sbarron

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

My original intention was to offer the idea that has basically boiled down to "Real X (-1/4) equipment does half damage to supers as a campaign ground rule". This was offered up as an attempt to deal with the problem of free equipment being over powered in a superhero campaign.

There are some other issues that should be considered, I think. The average cop in most HERO settings would have a 3-4 OCV. Even if you give him that LAW rocket discussed earlier, what are the chances he'll actually hit a 350 pt. super with it? Especially if you're playing with heroic rules like weapon fam. To me, the Viper agent is more dangerous for two reasons. 1) He has better equipement than the cop, and 2) he's more points than the cop (so his CV is better).

I personally have a problem with making everyone too competent in my games. So if normal people have base stats of 8 or 10, beat cops will have 12-13, swat teams and soldiers have 15-18, viper agents and special forces have 18-20s. Buy the time I'm done statting up my "mooks", they're 150-200 point killing machines that could easily down many supers by themselves. And on the flip side, I'm constantly asking my PCs to tone down their stats. If the characters main power is an energy blast, I'll suggest that his STR and DEX have no reason to be in the 20s, because his power is that he can shoot EBs, not that he's a super-tough SOB.

As a result, I realized a long time ago that if I'm going to tone down my supers, I need to tone down everything else (mooks, guns, tanks, you name it). Or, if I'm going to play with Dark Champions rules and guns, I need to allow my supers to be really super (damage reduction, very high or no point caps, again, you name it).

Lastly, let me just say that if I were going to design a supers game today, I'd tone down the damage normal weapons do. Normal pistols would max out at 1d6+1, most rifles at 1 1/2d6. Even RPGs and LAW rockets might only get 2-3d6. Though I'd give them AP. Viper agents would use EBs rather than killing attacks, but I'd make all those be AP as well. I think that would go a long way to solving any problems the PCs might have with "normal" weapons, but still allow the military and "agent" level teams to be a threat.

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

[1] The problem appears to basically be that the weapon familiarity and skill levels need to use and the contacts needed to get a powerful item are a lot cheaper than to buy that item with points. This also leads to problem with returning weapons and Foci after they have been taken away when they have been bought in different ways and it gets into meta play issues like: "how come when we lose our equipment Bob (who paid points) is always seems to find a rifle to buy first' date=' even though he's got the worst interaction skills and least money out of all of us (who use free equip)?"[/quote']Aren't the free equipment genres (basically all heroic games) and the supers genre mutually exclusive?

 

I realize it creates a bit of a logical disconnect when supers don't hold onto nice "free equipment" they come across, or when they put Dr. Doom's freeze gun in a safe rather than putting it to good use fighting crime. But that's the genre, isn't it?

 

You seem to be bending over backwards to enforce the comic book convention that normal weapons don't hurt supers, but totally ignoring the convention that supers generally do not use conventional weapons, and certainly don't keep another characters items as their own.

 

RPGs are different than comic books in a lot of ways. This issue is a big one for supers RPGs, however, because it so flys in the face of conventional gamer wisdom. Allowing "free equipment" to play a large role in your supers game might be the real problem here.

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

OTOH' date=' there aren't really any demons, godlings, or giants at all, at least not in the sense I expect you're thinking. For the non-dragons I tried to be a bit more imaginative; I'll leave it up to you to decide whether I succeeded for you. [/quote']So long as you actually made monsters, and not misunderstood creatures with hearts of gold, I'll be happy.

Re: Extreme Weather, Et Al.

The constant struggle between the Sun's evil bombardment of the earth with its infamous UV ray cannon, and the earths only line of defense against this threat, the ozone force field.*

*I'd like to go on record that I don't think we actually need rules for storms, natural catastrophes, or the deadly rays from the sun. However, for the sake of Steve's question...

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

Steve, I hope you can avoid including too many dragons, godlings, demons, and giants. While there should be a few, as is fitting a book like this, these have all been so done that I don't see much value in including too many of them. Also, I'd like to see more unique monsters...things that don't reproduce much (if at all). Monsters that inspire the imagination.

Shelob from LoTRs is the kind of monster I'd like to see in this book. Not Shelob, per se, obviously. But new and unique monsters that are ancient, mysterious, and evil beings that have lurked on the fringes from time immemorial.

