Haerandir

Re: Experience and multiform

The issue that was presented was that if he does this' date=' since he is having to spend xp on his multiform he has less xp to spend on other aspects of his character, which over time can make him "less powerful" than other heros... [/quote']

 

I hear this a lot, both on the boards and around the table. Your answer is the correct one. Multiform is not a character that earns XP. Multiform is a Power that is bought by a player in order to realize their character concept. If the player doesn't think the Power is valuable or worthwhile, why buy it? Sometimes you have to make hard choices when you're spending your xps. If you want to remain true to your character concept, you may 'need' to buy a Skill or a Perk or a few more meters of Flight instead of just upping your Lightning Blast by 1d6. The same logic applies to Multiform. In the end, it's a utility/flexibility power.

 

Honestly, this is the point at which the GM and player both need to ask themselves, "Is Multiform really the right Power for this character concept?" If the player feels like they 'have' to spend xp to keep the Multiform current with the Base form (either by buying matching Skills & Powers, or just keeping them at equivalent point totals and combat effectiveness), then they probably shouldn't be using Multiform at all. Multiform is intended for characters where there is a near-total re-write of the character between forms. If Bruce Banner learns to play the flute, the Hulk doesn't necessarily have to buy PS: Flautist. (HULK NO PLAY WOODWINDS! HULK SMASH PUNY FLUTE!) If Billy Batson takes up the saxophone, however, Captain Marvel will, too. The Hulk is well-served by Multiform, but there's a strong case that Captain Marvel is built by taking OIHID Limitations on all of his Powers.

Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgeteer or something else?

I believe I can categorically state that Batman is not a jelly donut. After that things get a little fuzzy.

I've never understood this fascination with debating whether an existing character fits into one archetype or another. As far as I can tell, the inclusion of a list of 'superhero archetypes' in Champions was never intended to create an overarching taxonomy of every possible superheroic character. It's just a list of suggestions for players having trouble coming up with a character concept. This is why there are separate 'archetypes' for character concepts that clearly overlap with other 'archetypes', like Gadgeteer/Power Armor or Weaponmaster/Martial Artist. Mystic and Patriot were particularly frustrating, because they basically boiled down to, 'buy a bunch of powers and call it magic' and 'buy a bunch of skills and powers, then wear a snazzy costume'. If they had truly tried to cover all the bases, they'd have either come up with a shorter list of hopelessly broad archetypes (Ranged Combatant! Puncher! Guy With Powers That Don't Neccessarily Do Damage!) or a list so long it would have to have been it's own book, and still would've been incomplete.

Champions 6th attempted to clarify things by creating a separate category of 'Meta-Archetypes' and including more thematic suggestions like 'Detective' and 'Cosmic'. And they've got a nice little text box at the end of that chapter reminding you that 'Archetypes aren't supposed to be straitjackets; they're intended as inspiration and guidance only.'

Still, people keep asking, 'Is Batman a Gadgeteer or a Martial Artist?' or 'Is Superman a Brick or an Energy Projector?' 'Is Psylocke a Martial Artist or a Mentalist?' 'Is Spider-man a Martial Artist?' The answer is always, always, always going to wind up being 'Yes, but also no, and something else besides.' So why even ask?

Is Batman a Gadgeteer? He uses lots of different, custom-built devices to accomplish a variety of tasks, so sure. Is he a Weaponmaster? Well, he specializes in a particular, unique weapon (the Batarang), so yeah, that too. Is he a Martial Artist? Check. Can we find a way to define him as a Speedster? He kinda-sorta does have some wacky movement powers, like a grapple-gun, glider cape, acrobatics, assorted vehicles and that whole 'disappearing when you glance away' schtick, so why not? Who cares? Let's call him a Metamorph, too! He uses disguises and alternate identities sometimes. Matches Malone FTW!

Batman is Batman, and he does Batman things. As far as character design goes, your guideline is that he can do the things Batman can do, and not the things Batman can't do. If you find a useful power suggestion in a list titled 'Mentalist Powers', go ahead and use it. If you already know what kind of character you're trying to build, then archetypes are moot.

