sindyr

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

You are starting with powerful absolutes' date=' and you probably can get most of that into 300 points but you wont have much left over for other stuff. Being able to teleport anything you know about anywhere you like is a very beefy ability.[/quote']

 

I think I can cut down the power level of the example while still illustrating the same base issue.

 

Let's make the power "Can teleport anything in his house/base to any location within 1000 feet of him"

 

So at this point he can *only* tp stuff that is currently in his place, and can only TP it to a place within 1000 feet of him (including inside other things, like gas tanks.)

 

Surely such a limited ability ought to be able to be built on 100-200 points? Or less? After all, once he has left the house, he has no options to increase his potential? Plus, if he only has one Flashlight at home, once he TPs it to himself, if it break, he's out of luck.

 

But even with this much more limited power, it's too versatile to build in Hero System without resorting to VPPs

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Oh, and for what it's worth...

 

the Variable Power Pool IS the contingency construct.

 

So I sort of change my mind, yes you can do that - it's called a VPP.

 

Well, at least now I feel a little more like I wasn't so far off base, since this is what I said at the beginning - the only way to get consistency and fidelity to the internal logic of the truths of the game world is to employ VPPs across the board.

 

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Let's look at "Teleport Object from a known location - My Base - to here" ability. You place Barbed Wire, a Machine Gun, Two Knives, a Pair Of Binoculars and a Tape Recorder. "Teleporting Things From My Base To Me" is your Special Effect.

 

You've bought all of that using the Powers that best model each one.

 

Yes, and now you can't place anything else in your base for future teleportation without spending CP. For example, a flashlight - because you haven't bought any "light" mechanics and you don't have any CP.

 

I must be the only here who founds that unbearably artificial. You ask the GM - waitasec, don't I probably have a flashlight at home, most people do."

GM rolls: sure, you do

Player: OK I teleport to me so we don't have to fight these creatures in the total dark.

GM: Nope, you didn't prepurchase that effect and you have no CP left.

Player: What? Can't I teleport stuff from my house to me?

GM: Nope, you can't buy that ability. Teleporting stuff from your house is your SFX, meaning that you can only teleport the specific items you have paid for.

Player: But I wanted a character that could TP anything in my house to me! That doesn't seem too much to ask for.

GM: In Hero System, it is. But that's OK because it's a reallt cool system that you can learn to work with, and when things don't work out, you can blame yourself for not having had either the foresight in real life or the CP or both to have prebuilt it.

Player: I quit.

 

That's where I am at - does this make sense now? I want to know how in Hero System you buy an ability to do a reasonable group of things, such as the Things in my House. Since it requires a little prep, that shouldn't be a godawful powerful ability we must keep the players from getting therelittle hands on at all costs.

 

I *think* the truth is that, without GM hand-wavery and overriding, the Hero System is a game of mechanics first with the story existing secondarily and a lower priority level. Like in Forge games, the resources the plaer spends (or in this case, dont spend) overrule the internal logic of the game world.

 

And that causes me a massive and unnacceptable cognitive disconnect.

 

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

What if instead of Captain Napalm, you have The Teleporter, a character that can do the following in game things:

 

1) Teleport anything he can see to anyplace he can see. (To keep this simpler, lets not even consider using TP against another character)

2) Teleport anything he knows where it is (say, stuff he has left in a room in his house for use as he adventures) to some where he can see. Range, unlimited, but he has a better chance to teleport the item if it's in a more familiar place or if it's closer. This means that stuff in his home he can TP no problem, as well as that glass he saw on the table in the other room (If it's still there.)

3) Teleport anything he can normally teleport above to a place he can't see, but can imagine, that is in range (1000 feet, say), perhaps having to roll for precision, such as placing the lit match in the gas tank.

 

Now, without making a VPP, how can I create the above character on 300 CP or so, in such a way that any use of the power that comes up in game will not fail due to not havnig purchased the right mechanics? For example, if I don't buy an Entangle, but later on I think to put a quantity of barbed wire in a room in my house, to be able to TP near/infront of/around baddies.

 

How can I design this hero so that theres no chance that later on I will think of something to put in my home that I can TP later, which winds up being disallowed on the grounds that I don't have the mechanics to cover it? Without using VPPs?