Scylla and Charybdis are also good examples.

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

I agree there may well be abilities where the GM has to impose a flat point cost. However' date=' I believe that cost should be stripped down to the basics of the ability and then subject to advantages and limitations, just like any other power. Further, this should be a last resort - only where the existing powers, advantages and limitations are incapable of building the desired effect.[/quote']I don't think I would want to strip the taser down to make it a power unto itself.

 

If a character in a Champions are Dark Champions game, which requires characters to pay points for items, wanted to have a Taser, they could get one for 5 points, and it would function as I've outlined. If the the Electric Eel character, or any character in a Champions are DC game that had to pay points for powers, wanted to have a Taser "power," I'd make them design and pay for this power however they best saw fit within the rules.

 

In that way, this patch of the problems with modeling Tasers stays very limited. In Heroic games where points don't matter, Tasers basically work like they do in real life (given my restrictions). In games where characters have to pay points for equipment, buying a baseline Taser costs 5 points. Higher end Tasers would cost more. In any games where a character wanted to purchase the ability to "Tase," I'd make them create their own taser effect and pay points for it accordingly.

 

I'm not trying to redesign the HERO system. Just trying to find a work around for a simple, real world, weapon that is tough to model in HERO.

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

That wasn't the question. How much does it cost? Other characters have paid for other things. What will the ability you want to handwave in as a Taser cost in character points? How will it balance against other alternatives? How much does a character pay to be resistant to, or immune to, this new ability?

 

To me, the best way to evaluate "an appropriate price" is to use existing mechanics. Comparison to other mechanics is also a useful mechanism for assessing whether a given cost is appropriate.

These 5 points get you

"Taser: Tasers temporarily incompacitate their victims. So long as the taser is active, characters with less than a 15 CON or 15 EGO are unable to take an action. Characters with a 15 CON or EGO are able to make a CON or EGO roll to act in their phase. Once the taser's pulse is no longer active, characters effected by a taser must make a CON or EGO roll in order to begin using their muscles again.

Each standard taser contains 2 shots. Combined, these shots are able to provide about 195 five second "pulses" per battery. Once activated, the user can continue to apply the pulse until the battery runs out. Tasers are not effective against hardened defenses, or any clothing that prevents the tasers barbs from entering the skin of the victim. Tasers also have wires that must be conected to the Taser in order to deliver the pulse to the victim. Do to these limitations, tasers have a 2" range, -2 OCV, and a 14- activation roll."

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

Then why really bother to use the Hero rules at all? You can make things up and guesstimate everything. Not being snarky but if you're just going to handwave any "complicated" effects why get into the rule set at all? Just decide how effective things are and set the price arbitrarily.

HERO has already begun to embrace the concept of just making things "cost what they should" when they added the divide by 3 or divide by 5 mechanic for spells in FH. Is making things "work" as they should really that different? Especially since we're only talking about a small subset of powers, skills, or effects.

I mean seriously...the speedzone? That's canon and makes sense, but this idea is somehow whack?

So what does it cost for a Champions character who wants to carry a Taser' date=' a Superspy who wants one from his Equipment Points or a Sci Fi Alien evolved from an Electric Eel who wants to generate the effect naturally?[/quote']C'mon. You guys are acting like this is a new cocept. The Champions character and Superspy would pay half what the Electric Eel does, because for them its an OAF. (OK, if you want to get really technical, I think most tasers only have 2 "charges," although each charge can be used on the target repeatedly once the barbs get in them. So, there's a limit in that somewhere, too."

 

I'm not saying that anyone should totally abandon the system, its premise, or its concepts. I'm just saying that there are a handful of things that HERO doesn't model well, and for those things, the GM can step in and make a power work the way its supposed to, and charge the PC an appropriate price, without getting bogged down in the mechanics that we long ago established don't really "fit the effect."

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

I'd like to jump in here and say that I think this is where HERO players frequently take a wrong turn. HERO rules, toolkit, system, whatever, uses a fair amount of math, special mechanics, and dice rolling to represent "real" world effects. The problem is that because you can represent most things using these numbers and mechanics, players and GMs try to do everything with them. Some things don't fit the system very well. The taser seems like a good example. It's not really an attack against stun, its kind of like an invisible entagle while its activated, it can't knock you out, in rare instances it can kill you, etc.

