs 3. The brick's +8 Rec more than compensates for this. And the rest of the brick's bennies is far greater than the option of buying flash, nnd, or KA martial maneuvers.

 

Without GM imposed limits, the brick is far superior.

From that point of view, you are right. Things change when you buy more Powers and Characteristics though. And those NND Maneuvers can be just the thing you need against a brick. I thought differently once and built an Uberbrick with max defenses and STR and then used the extra points I "saved" and bought up SPD and DEX. He still gets creamed just as often as he wins in a one on one fight against any character with the same number of points spent in combat abilities.

I would definately recomend using Shapeshift then. If you insist on using Desol....I think it would be a -1 at most. You are getting to move through things and attack. I would almost suggest using a weird form of Tunneling without leaving a tunnel behind, but doesn't seem to mesh with your concept.

Originally posted by Gary

As an example, I refer you to the brick and martial artist who pay the exact same number of points but the brick gets a lot more out of it. In practice most GM's enforce dex/spd limits on bricks, but otherwise there would be no game mechanic reason to play a martial artist. It's a lot more efficient to play a brick with base martial arts.

I disagree here. The pros and cons aren't all obvious, but then about balance out between Martial Artists and Bricks. The key difference is that Bricks are strong...and Martial Artists aren't, but do the same damage for less END cost. Bricks can lift and throw more, Martial Artists don't tire out as easily.

Originally posted by Farkling

I don't remember the Champions Genre Book covering Stat Bloat. I'll have to find it and read it again. (Obviously I don't need it for much.)

 

Bats with an INT of 50 ?? He's got a 19- with every INT based skill right out of the box? Who needs superpowers...Bats can now pick a lock in under a second without breaking stride...and has a 25% chance to sneak in broad daylight? (an impossible task)...not in my book.

Since when were Lockpicking and Stealth Intellect Skills?

Originally posted by Jeff

As far as that goes, it's sounding like KS's, Deduction, INT, and PER roll bonuses - just in vast quantities. That's particularly fitting since you'd want those for Batman quite apart from anything to do with picking up danger.

Deduction, KS: Joker, various KS's and/or SC's - all things you can't model Bats without already. I can't see this as an example of Danger Sense at all, much less a good example that he's got to have it. (I'm not married to the notion he can't - I just think he's the world's best candidate for getting away without it on account of quite a bit else.)

A good example of Deduction at work, possibly with complementary rolls of Tactics and KS: Thugs.

Can't exactly tell you you're feeling wrong there, but I can say it's not a vibe I get. Deduction and KS: Superman (ya, he's got that too - he knows the man) would lead to an expectation; a PER roll would recognize the voice.

 

I can't see this as simply the result of information he's not in danger, either. "Not in danger" plus "someone's here" doesn't get you to "it's just Supes" - not without things like Deduction and PER rolls on the part of the character or canny inference on the part of the player. And, alas, we can't model Batman saying he must only be played by canny players although that'd probably be better than 1000 points in skills and talents to get him right.

Funny thing - in a heroic game, you could never afford the vast wealth of skills and PER roll bonuses that would account for his ability plausibly to get away without buying Danger Sense.

 

For Batman, I think Danger Sense is a bit of a cheat or a temptation to be controlled, since it may lead you to model the character without all the skills he should have and an awareness of their full application.

He's got the Really Popular Character Perk for that.

I think he's have all of it. As you say..he has to have Deduction, INT, KS galore and all that, all at high level. But there are something things that skills don't cover, and then a cheep Danger Sense is needed (I say "cheep" because it will cost, at most 30 points, far less then what he's spending in all of the bonuses and skill levels).

Originally posted by prestidigitator

This is a good point. I tend to think that Powers are pretty "superhuman," though, whereas boosted Skills and Per rolls are just "exceptional;" anyone could do it, just not nearly so well. Everyone is allowed Per rolls to avoid being surprised (subject to the GM, of course), so there is no reason to think Batman has to have Danger Sense, necessarily. I'm not saying it couldn't be that; I just don't think that's the way I'd buy it.

 

I would say Batman had Danger Sense if he were aware in a situation where there was clearly no way normal senses could warn of a problem (invisible attacker--to sight, hearing, and without olfactory Distinctive Features--perhaps). I can't really think that I've seen Batman react outstandingly in that kind of situation. Now Spiderman obviously has a supernatural ability (this could just be the Special Effects of his +10 Per, but somehow that just doesn't sit right). Although I can't think of specific instances, I am also pretty sure his power warns him about things normal people just wouldn't be able to notice, no matter how observent.

