Doc
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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?
And how about losing body parts' date=' or at least affecting joints so you don't run as fast or able to shoot as good.[/quote']The main advantage that mecha have over a vehicle with a more dedicated role is versatility of course, and this should be reflected in the design. Mecha are far more maneuverable than tanks and can traverse rougher terrain than any other ground vehicle with little difficulty (especially those mecha that can jump). Mecha have a high profile which can have both advantages and disadvantages. They are easier to spot (and thus target) from further away because of their tallness, but on the other hand, "Head" mounted sensors will have a better vantage point for sensing targets farther away. And because most mecha have arms with hands, they can easily change weaponry on the fly. That is probably their biggest advantage.Many mecha shows have their mecha change components on a regular basis via hardpoints on the mecha's torso, arms and legs. Gundam does this often where mobile suits will mount large beam cannons or gatling guns on their shoulder hardpoints. They mount booster packs in a "backpack" style configuration to enhance their leaping and flying capabilities. Additional weapons, missiles/rockets and equipment are often mounted to the arms and legs (such as the V-Gundam being able to mount barrier generators to the arms and legs of the unit greatly increasing its defensive capabilties) and oftentimes this extra equipment can be jettisoned with the touch of a button by the pilot to drop the extra weight to increase maneuverability (thus anything mounted on Hardpoints should count toward the mecha's encumbrance total)
That's it. And all those specificities come from the anthropomorphic design of such vehicules (I know there are other forms, but I wont consider them here). Humans usually build tools that are a specialization of one of their abilities (pliers are better hands, computers are better brains, cameras are better eyes, etc, etc, etc). An anthropomorphic mech, on the contrary, can basically do anything a person can physically do (more if it can fly), because it has legs and arms, generally with prehensible hands.
Legged movement confers advantages and inconvenients compared to wheeled movement. Legged movement uses more energy and is far less stable, but an anthropomorphic mech can go where a tank cannot, like in mountains, jungles, urban rubbles, marshes or shallow waters. What appens to a mech wich has been damaged to a leg? Can it still move? Can it still stand? What are its options if it is immobilized?
More importantly, a mech's arms are it's main specificity compared to a tank or a jet fighter. An anthropomorphic mech can grab objects, throw them. It can engage in hand-to-hand combat. It can change weapons easily, but also lose them more easily, if the hand or arm is damaged. When does a mech lose a weapon? When is its hand to damaged to carry one?
We also often forget about the non military, or even non combat uses of mecha. In Mobile Police Patlabor, mecha are used as heavy machinery and emergency vehicules on ground, under water and in space. Police mecha are used for traffic and crowd control. Are there specific rules we have to think of in those situations for a mech, say, compared to a crane?
All these can be simulated quite easily with the actual system, but I think a set of more specific, optional rules would enhance gameplay for us, mecha fans. If we can't get an Ultimate Mecha Book, I'd still hope the chapter on mecha in the new TUV would go beyond just the design of mecha and include such rules and gaming hints and ideas. After all, the mech concept goes through a lot of genres, and ideas about the gaming possibilities it opens would be welcomed, as in any other Hero book about any other subject.
P.S.: Gosh! My english writing has rusted!Sorry guys, I don't come so much anymore, but that thread is really important to me! See you!
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Re: how tall is life
Happy it wasn't a trap, though...
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Re: Another weird science post: Laser Recoil!
So in his universe,1. All the PCs are blind.
2. All the plants are dead.
3. All planets are frozen lifeless chunks of rock and ice.
You know, since photons don't actually hit anything. They're just light.
No, not in his universe...
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Re: Another weird science post: Laser Recoil!
Very true, but try explaning that to "that" player who doesn't understand even the simple things like "Why would being exposed to that much gamma radiation be harmful....the stuff just goes right through the cells!" and "It's a LASER......not like Photons actually Hit anything. It's just Light!"~Rex
Try to play in a game where the GM has this attitude... When you'd try to explain to him that photons are actually light, it would always end like this: "Well, not in my universe!" *sigh*
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Re: Cool Futuristic Projects
I really like the Green Float. Mega-City Pyramid is a little scarry. Reminds me of some manga I can't identify precisely. Not a good ending one.