Re: Solution to Multipowers within VPPs.

Multiform in a Mulitpower slot.

The last time I suggested a character with this build to my GM, he just glared at me.

Re: Immigration into the USA - legal, or making illegal legal

This post on Law and the Multiverse may prove helpful: http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2010/12/22/superheros-and-immigration-status/

Re: Quote of the Week from my gaming group...

 

Hyneman OOC : I know - he could be the sober and rational Scully to your semi-deranged Mulder

Rondale : *outraged* But I AM the rational one, compared to McGinty!

Hyneman OOC : *shrugs* It's turtles all the way down.[/indent]

No, no, no. McGinty is the ASM... The Alcohol-Swilling Man.

Re: Quote of the Week from my gaming group...

At tonight's retro-D&D-module game (first outing):

Joey (OOC): "Death is sort of like a pinata which contains fortune and glory."

Re: Magical Knight

I don't think a weapon tie would negate the OAF... It's still significantly easier to remove than an OIF. And the 'weapon tie' power would also have a Focus limitation, meaning that someone could attempt to cut the cord, for instance.

Re: Encounter Balance

One thing that I found helpful in my last campaign was to design layered scenarios... Rather than just have the heroes show up to find all the villains I'd prepared for that session standing around in a group, they would come across a crime in progress, with some opponents ready and waiting to fight, and others off in another room or down the street executing some other phase of their plan... That way I could control the flow of battle a bit more. If things were looking too easy, then Warbird and the second squad of Shadow Army soldiers finish stowing the experimental mini-sub engine on their ship and come back to help... If things are going badly for the PCs, or the fight is running long, then Warbird decides, "Eh, let Warhead & Warmonger handle them, I've got what I came for," and leaves. That sort of thing.

Re: Encounter Balance

As a very VERY general rule, similar point totals and similar combat abilities (damage classes, CVs, SPDs, etc.) will generate fairly evenly-matched opponents.

One thing that I look at when I'm not sure if a character is a suitable opponent for my campaign is to compare him to an established PC (or a hypothetical construct that represents the average abilities of several PCs) and ask: "Given a level playing field, how often will these two characters hit each other, and how many hits can each of them take before they go down?" This will give you a rough idea of both how long the fight between the two characters will last, and who 'should' win. Of course, dice rolls are random, and even the most rudimentary of tactical decisions can significantly influence a fight one way or the other, but it'll at least give you a chance to spot extreme mis-matches.

Basically, a villain whose defenses can shrug off an average roll from the PCs' main attacks, or who has a +4 CV advantage over the PCs, is going to be extremely difficult for them to defeat, and should either be weakened or used as a 'boss-fight' encounter.

As a rule of thumb, agents/minions/unpowered thugs should probably be easily defeated in 1-2 hits, standard opponents should be able to withstand 4-8 hits, and major villains should be able to take 10 or more hits. Keep in mind, the longer a fight lasts, the more opportunities there are for characters to Recover lost Stun, or regain consciousness, so long fights tend to get longer. If you're going to screw up, it's better to err on the side of low defenses and brief combats. After all, players love winning, and you can always have another squad of agents respond to the sound of fighting if they get too cocky.

You don't have to run the numbers for every villain you design, or pick from a published product. Once you have a few game sessions under your belt, you should be able to work out what levels of offense and defense work for your group. Then you just need to scan a writeup looking for oddball stuff like 6D6 NNDs that target DECV, or martial artists with 12 DCV and Defensive Strike, and make sure there's a way your PCs *can* fight them.

Re: Campaign Setting: Final Incursion

You could go with a Horror Incursion of some sort (the Shudder?)... The temperature throughout the world dips momentarily, and suddenly the remaining wilderness areas of the world start playing host to werewolves and abominable snowmen and cryptofauna, and old ruins are inhabited by vampires and mummies and ghosts.

Re: Avengers: Dublin Assemble!

Just did a quick scan of my rulebook, and it looks kosher:

Per Unified Power: "Unless the GM rules otherwise, characters can apply Unified Power to any game element, including any Power, slots in Power Frameworks and even Characteristics."