 

Edit: And without having to spend more CP, which I may not have?

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

After reading the replies so far, it seems that no one has any idea what I am talking about. Either I am not explaining well (the most likely possibility), or you guys have bought into the Hero System that you simply do not see what I am seeing, or some other issue is coming up.

 

However, I do not know what else to do to try to explain the issue I am having. I literally do not know where to go from here, to try to get some help on this problem I am suddenly seeing with the base truth of Hero System.

 

I don't know what to do, but I do know that until this is resolved, I may have to put all further Hero System work or exploration on hold.

 

The *only* thing I can think of is that this medium (written posts) has ALWAYS been abjectly poor for complex conversation where they may be unspoken assumptions on both sides and other pitfalls. It has a HUGE turnaround time for a single exchange.

 

I think I could be much more effective by phone, should some Hero System expert make themselves available to me for a voice chat session for 10 or 15 minutes or so - I have unlimited long distance to North America and Western Europe. Of course, absolutely no one has an obligation on that, although nothing else seems to be working.

 

But I am well and truly stuck, doubly so because I don't seem to be able to communicate my base issues in written form, though I have been trying for some time today.

 

Drat.

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

You are asking “Why can’t a character create Napalm?” when the question should be “If the character wants to create Napalm how do I build that power?”

 

Does that make sense?

 

If you are in the middle of a session, and the player has no CP left to spend, but his character ostensibly was supposed to be able to something anything commonly present somewhere on the earth, it doesn't matter how to build it, he has no points left. At which point, you would blame the player or GM.

 

But you can't blame the player or GM for not thinking of every possible way that summoning stuff could be used. It's just not possible to guarantee that the player won't have an Aha moment later, when his character points are gone.

 

And since he has no character points, the GM has to tell him even though it makes no sense for his character to NOT be able to do this one small thing when he has done stuff just like it all along, he can't because he has no points. - Or not enough.

 

That's the issue.

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

agreed' date=' which means the player and the gm need to put a lot more up front chargen focus so that "the things he can do and i will want to do" are addressed beforehand.[/quote']

 

My question is what if either 1) They thought they *had* addressed all that beforehand, and only later come up with "I ought to be able to do X, becasue there's no reason why in story logic I shouldn't" - like the matchstick in the gas tank and 2) What if prethinking all the reasonable ways that someone can do X could be bought as powers, one runs out of CP? Then its back to VPP VPP VPP, I guess.

 

you seem to keep thinking along a line of BUY a POWER then get all its potential sfx imaginings for free, and that i think where the problems arise.

 

I think its really the reverse - a player ultimately is not excited to have a mechanic that says you can have X in game effects, he is excited to be able to have a teleport POWER in *game* that he can use. The STORY part is the part that is the fun and the meat. Plus I don't like punishing players for using their powers in new and creative (and reasonable) ways.

 

Maybe the power skill power is the key, will check it out.

 

However, my gut instinct, as a RP'er for 30 years that has played dozens of systems and collected over a hundred, that although it doesn't see that way at first, Hero System is really about narrative control the same way that an Indie Forge style game is (or maybe the opposite way) and your character points buy specific ways for you to affect the story, the DON'T buy in game truths that you can leverage and explore, the way traditional games do.

 

Still, maybe I can fudge it.

 

Heresy alert: There's something to be said about a game that gives you the ability to do somethin - like teleport objects - and you get all results from that in game power that in any way you can think of employing it.

 

Like TPing a match into a gas tank.

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

When an ability is modeled incorrectly' date=' that's not a system problem, it's a build problem. If an ability, modeled correctly, is too expensive for the PCs to purchase, again, that's not a system problem; that's PC power being limited to the levels agreed upon by the Players and GM. Given enough points, and a GM willing to allow the builds, and even the PC who from a Special Effects point of view infinitely duplicates the powers of others is easy enough to build (a big enough Multiform, for example, will do it). Whether a GM will allow that is his business.[/quote']

 

Is this *any* different from saying "the system is working as intended, if your power doesn't seem to work the way the world logical consistency would demand, then either you built it wrong, and so should suffer, or it's too expensive and it's more imprtant that you don't get power you didn't pay for even if that makes the game world stop making sense in some ways?"