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Re: Spell System
Another option is to simply leave it all costing END - which removes the "Oh' date=' we had one encounter and now I'm out of spells, we have to rest... in the middle of the dungeon..." issue common to D&D games[/quote']Yeah... That really was annoying...
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Re: Spell System
Hey, that's really good! I think it's pretty completed; at least, I woundn't know what to add or change about it.
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Re: If I had 500 slaves...
If you had 500 slaves...Then even if each is only a 25 pt slave, you would pay 50 pts to have that many as Followers.
on the other hand, if you LEASE 500 slaves...
If I LEASED 500 slaves: Summon 512 25-point creatures, Expanded Class of Beings (Limited Group: Heavy Labor Slaves; Any slave up to 150 pts; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (100 Active Points); 1 Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (Only so much traffic the market will bear; -3), Extra Time: Window of Opportunity (1 Month, Only to Activate, The slaver comes around once a month to settle accounts, provide new slaves, etc.; -2 1/2), Antagonistic Hostile (must be forced to work) (-1/2), Arrives Under Own Power (Driven in coffles; -1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus (money doesn't grow on trees); Slaves aren't free - by definition; -1/2)
The same 500 slaves of 25 pts each cost 12 Real Points plus some gold and silver!
Lucius Alexander
Palindromedary Enterprises
We sell more than just palindromedaries
Well, that's the most point efficient economical maximization I've seen on this site ever...
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Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect
Simple and effective. Sold. Thanks!
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Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect
Ah' date=' but! It all depends on whether you want them to get an advantage or not. Since this is a Limitation, I wasn't concerned with giving them a tactical advantage. You could go either way, of course, but a SE Limitation should never provide an advantage with no shortfall.[/quote']Humm... Indeed. I may have defilers pay for this effect in particular, then. But how would you do that? Drain cannot target OCV, DCV or damages directly... Drain STR and DEX? But then, it doesn't necessarily lower OCV and DCV by one... How can a defiler pay for this effect?
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Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect
Humm... On second thought, I thnik I'll go with the D&D option for the pain effect. The reason is that defilers are more than often lone vilains; they usually don't have minions, unless they can create undead (wich is not necessarily the case).
The D&D pain effect )penalty to OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV, Characteristic Rolls and Skill Rolls for one Phase, and I'll had the BDOY damage reduction too) grants them an advantage when fighting groups of opponents alone.
I'm also considering imposing an small extra time limitation on preserver casting, even though that wasn't included in the original D&D rules. As I often stated here, preserving should be a hard path to go.
What do you think about it, people?
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Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect
What about letting defilers buy an Aid spell with a Side Effect (Defiles)? If you want to get fancy you could even put a Trigger on the Aid so it happens really fast. You could also give this to everyone as a campaign rule. Just some thoughts...It sure is interesting; thanks for the input.
Looking over the freely available 3.5 conversion online, I see this as characteristic of defilers/preservers:So far, so good. From this description, preservers are normal wizards. They cast and leave no visible trace. It might be appropriate to have a Life Sense Group in Dark Sun, in which case wizards' spells must select Life Sense Group as one of the three groups in which they are visible. This would allow someone with the proper magics/training to tell a preserver was there, but not a casual observer.
So, this is a Side Effect that defilers are required to take on each spell they know, since it's an obvious result of their specific powers and can't be mistaken for anything else. Right now, it's a Minor SE which "only affects the environment near the character" and "occurs automatically whenever Power is used", worth -0 -- essentially a special effect of using magic powers. The radius of effect is close to 2m per level of the spell so, if we assume about 10 Active Points (APs) per spell level in most of the spells, then it's about 1/5 the APs in meters or 1/10 the APs in Inches.