Adjustment powers, as a general rule, have to be used against individual slots in a framework unless they've got an Advantage that lets them reduce multiple powers simultaneously, so Unified is a meaningful limitation.

Re: Avengers: Dublin Assemble!

Nice write up' date=' looking forward to the other ones (I'm really just posting here so I can see the green dot and find this thread again... Not that I don't mean what I said, I mean if I didn't think it was a good write up why would I want to come back. Normally though I'd just rep you, and wouldn't just post "Nice write up" because that doesn't really contribute to the thread, know what I mean? Okay shutting up now.)[/quote']

 

I doubt Enforcer really objects to people complimenting his writeups, but you could just subscribe to the thread...

Re: Has there ever been a master list of characters published for champions?

There are .pdf downloads on the 'Free Stuff' page (http://www.herogames.com/freeStuff.htm?category=Champions) for Champions Universe Superheroes & Villains. I believe they only cover the 5th Edition CU, though.

Might make a good starting point if you do decide to make a master list.

Re: Character and Gameworld Concept

OTOH, I think a Total Psychological Complication would be quite appropriate for the 'engineered agent' concept. It would represent psychological (or possibly psionic) conditioning to force the agent to protect the client. Probably more appropriate for NPCs who work for a morally-gray corportation that provides CPE services to anyone who can pony up the fee. "Now that's what I call a commitment to customer service!"

Re: Does This Seem Shady?

It's certainly true that point disparities between characters don't have to torpedo a game. It's not unheard of to start a campaign with no point limits in order to simulate the JLA/Avengers team model, where you have Superman/Thor and Green Arrow/Hawkeye on the same team. I've played in a campaign like that, and it was good fun. But, IMO, that's a basic campaign ground rule that ought to be clearly communicated to all participants up front.

Which doesn't seem to be the case here.

And I'm gonna chime in along with everyone else... -2 for 'Not Under a Red Sun' doesn't seem shady. It is shady.

Re: What Have You Watched Recently?

I re-watched the Beatles' "Help!" last night. It was a bit of a surreal experience (more so than usual, that is). Nowadays, whenever I hear the cultists screaming, 'Kaili!', my brain hears, 'Kylie (Minogue)!'...

Re: Power Levels, Ranges & Threat Scales

Wow. I really didn't intend to write that much...

Guess I was on a roll.

Re: Power Levels, Ranges & Threat Scales

One thing to bear in mind is that the baseline for 'standard characters' varies quite a bit from group to group. A few years back (and by 'a few' I mean 'more than 10'...) one of my friends decided to run a Champions game. I joined, along with two others. Now, all four of us had known each other for years, and gamed together extensively, and we were all familiar with Champions... But only two of us had ever been in the same Champions group before.

When we were making our PCs, our GM asked us to make well-rounded characters, as he was sick of combat-optimized characters with only a dollop of background skills and utility powers sprinkled on top. So, independently, all three players designed characters with 10d6 primary attacks and CVs in the 6-8 range, with defenses to match, and lots of wacky background skills and stuff... And our GM ran us through a gauntlet of villains with 4d6 Armor-Piercing HKAs and Cosmic VPPs... Because, apparently he was used to campaigns where 250-pt starting PCs would shrug that sort of stuff off with impunity. It wound up being a fun campaign, as our poor overmatched heroes ruthlessly exploited every rules loophole and team tactic we could think of to triumph over seemingly impossible odds, but it was definitely a learning experience.

So, in a lot of ways, what consititutes a 'standard superhero' or a 'master villain' depends more on you and your group than on abstract point totals. Basically, thats a lot of words that boil down to, "I agree with Hyper-Man." Still, there are some things you can look at to gauge whether a given character would be more or less powerful than their total points might suggest:

I: Active Point costs of primary powers: This is probably the simplest measure of true power available... Unless a power's Limitations are so restrictive as to make it nearly unusable, you can safely assume that the character's designer expects them to get full value out of it most of the time... Or, at least, often enough to make it relevant to scenarios where that character will appear. So, if you see Megavolt with his 150-point Multipower, he's noticeably more dangerous than Howler with her 80-point MP.