 

I'm being deadly serious - with the guys who can create stuff, for example - one would imagine that creating napalm, or even basic gas, is not hard *from a story point of view*, if the mechanics forbid it do you just decide not to care that suddenly the truth of the gameworld doesn't add up, because the mechanics and point totals are more important?

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I think something Synd keeps missing is the "reasoning from special effects" aspect of Hero.

 

 

The only reason to buy a power like that with the intent to cause damage is to cheat points.

 

For me, it's not about cheating the mechanic, but respecting the truth of the story reality, and making sure that the system doesn't do violence to the integrity, authenticity, and internal logic of the game world in order to preserve balance.

 

On the other hand, maybe in the Hero System, balance and mechanical justification trumps things making sense in the story world.

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

So basically, if you have a summon power, you can summon anything that doesn't conflict with another power... You can summon barbed wire, but it can't Entangle people. You can summon a steel wall, but it can't protect you with PD/ED/Def the way a Force Field would. You can summon Napalm, but it's not going to be able to be lit.

 

There are some problems I see coming straight for me with this - which I guess are just how the Hero System works.

 

I have a character called the Architect, whose power is to be able to make stuff from nothing - walls, barbed wire, cars, napalm. In order to REALLY be able to do this in game, I the *player* have to know during the character building process all the different ways I need to buy various mechanics to equal this overall ability. But if I leave one out, say I don't buy an RKA, then suddenly either I can bring into being being anything except napalm, or I can bring napalm into being, but the darn stuff doesn't light. Both seem to be cognitive disconnects.

 

I understand from the point of view of the Hero System, that's Working As Intended - but that is zero comfort to the player (or GM) when it comes up.

 

Of course, for people who want powers that do not correspond neatly one-to-one with the mechanics listed, you could just make everyone buy VPPs, but that seems a little cheesy. Want a Speedster, while making sure that nothing is left out, buy a VPP. Want someon who controls Fire? VPP. A summoner? VPP. Heck, even a simple energy projector that wants to use his blast to shoot a hole in the road ahead of a truck in order to stop it may find the mechanics don't let him because he never bought Entangle for his Energy Blast character - he shoulda purchased a VPP. A VPP seems to be the only way to make sure that you can employ the mechanics to live up to the vision. But if everyone is being better served by VPPs, the system itself seems flawed to me, even if it is Working As Intended.

 

I know that all of this is probably heresy, but I think it needs to be said, especially because I keep hoping I have something wrong here.

 

Another example - you are want your character to be able to teleport small objects anywhere with 500 feet, including into closed boxes and other places you can't see. You buy the teleport power, with appropriate modifications. The later, when you are in a car chase being chased by the bad guys, you tell the GM youare pulling out your matchbook, striking a match, and teleporting it into the gas tank of the car chasing you.

 

Apart from hand wavey kludging, like "A gust of wind blows it out beofe you TP it" or (fudging) "ummm... their gas tank just happens to have a hardened force field around it." you are forced to do one of two things - say "OK, the car goes boom" giving the player a free use of RKA with AoE; or say "the rules do not permit that, no matter that there's no good reason within the story why you couldn't do that..."

 

Guess he should bought the VPP instead of TP too.

 

Am I alone in thinking this is crazy? Or does Hero permit after all the TPer to blow up the chase car by using only the TP of a lit match?

As many of you know by now, I like to understand the edges of a system, so I ask some questions that help define it.

 

And by the way, asking questions here is not in place of simply reading the core book, but in addition to.

 

Anyways, I have 2 questions:

 

There's something that occurred to me may be an issue with the way the system works. Or maybe not. That's why I am asking.

 

With Hero System, you buy your mechanical effects. In reverse, this means that if you don't buy an effect, you don't get it, even if it "makes sense" in game. Right?

 

But that's not my question. My questions is this: If you Summon a decent quantity of napalm over an area, and then strike a match and toss it, does the napalm not burn? After all, you paid for the power to Summon napalm, not for the 15d6 AoE Fire RKA?

 

In case that was a poor example, please read through my words to the underlying issue: Do we prevent things from happening in the game reality that make sense because points weren't purchased? If a hero for some reason is unable to use his powers, but a baddie's gun is at his feet, does the GM have to unrealistically prevent the character the picking it up because he hasn't paid for it?