I wouldn't exactly call Batman a "normal person" in any sense of the term. He's effectively reached inhuman levels of skill and aptitude through extensive training and practice.

I would say it's just a -1 LIm. It boils down to "Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects" which is -1/2 and "Only At Non Combat Velocities" which is around a -1/2.

What are you defining as the SFX that still affects him? I usually use AOE/Explosion Attacks as a default when dealing with speedsters.

I agree with the -1 Lim suggestion.

Would the character be able to attack while Amorphic? I'm thinking not, because he could still reach through small holes and cracks while attacking and remain protected using his Power (indirectly..but still protected).

I did something like this using Shape Shift once. It was quite a bit more expensive than the Desol option....but it allowed him to attack while squeezing through bars and under doors without tweaking the rules.

Originally posted by prestidigitator

Hmm. That's pretty cool. Maybe I'll try this. I would change it pretty drastically for Heroic games, but it sounds good for Superheros. I'm not sure about basing the amount on Ego, though, since your Ego roll is already what you use to boost it....

It's definately for Superheroic games.....I'd use the standard rules for Pushing for Heroic. I based it on EGO because I thought it made sense. Though I'm thinking of just changing it back to a flat 10 points. It doesn't really matter much anyway, my players rarely push so it hasn't been playtested much.

Originally posted by prestidigitator

From the Skills FAQ:

Well damn....that sucks!

Originally posted by Farkling

Duplication is DEFINITELY the wrong approach...

It's a perfectly valid approach. Might not apply here, but I still don't know the nature of the robot or it's relationship with the brain, so maybe it can.

Using a vehicle never occured to me. I don't know why....maybe I was tired last night. Good idea and probably better than Duplication.

Originally posted by TheFool1972

What I do want, is to understand the point valuing system better. Let's get right down to it: If not having usable legs is worth 20, then why would being a quad not be worth 40-50. I can even understand that a "normal" could only get 25 by the rules, but put that aside for the moment. The legless person could use a wheelchair. In fact, it had better be assumed. Why would the BIAB character have to lose out because he has a robot battle suit? Lets use a normal character for example. Would you penalize that same character for choosing to have low stats in physical groups and then buy a power suit?

The normal guy certainly would not per penalized. Nor would he be rewarded with more points from a Disad either. Like Oddhat and cutsleeve have said, it's based on the overall effect. Of course, you can nit pick Disads...buying both No Hands or Arms, and Unable To Walk. Of course, the value of the Disads would still depend upon how often they apply. They dont apply when he's in his robot body, only when he's outside it.

Originally posted by Farkling

I think the PSL's are a good approach to the concept, and would use that approach myself...

But I have to join pres in quibbling on the price structure. I think they have to be bought for a specific thing as stated.

 

+2 Interaction PSL's with Cultural Penalties, Social skills

+2 Interaction PSL's with Race Penalties, Social skills

+2 Interaction PSL's with Background Penalties, Social skills

If Social skills is a tight group...it becomes 12 points. Far more reasonable to me...and in line with Raven's estimate.

This would work just as well too. Actually, I'm unaware of whatever the penalties would be in any situation. I just prefer to group them together because, individually, they aren't often significent penalties.

Originally posted by prestidigitator

I don't think this is the way PSLs work, dude. They go the other way. They apply to a specific penalty, and increase in value based on when they apply. That means they aren't "+1 vs. Interaction penalties due to...," but rather, "+1 vs. penalties due to having the wrong culture, all interaction rolls." These would probably be 2-point PSLs, because they wouldn't apply to, say, Knowlege Skills and cultural PSs, but you'd have to have them for each specific penalty you are trying to negate.

 

Take Range Levels as an example. They aren't "+1 with bows, only to negate penalties due to range," which could logically be improved to, "+1 with bows, only to negate penalties." They are, "+1 to negate range penalties, with bows," which can be improved to, "+1 to negate range penalties."

Semantics. There is no difference in how we do it...only in how we write it down. The end result is the same. Wether they cost 2 or 3 points would be the decision of the GM. I'd say 3 because they would apply in any situation, not a limited cireumstance.

I don't think a Saving Throw Limitation is worth nearly that much. It shouldn't be worth any more (or much more) than the standard Requires Skill Roll Lim. Does it really matter who rolls the dice? The dice don't care..they'll roll what they do no matter who rolls them.