This is a more substantive effect, akin to the propellers of airplanes doing damage to those who wander within. As a Major SE which "only affects the environment near the character" and "occurs automatically whenever Power is used", it's worth -1/2. I wouldn't bother making it a Linked Power, because it's fairly minor penalty and will be associated with every spell the defiler casts. In Hero terms, I could define that one of two ways.
- If I'm trying to copy the D&D system, then it's a penalty to OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV, Characteristic Rolls and Skill Rolls for one Phase. You could also reduce damage rolls by 1 BODY.
- If I'm going by the fact that it "causes pain," then I could see a very small Blast AVAD AE, probably a max of 1d3 or 1d6 (if it's High Fantasy). This is much easier to implement, and won't stop anyone for long -- since defilers in Dark Sun tend to be killed by mobs of angry people blaming them for the desertification of the world, it's going to be much more of a penalty than a useful combat effect, especially since frequently the defiler's allies will be in the radius.
This is part of the Major SE above. It's pretty minor (the most plant creatures could lose is 18 hp -- enough to kill shrubs, but relatively inconsequential to a Shambling Mound or the like). Most PCs will have 18 or more hp when they reach 3rd-5th level, or about Competent Normal equivalent in Hero. I would model this part of the SE as a Drain BODY 1 pip (for spells of 10 APs or less), 1/2d6 (for 11-40 APs), 1d6 (for 41-70 APs), 1d6+1 (for 71-90 APs) or 1+1/2d6 (for 91+ APs) -- it's reasonably close and dramatically displays for the really powerful magic.
This is best reflected as a Talent wizards are required to take.
Wow! You came with it so easily! I'm definitely adopting this method.
As for the choice between the D&D and Hero options of the pain effect, I'll go with the second, the Hero option. I'm trying to reproduce the Dark Sun campaign setting feeling but not the (horribly) flawed D&D rules...
In particular' date=' the D&D mechanics described above do not vary according to the availability of vegetation, which the literature suggests they ought to do.[/quote']I'll just adjust the special effect (defiling)'s radius with the terrain type. In a forest, the defiled zone would be one hex only, in a shrub plain, I don't know, something like one or two hexes radius, more in a boulder field... Arcane spellcasting won't work either in the Dead Land, where there is no life at all.
One of the problems I have with the variable advantage Transfer build is that' date=' though it's closer to how I think preserver magic ought to play out, it's a pain to have to play.[/quote']That's the reason why I'm adopting the AlHazred method right now. Simplicity is the rule for game rules...
Thanks again, everybody!
Edit: Ho, and I forgot... I'll have defilers and preservers take the same social limitation, as in the setting, most people are ignorant of the difference between the two; it's arcane magic that is hated, not only defiling.
- If I'm trying to copy the D&D system, then it's a penalty to OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV, Characteristic Rolls and Skill Rolls for one Phase. You could also reduce damage rolls by 1 BODY.
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Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect
This is how I would do it. The real advantage of being a Defiler in the game was they advanced levels much faster than a preserver. Since Hero works on a very different system this would be hard to model but relaxing the active point limits on their spells seems like a good way. Just make sure npc's hunt them down like dogs for ruining the environment!Indeed, this was the way it was in AD&D 2nd ed, but things changed a lot in the 3.5 ed (you can find it there: http://www.athas.org ).
In that version, as every classes had the same progression pace, defilers could for instance use their defiling as attacks against their opponents or enhance their spell capabilites by augmenting their defiling radius. I found that more interesting and I'd like to find a way to reproduce this in Hero.
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Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect
Perhaps the way to do it is to say that Defiler magic has a x point Side Effect that does a AOE body Drain only vs Living matter. That gives the Defilers a reason to have the scorched earth ability.Both Preservers and Defilers could have an ability that was a targeted Transfer to Endurance battery (or in 6e a Body drain linked to an Aid vs Endurance). I say both because preservers are only CHOOSING to not to drain the life around them to fuel their magic. This would allow them to refill their endurance battery by defiling the land around them. Perhaps Preservers could use it on themselves, fueling their magic with their own life energies.