 

The way I figure it, either the character is limited to only affecting the world via his purchased abilities, despite the reality of the game world, or the player can simply do an end run around some costs by careful use of in world options.

 

Is my point of questioning make sense? Do I either have sacrifice fidlity to the internal logic of the game world or a balanced mechanic point economy? I can't see a way to have both?

 

Second question. In a past game, we had a girl named Heidi, who could permanently Freeze things (not cold, stasis). She also had an ability to create a communion between herself and willing participants, and once the communion was established, all the people in it could not only mind talk, but have each other's powers for the duration of the communion.

 

So, for example, if Heidi Communed with 4 other people, that meant that each of the could use Heidi's Freeze power all at the same time all independantly. It's as if they gained an independant version of that power during the communion, while Heidi still had it as well. And of course, during Communion, they could ALL freeze baddies independently.

 

In this game also was the ability to make an effect permanent by spending a possibility point. So this is what Heidi did. She linked up with someone who had a power she wanted (and was willing), which gave her temporary access to tthat power. She then used the Freeze ability to Freeze that power's existence within her, so that even after the Communion dropped, she retained the power.

 

By this method, she started to accumalate many different powers. By the end of the game, she had dozens of powers that worked exactly like those she had copied them from.

 

I cannot imagine how this could be possible in Hero System. Heidi effectively granted herself in game (she was an NPC baddie by the way, but I do believe strictly that anything an NPC can do, so can a PC.) the equivalent of extra CP by copying other people's powers.

 

And I don't think even a VPP will do - a VPP would require a LOT of advantages in order to mimic her use of other people's powers - and she didn't just copy the type of power, but the precise level of power. So she can't copy for example a 15d6 EB and wind up with a 10d6 after paying VPP penalties. Also, I can't just give her arbitrarily more CP to start with since she started at the same power level at the same time as the PCs.

 

Is this something that the Hero system by defintion does not permit - that there is no way to build this ability, because the point of Hero System is "conservation of CP, CP can neither be created nor destroyed" kind of thing?

 

Thanks

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Did it move them back body and mind, as in if they were wounded, their wounds remained with them after going back, or mind only?

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

A 1 point PD force wall is the same cost. And characteristics with advantages or limitations ARE powers.

 

OK then, leave characteristics in.

 

 

Well, I can Rapid Attack it multiple times to hit the vault multiple times, and Haymaker it, so that will bump up the costs.

 

OK, is this good or bad or neither?

 

So why should I ever pay for an NND that Does BOD (+2) attack if I can pay +1/4 to +1 for an NND that does BOD with the defense being Cosmic Defenses?

 

This is *just* dense enough that I cannot quite parse this: what? What is your question here?

 

Toi repeat, why don't you familiarize yourself with the costs of the abilities your Cosmic abilities will supersede before trying to price your cosmic abilities?

 

I plan on operating on all fronts more or less simultaneously.

 

My next plan, apart from continuing to participate on these threads, is to read through the core book, and then try to recreate the character of myself and my players from our previous games in Torg, in Hero System.

 

I will post each attempt in its own thread, but I better read the corebook cover to cover before starting that.

 

Should be fun.

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

In our High Powered Campaign (900+ Point Characters) we had a Time Manipulator who could jump a large group of people (800kg/8 ppl) back in time up to 5 Minutes.

 

It was a STUNNINGLY MASSIVE game breaking ability. So much so that an unspoken agreement to never ever ever use the Power again unless it was a Major Plot Point was made by everyone at the table.

 

It was used a total of twice in the campaign. the first time when we went "wow, that really does break the game." and near the end of the campaign when the Characters were pulling out all the stops and going for broke.

 

It's interesting that your game had a similar power that wound up being in all caps "a STUNNINGLY MASSIVE game breaking ability" whereas the game I ran went smoothly and proceeded well.

 

I posit three possible explanations for the dramatic difference in outcome:

 

1) The powers weren't all that similar.

2) The game system (Torg) was less abusable than the one you used (presumably, Hero)

3) If neither of the above, perhaps it was the specific GM that made the critical difference.