II: Damage Classes vs. Defenses: 1 DC = 1d6 worth of Normal Damage = 3.5 STUN on average. If you need a thumbnail measure of how a fight between two characters would work out, just check average damage vs. defenses... If Superdude has 30 ED and Nastyman has a 12d6 Laser Blaster, then Superdude can expect to take 12-13 STUN every time he gets hit. That's a meaningful threat, but not too bad, assuming Superdude has more than the base 20 STUN. If Nastyman's henchmen have cut-rate Laser Blasters that only do 8d6 damage, then Superdude will bounce most of their hits and even if one of them hits the jackpot, he'll only take 18 STUN... He can pretty much ignore them and mop them up after the real threats are dealt with.

III: Speed: There's a reason it costs so much. A single point of SPD can be the difference between victory and defeat, even against an opponent who's more powerful than you in other ways. That extra little bit of mobility, the one additional attack, the chance to Abort to a Dodge or take a Recovery and still act as often as your opponent... These are all huge advantages.

IV: Combat Value: In general, if you have +2 CV vs. your opponent, you'll hit him twice as often as he hits you. All other things being equal, you're gonna win that fight. If you've got +4, then you've got them totally outclassed. When I'm starting a campaign, I generally specify a 4-point range of CVs as the expected starting values, and players really ought to have a compelling reason to go outside of that range. Obviously, Martial Arts maneuvers and Combat Skill Levels mean that you can pretty quickly escalate out of that range, and if someone wants to play a super-tough brick with DCV 4, that's cool. But for the most part, if I say I want characters with CVs between 6 and 10, I'm gonna take a very close look at any energy projectors with OCV 10, DCV 10, +2 with Ranged Combat and Flying Dodge.

V: Where and how the character's points are spent: This is the one that really requires you to delve into the character's build. Dr. Destroyer has several hundred points spent on things like Perks, Talents and background skills that don't directly affect his ability to fight superheroes or commit crimes. Of course, he can afford it. On a character with fewer points, though, you can often see wild swings in actual combat power based on whether they've bought a collection of stand-alone powers vs. a carefully-considered and efficient design. A character with a tremendously powerful attack, but no defenses to speak of, looks dangerous until you knock him out with one punch. This is mostly a matter of experience, as you learn about how the various game mechanics interact and what things come up in every session versus ones which come up once per campaign.

To answer your original question, here's my take on some of your example characters:

Spider-Man - Pretty much your archetypal 'standard power level' superhero. I'd peg most versions of him at the 350-400 point starting level. However, you can certainly make a case for some versions of the character to a low-powered superhero in the 250-300 point range (Ultimate Spidey, Tobey Maguire in the first movie, etc.). And the more recent Spider-man who was a member of the Avengers and wore Tony-Stark-designed power armor was certainly at least a high-powered (500-600 point) superhero.

Off the top of my head, these are the benchmarks I would aim for if I were to design versions of the character at all three power levels:

Low-powered Teen superhero - 250 total points, Str 35, SPD 5, OCV 7, DCV 8, ~4 Combat Skill Levels, 7-9 DCs (assuming he uses his CSLs to boost his damage against tougher opponents), PD/ED 12/12 or so with 50% Damage Reduction (to represent his spidery reflexes and acrobatic dodging). Primarily a hand-to-hand combatant with Entangle, Swinging, Clinging and Danger Sense.

Standard Superhero - 350/400 points (depending on edition), STR 45, SPD 7, OCV 9/DCV 10, ~4 CSLs + 'Acrobatic Fighting Style' Martial Arts, 11-13 DCs (including Martial Arts bonuses), PD/ED 20/20 w/50% Damage Reduction. Some exotic defenses (polarized mask lenses for Flash Defense, etc.), smallish Multipower of Web-Slinging Stunts to supplement Entangle, one or two gadgets/utility powers (spider tracers, etc.)