Thanks for your input, Tasha, but, in addition to what Old Man already said, cannibilizing one's own life force to fuel spell has always been a defiler's trait in the original Dark Sun setting.
I don't really think this is a limit of the system so much as a limit to how much complexity I'm willing to put up with.
(...) At this point I'm already not wanting to put up with this when playing at 2 A.M.Well, to me, this is sort of a limit...
The only real system limit' date=' I think, is the granularity of the BODY of vegetation. I don't know what the BODY of a scrawny desert shrub is but it can't be any higher than 3, and even that seems like a stretch. So there's a real fine line between preservation and defiling here.[/quote']Yes, but I like it this way. Preserving should be a hard way to go. Moreover, is the BODY of a hex of vegetation so low? Maybe in a shrub plain or the Ringing Mountains, but not necessarily in the forests on their other side... After all, a square meter of forest contains quite a lot of biomass. The original D&D rules included a quantitative table for spellpower available in each terrain type.
I'd call that similar to the Cumulative advantage that's available to Transform' date=' so it'd be a +1. Which seems fine to me given that you're talking about an expensive power (Transfer) with an expensive advantage (AOE) already, plus Variable Advantage if you're going that route.[/quote']Thanks! This way, Preservers are free to pay for a more extended AoE in order to do little dommage to each hex they target while amassing enough life force to fuel their spell.
That's similar to what I'd come up with' date=' only without the drain. I dunno, on the one hand it simplifies things some, on the other hand preservers and defilers are supposed to be the same type of wizard, just that the defiler doesn't bother to control his transfer.[/quote']That's all the dilemma we're facing, right now...
The hole question is how to give defilers a capacity to defile in proportion to the power of the spells they cast, while, at the same time, imposing a toil on preservers who wish not to taint themselves.
I think I got something for the preservers' side of the dilemma with the cumulative advantage and, even though it's not really a simple solution, it satisfies me. I'd like to find something for the defilers' side as well...
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Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect
Hey, I got an idea. It's not really worked out yet, so any comment is more than welcomed.
We could just invent a new advantage for an erea of effect transfer, an advantage that would cumulate the transfered points. Normally, if you transfer 10 points from a AoE containing, let's say, 5 targets, each and every of those 5 targets lose 10 points (for a total of 50), but you only get 10. This new advantage would allow you to receive the 50 points by Transfer.
It would allow preservers to take a larger AoE in order to get enough points to fuel their spells, but without hurting much of the vegetation (each and every "vegetation hex" taking only a small amount of damage, while the cumulated points would be enough for the preservers).
Defilers could choose not to buy this advantage to represent the fact that it is easier not to force oneself to be careful with his or her surroundings.
What do you think about it, people? What would be the cost of such an advantage?
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Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect
You are right' date=' of course, but I bent that a bit so as to allow spellcasters a bit more flexibility in spell power. I sort of prevented the constant-charging effect by setting the fade on the END reserve pretty high, so it wouldn't last much more than a turn anyway. But the main factor was that it was something preservers generally wouldn't do. Of course defilers could, but that just makes them more dangerous. >[/quote']Well, it's a question of taste, then, and I can't argue about that. I just don't share it.
like I said' date=' I wanted to make preserver players think about their spellcasting as opposed to just being the party energy projector.[/quote']Indeed. Preserving and defiling in my sens should be two ways of doing the same thing. I don't want preserver characters to simply be energy projectors either, neither do I want defilers to be "special" energy projectors. Both preservers and defilers share something they have in common; they just manage it differently.
I'm still not totally satisfied with this, eventhough I went a long way since the first time I tried to build this two years ago and just now with your interesting inputs, Old Man. It still lacks something to make it more easily tweakable by defilers, more easily adaptable to their options.
That's the first time I'm not able to really build something in Hero system. Does it only require a little more work, or did we just touch the limit of the system? But, in some way, that's a very interesting challenge to take, and I'm still willing to work on this!