 

My hunch is that it was #1. You see, in my game the character could only go back himself, and then only in ten second increments - and4 such increments were difficult. Additionally, the ability was limited in that once one had jumped back ten seconds, one only had another 50 seconds or so one could jump back - do that another 5 times, and you have NO seconds to jump back. Since there was no jumping forward with this power, the only way to get your seconds back to start jumping back again is to have a "timeout" where one's character is completely unaware and incapable of action, as well as being completely vulnerable, in order to "pay back" the time one has jumped back, to be able to do it again.

 

Long story short, if a combat goes bad, and the time guy has to jump back 30 seconds, he can, undoing everything that has happened - but he's the only one that remembers those 30 seconds, and he's probably still in a fight. If he tries that trick again, great, but now he can't jump back anymore, he's out of "jump back" time. And since the only way to get that back is to go catatonic for a long period of time, odds are he won't be using that ability for the duration.

 

It worked really well in our game. (Of course that wasn't his only time ability) I can't say whether that was because it was a really well balanced power, or because Torg works well for stopping exploits, or if I'm just that good a GM (I hope I am *somewhat* good, been doing it for 25+ years) - I *think* the power was well balanced. Which, since I helped the player craft it, I probably get credit for anyways.

Re: Rolling lots of D6s

 

So a 12d6 attack is 9x3.5=32 points (I'm rounding up) PLUS the roll you made to hit the target. Absolute minimum dice rolling but with a randomish result (it actually favours lower than average totals a little, but it is close enough for government work). It also rewards higher combat skill as you have the potential for higher damage without it becoming unbalancing.

 

I would seriously not encourage you to add much more randomness by rolling a smaller number of dice and multiplying, especially if you are keen on absolutes.

 

Okay, let's not consider 5d6 x 3, which *would* increase the randomness, but if I did 15d6 as 12*3.5 + 3d6 wouldn't that be less random?

 

In fact, is this not an easy way to control the degree of randomnes? For each die of rolling you replace with 3.5 is one less random? Makes me think you could have an advantage for something like this, such as:

 

+1/2 (or maybe 1/4): Predictable. Instead of rolling, take 3.5 per d6, and/or 1 Body.

 

or even:

 

-1/2 (or maybe -1/4): Random. Instead of rolling Xd6, roll 1d6, multiple the result times 6.

 

This is mostly joking. Mostly. ;p

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Other people have talked about this in in specific and reasoning from FX in general but I want to emphasize it one more time with an example.

 

The question you asked is how do I model jumping back in time. You don't model that directly.

 

Well let me add more details - I actually ran a game in the Torg system where a character had certain limited time powers. One of those powers was to jump back in time up to a minute. Sixty seconds was the limit of his power, once he had jumped back a total of sixty seconds, whether in one jump or several smaller ones, he couldn't jump back anymore. And every second he jumped back went into his "time bank" putting him under more and more stress. To relieve the stress he could choose to "burn off" time in his time bank by being effectively frozen and unaware for the same amount of time, letting the world's time and his time renormalize.

 

The good thing is that unlike Hiro in Heroes, when this character jumps back in time, it undoes whatever happened, even to the character. One example of an early instictual use of his power is when he stepped off a curb and got hit by a bus. As he lay dying of massive wounds, he jumped back 30 seconds and chose not to cross the street, and the bus didn't hit him. Later, he had to *unclench* his time muscle - this made him miss 30 seconds of time, during which the outside world saw him as unmoving and still - and completely vulnerable.

 

So this character can't really hop through time like a true time traveller, but he does have a bit of an *undo* button.

 

What I would really like to do is have the GM have to undo everything that happened for the last X seconds, but the character still knows what he experienced even though that time is undone.

 

GMing this character, for example, he could walk into a room, get the lay of the land, zip back 40 seconds, burn off 40 seconds of downtime, and be ready to enter the room knowing what was inside.

 

Or he could pump someone for information, and then undo it - he still has the info, but know he never asked the questions or got the answers.

 

Or in a suprise calamity, he can jump back and deal with the happening knowing what is happening as it starts.

 

One thing I especially like is roleplaying through the use of this - especially since neither the players nor I know when he will use the power until he does. Since it has a cost, I can't make the decision for him.