High-Powered Avengers Member - 600 points, STR 55, SPD 8, OCV 10/DCV 12, ~6 CSLs + MA, 13-15 DCs, PD/ED 25/25 w/75% Damage Reduction, more exotic defenses, Multipower of Web-Slinging stunts with 6 or more slots, more gadgets, a vehicle (Spider-buggy!), some of the more subtly useful combat skills and Talents (Defense Maneuver, Combat Sense, Lightning Reflexes), lots of Contacts with other superheroes and a positive reputation to balance his negative one. At this point, you're taking a character concept that's already pretty well-developed and broadening it more than just adding 50% more points to his existing abilities.

Dr. Doom - this is your standard 'Omega-class' villain. Sure, there are more powerful villains out there (Galactus, etc.), but everyone should take Doom seriously. I would probably build him on 1000-2000 points. Frankly, he doesn't need to spend as many points as Dr. Destroyer, but there's no reason why you couldn't run him up into the 3000+ point range. The main thing to consider is whether you want it to be possible for your characters to fight him. Doom varies wildly in power level depending on whose book he turns up in. If you want him to be the unstoppable threat that has to be beaten with cunning role-playing rather than buckets o' dice, model him on Dr. Destroyer. If you just want him to be a significant challenge for a group of standard heroes, design a character who's slightly more powerful than the PCs, then amp up his defenses so that they can just barely hurt him and are forced to wear him down over several Turns of combat. In either case, he's definitely a candidate for the 'and as many Bases, Vehicles and Followers as you want to give him' writeup.

Magneto - An interesting case. I could see an argument for him being either a Delta or an Omega-class threat. Again, it depends on how you want to use him. In a lot of cases, where a character gets ranked is less dependent on their actual ability and more dependent on what they're trying to do with those abilities. The Magneto who is just a crackpot terrorist with maybe half-a-dozen followers is a Delta-class threat. The Magneto who has his own asteroid base with thousands of loyal minions and a real chance of instituting mutant rule over humanity is an Omega-class threat, but he could very easily be built with the same number of points. I'd probably build him in the 750-1000 point range, but again, the sky's the limit if you want to spend more.

Punisher - This guy is probably a low-powered superhero in most circumstances. You could build him on as few as 150 points, or with a bit of creative thinking, stretch his concept into a 400-point 'standard superhero'... Or you could turn him into a modern Frankenstein's Monster.

The Incredible Hulk - I've seen several writeups for the Hulk. 500 - 650 sounds like a good number of points. The main thing is to have him be one of the strongest characters in your game, barring cosmic entities like Galactus and Thanos.

Scorpion - Pretty much the definition of an Alpha-class villain. You could build him as a low-powered character (250-300 points), in which case he's a mook who exists to make the PCs look good, or you could build him as a standard superhuman (350-400 points) and have him be a legitimate challenge for a single PC. The main thing is that he has fairly limited horizons. He'll never be more than a bank robber or petty enforcer. Even as the characters get more powerful, he'll probably stay at the same power level (more or less)... Eventually, the PCs will outgrow the point at which he's a meaningful threat, and he'll just be one of the guys who shows up as minion of a more powerful villain.

Dr. Octopus - Like Magneto, Doc Ock is on the cusp between two classifications. It depends on how you want to use him. At the low-end, he's an Alpha-class villain, a one-trick pony like Scorpion who will eventually be left behind by the PCs. At the upper end of his range, he could be a Beta-class threat. He's a brilliant scientist, after all... He could grow and change along with the PCs, eventually becoming a minor mastermind in his own right, with his own stable of minions and rent-a-thug supervillains to boss around. However, no matter how powerful he gets, he's unlikely to be classified as an Omega, or even a Delta. His ambitions tend to be more personal, and thus smaller-scale.

Re: Icons - The Costume and Superpowers Store

That's a good point. In the real world' date=' trials take forever for major cases, and the first few arrests of supervillains are going to be [b']huge[/b] media events. Exploring the legal structures that will form around the existence of superpowers will be a background event. Perhaps depending on the types of superpowers involved, some crimes may be done in state courts and some may be tried in federal courts. If a thug supervillain knocks over a jewelry store with a glue gun and body armor, I don't think the DOJ will be as interested as they would in dealing with a criminal supergenius who threatened to put mind control chemicals into the water supply. Once unmasked, the first supercriminals will be no more capable than talented normals, so that might eases questions of how to house such criminals while they are awaiting trial. And a new and possibly quite lucrative area of criminal defense law emerges. Expect high-profile attorneys to be eager to step into the arena, especially when the first few supervillains are arrested.