How about you? -
Re: Dark Sun profanating spell effect
I guess I don't see why anyone would pay for that effect.I thought about it too, but as defilers can augment their defiling capacities in order to harm their opponents simply by being casting (a "leech" in D&D term, wich can also affect animal and intelligent life) and can augment the power of their spell (as per metamagic feats in D&D terme) by defiling... Well, you need a certain knowledge of the setting, as I didn't specify those elements in my firts description.
What you have there with the Transfer is similar to what I came up with a while back. The main difference is that I didn't stack Variable Advantage on it--I'm not sure I see the need' date=' and that's real expensive. I went with Variable Limitation instead, so that characters could control the rate of transfer with Delayed Effect or Extra Time or whatever. I also left the Transfer unhooked from any spells, so that the Preserver could spend time charging up, but had to spend phases doing so. I found it helped to prevent the Superhero Wizard effect.[/quote']I'm definitely integrating the variable limitation to this; what a great idea.
The variable advantage was to permit a defiler to augment the quantity of points transfered (to represent a greater defiling radius for greater spells), even though I know that basic Hero rules don't permit a greater Point transfer.
I wouldn't let that power unhooked, though, as the preservation path is supposed to be something hard to follow. I'm affraid characters could just slowly build their power reserve as they go during days before having to use a spell. In the original Dark Sun setting, magic energy wasn't something one could store; you had to drain life energy on the spot while casting.
all Preservers and Defilers come with a hefty Soc Lim that would more than pay for it anyway. That said' date=' I was really shooting for simplicity in my build, and the Side Effect approach has a lot of merit in that respect.[/quote']Indeed, such a limitation is mandatory, I think. Moreover, I'm aware of the complexity of what I'm trying to build, but I think this is just an element too central to the setting to be cast aside or modified. That's the reason I've been having headache for days now; what a dilema...
The hardest thing about setting this up is that in Hero terms' date=' shrubbery has a constant BODY and no DEF, so a Transfer will kill it all regardless of how long you take to do it. As such the biggest difference between a Preserver and a Defiler was that the former either has a bigger AOE, or has to move around between Transfers.[/quote']Humm... Isn't there a return rate for plants, too? Maybe preservers would have to buy a "limitation" for a faster return rate to plants, allowing them to cast more often at the same place without becoming tainted by an act of defiling.
Thanks, Old Man, this is really interesting!
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Re: If I had 500 slaves...
Yes, but it throws a Schumpterian wrench into the machinery by putting the Necromancer's magic into the mix. Are spells an exogenous economic input that escapes the iron law of wages?(More likely, they can be seen as capital. Which, according to Marx, is surplus value. Hmm. Are lichs doing spell research the equivalent of zombies? Or of the ultimately alienated proletariat, no longer possessing their labour, or even the need for it?)
Humm, indeed... Are spell costly to research and learn? Is a necromancer only a skilled laborer (like an engineer), whose higher wage is justified by the sacrifices he/she made during his/her studies?
Moreover, we didn't discuss the material cost of creating a zombie. Does the spell necessitate rare material components? And yet again, does a zombie produces at least as much than a slave/proletarian? The zombie is probably slower, but doesn't require any sustenance and works all around the clock, but if it is too costly to create them, the zombification of the economy/society could indeed be avoided.
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Re: If I had 500 slaves...
...Which implies that a necromancer could charge just less for his services than all those guards. There's probably some sort of freaonomics paper in there, somewhere. Or one crazy discussion of the labour theory of value in a fantasy world. I wish that I could hear Marx debate Schumpeter on this one.And with a necromancer in the house, you could. Although it would be expensive, apparently.
Hey hey... I like this one! Isn't a necromancer and his zombies similar to an engineer and his manufacturing robots? Apparently, in order to maximise profits, both fantasy and realworld masters wish to minimize the salary mass of their explotation... So, in some way, Marx has already written about that!