 

I think the only way to make this power work correctly is to make it work precisely the way it is experienced - that is, allow the player and his character to roleplay out until the moment that he wishes to jump back 40 seconds, then roll it back.

 

How can I build that?

If you have to roll a lot of D6's, say for a 15d6 EB, is there a method to maybe roll 5d6 and multiply by 3, or 5d6 + 3.5(the average) times 10 or something?

 

I want to have *some* dice rolled, to preserve some randomness, but to cut it down to a manageable number.

 

Thanks.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

Cosmic defenses seem much less expensive. 1 point of Cosmic PD will allow me to ignore all "under-Cosmic" attacks' date=' but 1d6 Cosmic EB won't punch through a Normal bank vault.[/quote']

 

If we have a buy-in cost, then 1 point of Cosmic PD actually costs 100 for the Cosmic Order "buy-in" plus PD's cost * (Cosmic Advantage).

 

However, possibly the Cosmic Advantage can only be bought for Powers, not characteristics. I am not saying definitely, but possibly.

 

And truthfully, a 1d6 Cosmic EB is still pretty weak - it ignores all DEF, and will eventually deplete the Body of the Vault, but it's going to take time.

 

I suspect the actual result is that the three tiers cannot successfully interact. If I bring my Mega character into a Cosmic campaign, he can't affect any meaningful (ie Cosmic) opponents, and can't defend himself against their attacks. All he can hope to do is hide long enough to go home. That's a big difference from the comics I remember where those "ordinary" superheroes had a major impact on Cosmic events. More to the point, it seems to serve only to set the scale of the game and everyone in it - if there are Cosmic characters, then any character without Cosmic is pretty much helpless before them.

 

Which seems to concur with my point, above. The possibility that Sgt. Grit can interact meaningfully with Mega characters is dismissed out of hand.

 

It probably needs some tweaking. One vision I am trying to achieve is the heroes face off against a baddie with a cosmic armor, so they instead go after an in that doesn't have cosmic protection, such as Mind Control. In other words, even Cosmic beings have some non Cosmic attributes, which can be exploited.

 

That's the idea anyways.

 

Advantage for Mega Power? How about +1.75? That's an Attack vs Limited defenses, reasonably common subset of normal defenses (Mega would be reasonably common in a campaign where Mega powers are permitted, I assume) that does BOD. This seems to set a reasonable benchmark. Maybe call it +2 in the interests of simplicity, and factoring in the fact it just makes you Mega.

 

I don't think +1.75 is going to work, especially on top of the 50 point buyin. I was thinking more like 1/4 to 1/2 for mega, and 1/2 to 1 for Cosmic. WITH the aforementioned buyin needed too, to keep it out of the hands of low level characters.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

 

OK, you guys are making me think and work hard here – you are serving up some good critiques, some constructive criticism, and most importantly, some interesting avenues for exploration.

 

 

And very on-the-nose point about Superman and Miracleman, Excellent point! Thanks!

 

 

I think until I have been coming at this problem backwards.

 

Instead of trying to define what the effect of the ability is, I think I need to work it just like Hero System itself does and approach it from a point of view of “what am I trying to accomplish mechanically” first and foremost. So I sat down and looked at all my posts, trying to figure out the common *mechanical* threads in what I wanted to accomplish that I felt the system didn’t permit. And it boild down to just 4 or 5 things:

 

 

• Some abilities have a hole in them, such as Resurrection or NND. I want a way to fill that hole at a cost.
  
• Some abilities have limited values, such as Range in Teleportation. I want a way to make that value unlimited.
  
• Some abilities are almost complete, but don’t offer guarantees, like Full Life Support. I want a way to take the effect to the fullest, regardless of future circumstances.
  
• Some abilities have chance involved. I want a way to eliminate chance and either make it certain or impossible.
  
• And finally, some abilities are used in conflict. I want a way to Trump people who haven’t bought the special level of Trumping.
  

 

It finally dawned on me that I do not need to make a universal system that does all of the above, because there are few enough things on the list that each can have its own tailor made solution, as appropriate.