In situations like this, another approach might work better. We all played D&D for years, and all the rules were based around a narrative explanation of how almost every element works. Can't we do the same thing in situations like this?

"Taser: Tasers temporarily incompacitate their victims. So long as the taser is active, characters with less than a 15 CON or 15 EGO are unable to take an action. Characters with a 15 CON or EGO are able to make a CON or EGO roll to act in their phase. Characters effected by a taser must make a CON or EGO roll in order to begin using their muscles again, due to the residual effect of the taser." 15 Real Points.

Set the CON and EGO levels where you want, or use something else. Come up with a point total that works for your game and creates the balance you're looking for. If you want some exceptions, add them in. We all know how tasers work. There is no reason for this to be this complicated. Trying to recreate a taser using HEROese, while endlessly entertaining, might be time better spent actually playing the game.

Re: Problem Player (?)

He's your friend. I'm sure you best know how to handle him. You have to think of the good of the game for everyone. If he's disrupting things, then it has to be addressed.

If you spoken to him about stopping the flow of the game and he's still doing it, well, like I said, you know what you need to do. I back your call. Its the right thing to do.

Re: 'En passant' extra attack

Thinking outside the box, maybe you could build a continuous, AE attack that only does damage under specific situations...like someone like "standing up or taking a step" when the PC is in combat mode. Make the attack be enough points to cover most of the PCs attacks, although lessening the APs in the attack to reflect its unusual nature wouldn't be unwise. Getting an attack off without planning it could easily justify it being at less than full power.

Re: How Much Experience?

That's a pretty long session...and my kind of gaming! 4 hours every two weeks drives me nuts...

Generally, I'd give out 2-3 xp per session. But if I wanted to slow down advancement (which I usually do), I might make 1 of those xp be something I hand out that I think appropriate for the session.

So, if they PCs spend the whole session looking for someone in Hamlet, combing the docks, canvassing the market district, etc, I'd give them 3 xp, 2 with which they can do what they want, and 1 that has to be AK: Hamlet 8-. If they already had AK: Hamlet, then they'd just get 1 additional point to add to that skill.

A lot of people don't like this approach, because they don't think every little thing needs to be on the character sheet. But I like seeing long lists of skills, especially for things like AKs, KSs, TFs, etc. And since most players don't want to "waste" points on stuff like that, I figured I'd just give it to them when I deem it appropriate. That way they don't have to "waste" points, and I feel like their characters have the skills they should. Just my take on things...

Re: Sorcery, aka Elemental Magic

What about what you have been working on? Just wondering what some of the same conclusions we are drawing are.

1) I divided everything into the 4 basic elements of magic that you did,

2) then used the same -mancy names you did.

3) I also decided that certain elements just didn't provide certain magic effects. So while my list of powers that each element can cast isn't the same as yours, its very similar.

4) I decided that certain magic effects weren't possible at all. You've done something similar for this style of magic, though the effects you've banned are probably do-able in other magic systems in your game. I just removed them entirely.

Re: Non-humanoid races?

The biggest problem with playing a non-humanoid is just how much stuff would not function/exist for those characters. How would one have been able to build' date=' let alone use transportation, armor, weapons, etc...[/quote']The stuff other humanoid creatures use? They probably couldn't. That's the point.

 

Just because their not humanoid doesn't mean they couldn't build things, though. There could be massive termite colonies filling a whole planet. Termites come pre-built with all the weapons and armor they'd ever need. Their motivations could be as similar or foreign as needed when compared to most other races, though.

 

They might not be looking for gold and magic weapons, the way all other races seem to. But better breeding grounds could be a goal, defeating competing colonies could be a goal. Becoming a queen, breeder, warrior...the options for motivations for the character are really pretty broad for these guys. Its just not the same stuff we're after, so it seems out of place.

 

Now these aren't regular termites, their PCs, so adding something to termite lives might be worth considering to make it a more fun race to play. Maybe if a termite gets in a lot of fights, it releases a protein that causes it to turn into a warrior termite. Maybe it has to eat its enemies to make this happen? I don't know. Maybe it has mental powers that can be developed...telepathy would be good if it didn't have vocal cords...but that's played out. Finding a way to communicate with regular PCs might be interesting.