There's a difference, though, as unlike manufacturing robots, zombies are creating by killing people, wich reduces the labour supply at the same time it reduces the labour demand, maintaining labour prices while reducing the rioting capabilities of the working class). So, in a world like this, there would be a continual zombification of the economy until everybody, except necromancers and masters, are zombies!
Sorry... I'm too much in political economy by now.
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Hi people,
I had already started a thread about this here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/66735-Negative-side-effects-for-spell-casting , but I'm still looking for an appropriate way to build the defiling effect of arcane spellcasting from the old the Dark Sun campaign setting.
For people who might not be familiar with the setting, spellcaster use vital energy to fuel their spells. Spellcasters can basically be divided between two types: preservers and defilers. Defilers are beyond salvation; they cannot cast without the defiling effect. Preservers try not to do so, but are able to do so to boost their spells if needed (even though it has terrible moral effects on them).
So, I've been working on this for two weeks now and here's what I came to:
Transfer 1d6 (standard effect: 3 points) (BODY to END Reserve), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1), Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; Area of effect; +1 3/4) (60 Active Points); Conditional Power Power does not work in Ubiquitous Circumstances (affect vegetation only; -2), Lockout (-1/2), Linked (Magic VPP; -1/4) Cost 16 HP and 6 END to use
There are two rule tweaks I use here. First, I permit this power to be linked with a power framework (the magic VPP I use for arcane magic in my Dark Sun campaign). Second, the basic defiling radius will be 2". The number of END transfered to the END reserve representing magic points will be augmented for each additionnal hex of radius. The exact amount of points drained will ultimately depend on the spell the character wants to cast. As different kind of terrain have different END value for magic use, a Preserver character might want to slow his or her transfer in order not to kill the vegetation around.
A lot of options can modify this basic power. For instance, an arch defiler could buy back the "affect vegetation only" limitation, combined with a "Personal immunity". Some other feats of the D&D3.5 version can be simulated, for instance, by buying the "ranged" advantage.
It's probably not perfect and I'm still not sure if this makes sens within the rule system. What do you think about this?
Edit: Arggg... I made a mistake in the title of my thread and now, I cannot modify it... It sould be read "Dark Sun defiling spell effect"...
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Re: Chink found in armor of perfect cloak
Or go for the cheap solution: big areosol paint bombs.Yeah, guards and soldiers should be equiped with bullet-proof vests that spray paint all around when they get killed, in order to indicate the enemy's position to their comrades...
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Re: The next District 9 about Alien Invasion?
once they blew themselves up' date=' it made sense.[/quote']Funny. For me, it was the contrary...
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Re: How to cram crew members into your spacecraft
In the RPG Traveller' date=' hibernation pods are "steerage class" for starship passengers, since a certain percentage of the passengers die. On the more seedy starships, the crew has a betting pool for how many passenger survive.[/quote']In Polaris, it's the same but for some different reasons. Mainly, passengers aren't hibernating at all, waiting all the trip long in their small pods. Living space is a luxury in Polaris.
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Re: December 27, 2004: The Day Earth Survived the Greatest Stellar Attack -Ever
A gamma-ray burster that was 3,000 light years away could wipe out half the Earth's ozone layer and cause a mass extinction. At 100 light years it would fry the Earth. However, such bursters emit their radiation in a narrow beam, not in all directions.But aren't g-ray bursters belonging to the very distant universe (and so, to the very long gone one)?
How could such a phenomenon happen today (approximately) in our galaxy?
(...) At this point I'm already not wanting to put up with this when playing at 2 A.M.
Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?
in Other Genres
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Re: Hypothetically and unofficially, what would you like to see in a Mecha Hero book?
I think it has been said already, but there are indeed a lot of cross-genre campaigns that could be described in such a book (or chapter). What about steam-punk and mecha? Nerver read anything about this in a Hero book. Do mecha have particuliar rules or do they offer different gaming opportunities in a cyber-punk setting? And what about fantasy mecha? How are they affected by the magic system you chose to apply in your campaign?
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.