 

This really solves a lot of issues. It allows the each fix/add-on to be much more focused on doing one thing precisely and well. I don’t right now have solutions for the first four, but Chris and Sean seem to have given me an idea for the solution to the fifth one, which I think is really the big one – the ability to trump someone’s (or some thing’s) abilities with yours in a conflict. Here is how I accomplish that:

 

The world has different scales, or “orders” to it. Most will have either two (Normal, Cosmic) or three (Normal, Mega, Cosmic). Every effect in the world is of one of these “orders”. (If "Mega" is too confusing, I can use "Super" or anything else)

 

 

For example, fire can be of any of these orders. A campfire’s heat may be Normal, while the Inferno in a warehouse could be so extreme as to warrant the use of the Mega level (for game worlds with three orders). Finally, the heart of a star could be considered Cosmic, as could the secret Black Fyre at the Heart of the Universe.

 

The point is, a higher order effect isn’t just one with more dice or advantages, it’s one of a fundamentally higher order, an entirely new thing.

 

Entities, such as characters or things, are considered of the same order of the highest order effect that they can produce. For example, a device that has a Mega order scanning ability is a Mega-order device. A character that has a Cosmic order level Force Field is a Cosmic character.

 

If an effect of a higher order occurs to an entity/thing of one order below it, all resistances and chances to avoid the effect are also ignored. Therefore if a Cosmic Energy Blast hits a Mega character, the Body and Stun of the EB is not at all diminished by ED or any other characteristic. If a Cosmic Mind Control hits a Mega character, the mega character cannot successfully attempt Breakouts.

 

If the effect of a higher order occurs to an entity/thing of two or more orders below it, all the above is true and the effects are *doubled* - whether that’s Body and Stun, or Mind Control dice, etc.

 

So for example, if a being with a Cosmic Energy Blast attacks a Hardened Door, not only does the EB ignore the Door’s DEF, the Body done is doubled. No, mundane objects don’t pose much impediments to Cosmic beings. On the other hand, if the Energy Blast was Mega instead of Cosmic, the DEF would still be ignored, but the Body wouldn’t be doubled. Obviously, if the door was of a higher order than the EB, it would ignore the EB completely. If the door and the EB were of the same order, than just treat as usual.

 

Another example, a Cosmic EB hits a Mega Character, the Mega Character’s PD/ED/other stuff is ignored. If a Cosmic EB hits a Normal Character, this PD/ED/other stuff is ignored and the ffects are doubled – double Body and Stun.

 

Now, the question is how to price this? I have a few ideas.

 

First of all, it may be a good idea to have an “entrance” fee. For example, a Powers/Talents like these:

 

Higher Order: Mega. 50 Character Points. This ability permits you to use the Power Modifier “Mega-order”, paying full price. This also makes you a *Mega* order character.

 

Higher Order: Cosmic. 100 Character Points. This ability permits you to use the Power Advantages of “Mega-Order” or “Cosmic-Order”, paying full price. This also makes you a *Cosmic* order character.

 

This sets the bar higher for entry into those orders. Note that while the above do provide entry into the respective Orders, with some defensive benefits, having Higher Order: Cosmic does not provide any benefit to your powers and abilities unless you buy for them the Power Modifier such as Cosmic Order Ability, described below:

 

Power Modifier - Mega Order Ability: This power is now a Mega-Order power, with all that entails.

 

Power Modifier - Cosmic Order Ability: This power is now a Cosmic-Order power, with all that entails.

 

The question about the above options is should these be Adders or Advantages? We could for example do Mega Order as a +15 CP Adder, or possibly as a +¼ or +½ Advantage, while Cosmic Order might be either a +30 Adder or +½ or +1 Advantage. What are your thoughts?

 

Apart from pricing concerns, there are a few potential uses here. You could use the three level system, Normal/Mega/Cosmic, keep everyone at the Normal level for a gritty street level campaign, use the Mega level for standard superhero stuff, and the Cosmic for truly epic stuff. Or you could start off your characters for free at the Mega level, giving each of them the Power Modifier Mega-Order on their abilities for free, perhaps giving them a break if they sell it down to Normal.

 

Or perhaps you just want two levels – Normal, and Cosmic for the really epic stuff. That’s fine.

 

Of course, another thing that you can do with three levels is more easily move character between games and campaigns. Let’s say that you are running a street level campaign with a player whose character is Sgt. Grit. And you want to transfer that character into a more “super” campaign. Giving him a few more CP is probably a good idea, but in addition you can bring him to the Mega-order, which will quite suddenly and effectively place him in a new league, significantly more effective than he was.