Re: Centaur Martial Arts

This on the other hand is kind of like Centaur play fighting toned up a notch. Passed on to young rambunctious centaurs by older centaurs who have probably spent their fair share of time using it during drunken celebrations and the fights that break out because of such celebration.

Uthanar

Thinking about the way horses fight one another, you could develop a fighting style for this. The problem with it would be the standard rearing back and hitting with their front hooves attack exposes their vulnerable stomach. It's safe enough against each other, but a guy with a sword? I'd call it an offensive strike that is +4d6N, +1 OCV and -2 DCV. I think that's pretty much the only way they'd fight one another. Well, that and traditional fist-to-coughs.

Maybe call punching with their fists a regular old martial Strike.

When fighting against attacking animals, they must turn their back to use the very powerful rear kick. That would make a good defensive strike (using the offensive strike template), +4d6N, -1 OCV, +2 DCV.

"Bucking" could be a straight martial escape.

Some levels with move-by, move-through, and moving grab by.

I'd ditch the Defensive Maneuver because they'd just run from trouble they didn't want to be in.

I don't know, just throwing out some thoughts, now.

Re: A limitation that does not limit

...then your head explodes...

My gut reaction is that the question is whether the limit limits the character. But I could go either way with this. So long as it was consistant.

Personally, the Stun only limit would not be a limit to damage reduction 95% of the time in a supers game. 99% in any other type. So is that really a limit? I don't see how. Maybe if drains were really common attacks...but they almost never are.

On the one hand, you could argue the character is being penalized for the powers he purchased. On the other hand, you could say that he shouldn't waste points buying 20pd/20ed if he's also buying damage reduction.

Re: Centaur Martial Arts

If I were building a martial art for Centaurs, it would probably be something that involved ranged attacks, mixed in with timely charges into and then out of melee. I realize that's probably not what your player wants, but its just what makes sense to me.

Horses are probably faster than any other sentient land-based PC in your game. Why would they stick around and fight H-to-H when then never need let their opponent get close? I don't think they would. Having them learn H-to-H would work to neutralize their advantages...which doesn't make sense for a race of fast runners...with skinny legs.

Re: Cost of Elven Silver

Hey JmOz. So what did you decide to do?

Re: A limitation that does not limit

My gut reaction is that the whether the limit limits the character is the question. But I could go either way with this. So long as it was consistant.

Personally, I think there is little question that the Stun only limit would not actually reduce the effectiveness of damage reduction 95% of the time in a supers game. 99% in any other type. So is that really a limit? I don't see how. Maybe if drains were really common attacks...but they almost never are.

On the one hand, you could argue your point penalizing the character. On the other hand, you could say that he shouldn't waste points buying 20pd/20ed if he's buying damage reduction.

Has anyone ever created a PC race for their game that wasn't humanoid?

I was just reading JmOz's thread about bat people and I thought, "why does it have to be 'man-bat,' and not just plain 'bat.'" Not to pick on him, mind you. His thread just made me think about how ingrained PC races as humanoids is in my gaming mind.

An intellegent race of "bats" 3-4 ft in height would be different. But man-bats...that could just as easily be goblins, kobolds, gnomes, dwarves, elves, gnolls, lizardfolk, ogres, satyrs, minotarus, centaurs, rakshasas, trolls, orcs, halflings, dragon-men, etc. All of these races are humanoid. They all have two arms with which they can all wield the same magic swords; a neck with which they can wear the same magic cloaks; two legs with which to wear pants that appropriately cover their genitals. Even the ones that would logically have paws end up with hands...

Where are the races of intelligent slugs? Or energy beings? Or intelligent plants? Or even smart insects, that crawl around like bugs!?! C'mon, they must be out there...

Re: Sorcery, aka Elemental Magic

Wow! Have you been reading off my notes? I've been kicking around a magic system in my head the past few years, and I came to a LOT of the same conclusions you did. Needless to say, I like your system.

Can you summarize how much it would cost to be a Geomancer? Or better yet, could you show a sample character that uses your magic system? Preferably one with two ECs, so we could see how they look/interact together?

Thanks!