Apropos of this, if you aren't already aware of it, you might get a kick out of this blog: http://lawandthemultiverse.com/

Re: Unity -- UNTILs Superpowered Team

Yeah, looks like that's the guy. Most of his samples on the website are unsigned, but I found one with the same signature icon as the ones from UNTIL: DoF...

Re: Unity -- UNTILs Superpowered Team

As far as I know, UNITY haven't been written up for 6th Edition yet. They probably will be, since they appear in Champions Online. Based on what I can deduce from the signature and the art credits, the pictures might be by Jonathan Davenport.

Re: Quote of the Week from my gaming group...

No Amber this week (our GM didn't do any prep work over the holidays). No Feng Shui, Champions or Traveller, either (Quintus' player, Vincent's player and I were similarly lazy over the holidays). We did roll up some random Gamma World characters though, just for the heck of it:

Peter's character turns out to be a pyrokinetic rat swarm:

Peter: I'm a man of a thousand rats!

Joey: Each more flammable than the last!

Re: Quote of the Week from my gaming group...

I've been remiss in posting Amber Diceless RPG quotes... We went on hiatus over the summer, and then I got lazy. Here's a few from memory:

-----

Three members of the party have decided they need to find out what a Chaos Lord named Lysander is up to:

GM: As I recall, your plan was to have Quintus and Vincent stage a raid on Lysander's secret lair, only to have Conrad inform him ahead of time, so that Conrad could earn Lysander's trust and pump him for information...

Conrad: That's right. I have, however, detected a minor flaw in the plan.

Quintus: Just one?

----

Conrad: There's a slight chance that Lysander knows I killed his sister. He might just attack me on sight.

Quintus: So? Then you kill him and we raid his secret lair for real. That's Contingency Plan 'B'.

Vincent: So far, our contingency plans go up to 'F'.

-----

Vincent and Quintus succeed in breaching Lysander's security, after a fashion. Quintus finds himself in Lysander's office, pursued by guards:

Quintus: I kill off enough guards to give myself a little room, then 'Zorro' a 'Q' into his desktop.

-----

Vincent has kidnapped Lysander and dragged him to Amber for questioning, only to discover that he has already answered all of Conrad's questions, and been quite cordial and cooperative in the process:

Vincent: I... apologize.

Lysander: Wait... Did an Amberite just apologize to me? Did that just happen?

-----

Later:

Leandro: And, to reiterate, we really are sorry for the inconvenience.

Lysander: Twice in one day! I may faint.

Re: Quote of the Week from my gaming group...

If its a ninja teenager' date=' then you may have a tough decision to make.[/quote']

 

The ninja is always the primary threat.

Re: Armor Wars

In addition to the technical and financial barriers to widespread deployment of powered armor, there are political and cultural barriers, too. Frankly, for all the money the military spends on R&D, there's a strong conservative element in military thinking, too.

"So, you want us to completely discard nearly a century's worth of tactical, strategic and logistic doctrine in favor of this here whizbang-gizmo of yours? You sure it'll work under battlefield conditions? You're sure it won't malfunction every time it gets sand in its gears or someone hits it with microwave radiation? You're sure it's soldier-proof? Trust me, you give something like this to a pack of grunts, and they'll find SOME way to screw it up you've never even considered. I know tanks work. I understand tanks. You'll have to convince me that this thing isn't just better than a tank, but that it's as dependable, too."

Not to mention, defense contractors have billions invested in current technologies (ongoing R&D projects, existing factories, etc.), and armies of lobbyists to keep congressmen from approving budget expenditures for 'untested and potentially unreliable technology'.

"We'll just have to appoint a committee to explore the possiblity of writing up a proposal to investigate the potential of your prototype, Mr. Stark. We'll get in touch with you... eventually."

Under those conditions, if there is any technical, financial or tactical drawback to powered armor, you can be sure someone will find it and start dragging their heels over it.