Re: Cost of Elven Silver

Unless most people are out fighting fey or lycanthropes, then it seems like the only advantage to these elven silver weapons is that they're lighter. x0.75 weight will probably get a character an extra damage class about half the time. That doesn't seem to me to be enough to justify a big cost increase, though.

Is the metal or ivory itself worth something? Does anyone use the stuff for money? If not, given your description, I'd just make them rare, and something that elves (being generally weaker?) tend to prefer over traditional weapons. I don't see how, based on the info you've provided, you can really justify making them really expensive. A little more espensive, yes. Not a lot more. But that might be ok, given your desire that not everyone have them. More on that later...

That said, if you just throw an extra damage class onto these weapons, in addition to the 0.75 wieght modifier, I think you can justify a significant price increase. On the surface, it may not seem like much, but getting +2 damage classes on most weapons will have a definite impact on combat. The difference between 1d6k and 1 1/2d6k, or 1d6+1k and 2d6k is substantial. Then I could see justifying doubling or even tripling the cost. Still not enough to make them inaccessable to the other PCs. Just a little harder to get.

The problem with making them too effective is that everyone will want to have one. They'll feel they have to to be competitative. The first option, where they are uniquely elvin, but don't provide over-riding benefits, comes near to ensuring that that only characters with some cultural connection to these weapons (elves), will actually seek them out to use them. Its kind of a catch 22. Make them too good, everyone wants one, regardless of cost. Exotic but functionally the same as normal weapons, and nobody really cares to get one.

I'm just rambling now...but what about giving them a +1 DC and/or +1 CV, only when used by elves? Nothing magical, mind you. Just something about how they are specially designed for elvin physiology, and the elvin silver is light and strong enough to be crafted in a way that other metals cannot. Therefore these weapons can only be used to their maximum potential in the hands of an elf.

That being the case, elves will want them. You can just make them rare, so not every elvish character will have one. And to other races these weapons will just be an unusual weapon...nothing special to help you win a fight, if more valuable than normal. And assuming a party setting, what non-elf PC is going to keep something that another character can put to better use?

Random thoughts on a Friday morning...

Re: Negative side effects for spell casting

I don't know anything about Dark Sun. That said, if this is a feature of the magic system, you might not need to worry about anyone purchasing it at all. Just decide how it works and then have it happen.

If you want to build it, it sounds like an AE Body Drain, or a small AE RKA. Rather than linking to each spell, you can make it a side effect for each spell. That way, you can go over the APs of the spell with no worries.

However, I'd only allow that limit on characters that gave a crap about killing things around them. BBEG wouldn't get a limit for this, because he wouldn't care if he killed the minions around him, so long as it got the PCs, too. That's why I think I'd just make a feature of the setting, so everyone paid the same points for it.

Re: "Glass Jaws" for Tough Minions?

I've used "critical" hit rules where "less-than-half the roll needed to hit results in a crit." So, 13- to hit made 6- a crit, and 12- to hit made 5- a crit. A crit resulted in max damage.

Something else you might be able to use...we also had character tiers. A character on a lower tier could not crit someone on a higher tier. So, if your character was a Hero, he couldn't be critted by a Normal, but he could be critted by a Super-Heros. And Super-Heroes could only be critted by other Super-Heroes. We just had the 3 levels, Normal, Hero, and Super-Hero, but I suppose you could create as many as you needed.

So, maybe you could use these crit rules, but only for mooks and lesser opponents.

Re: Perfect bodyguard

Well' date=' that's exactly what I'm trying to simulate...[/quote']I'm not sure if you got my point or not...so I'll plug along as if you didn't, and if you did, I apologize.

 

I was trying to say that you can create this character without any special powers. He would need to have a good half-move, decent speed and CV, and some levels in block. But primarily, he would need to spend a lot of time holding his actions in case someone tried to attack his ward. If the "appearing" is really important, then just have him by a teleport, must pass through space, at the same level as his half move.

 

But again, holding an action for protecting the ward is still the key to getting this to work. To me, that is the heart of this character, isn't it? It seems like you're trying to build a power that allows your character to appear to be very protective of his ward, without actually having to play that character.

 

On the how to...I always thought things with trigger were pretty clunky, especially for something like this. It can work, certainly. It's just not how I would do it.