 

I will work on the solutions to the first four points later, but just wanted to post this new idea.

 

 

I do like the idea that a GM can using this system choose to make all starting characters and all their abilities Normal, Mega, or even Cosmic right off the bat, thereby saying "OK, everyone gets Mega level abilities for free - we won't be worrying about street fights with bar thugs", for example.

 

 

 

Actually, I am liking the term "mega" less - should I just call it "super" and have done with it?

 

 

A forum etiquette question: A what point should I/am I encouraged to stop adding to the old thread and make a new one? This is like revision three of the original idea and it’s drifted far from the absolutes we started with.

 

Thanks all.

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Thank you everybody, MOST helpful. As is obvious, part of this is to try to figure out what's already possible in the system so I don't try to fix what isn't broken - I don't want my ignorance that X is possible already to make me try to come up with a way to do X when it already exists.

 

I will spend a few hours re-reading the replies, and then post back.

 

Thanks again, you guys rock!

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Pick a few of the desired builds' date=' provide the Special Effect and a mundane wording of the desired result and I'll show you how the process of creating a Power works in the Hero System.[/quote']

 

I appreciate that, kind sir. Will take you up on that in the morning, if I may - thanks.

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Let me possibly be more clear by highlighting the reasons for asking these particular questions:

 

A power that resurrects you after you have died, which has NO way of being prevented, no "True Death"

• A power that resurrects you after you have died, which has NO way of being prevented, no "True Death"

I saw the resurrection power under healing, can you arrange it to NOT have the True Death limitation? Perhaps one would have to build it not from Healing?

Mental Speech to any individual regardless of range or prior contact. You just think of the person you want to communicate mentally and boom, you are. (Assume a willing participant)

As a fiction staple, was wondering if this was covered because of the unlimited range and no prior contact - I didn't see a power that would allow for this.

Your eyes glow, providing enough illumination for you and others to see in the dark by. This effect continues even after your character has died.

This is to test whether one can build powers that still function even after character death.

You want to make it rain over the whole city.

Can you build a power to do this over such a large area with a limited number of CP that characters normally get?

You want to make it rain everywhere on earth.

Same. It's exploring the functional limit of what can be achieved with traditional character point levels.

You can become completely invisible to all senses, including any equipment or clothes you are wearing, including weapons, including the use of powers. You and all your stuff are also desolid. You can also attack other people with your weapons normally, although your weapon cannot be seen (nor can the blood on it.) They cannot grab your weapon, as it is desolid, although it still does damage. Any bullets, paint, smoke etc flow completely through you.

This is an extreme example of someone who cannot be detected or seemingly stopped, but who can still get you. The only piece of this that I think I know is that with Desolid one would have to purchase one's attacks at +2 - not sure how that works for weapons attacks. (some of these questions are because I haven't read the 600 page book yet) for example - I assume that weapon attacks can be built as either a basic characteristic roll without a skill, or a skill roll based on the weaopon, or ask a power like an HKA - but if built as a skill or characteristic based ability, how do you apply the +2? This is a complex example that I think would illuminate many aspects of the system.

You can project Images to every sense group.

Are there a limited number of sense groups? How many are there? I didn't see in the book a listing of them, although so far I have been skimming and upon reading from cover to cover may find such a list.

You can project Images to every sense group, and anyone witnessing the Images have no chance at all to recognize the Image is a Fake.

This is about how do you guarantee something which asks you to make a check normally.

You have a power, such as an Energy Blast, that cannot be Drained, Dispelled, or otherwise dimished or suppressed.

This is about, how do you protect powers, and is that protection overcome-able or absolute.

You cannot take damage or other negative effects (like pain or distractions) from the environment, regardless of where you are, nor do you have any needs for sustenance, food, air, sleep, and the like.

This is about using LifeSupport possibly, but taking it to cover all such kind of issue, not just ones that are listed. In other words, how do you get blanket coverage for ALL environments, even those you can't imagine right now?

Nothing you do costs Endurance.

I know that there is a +1/2 advantage for powers that does this, how do you apply it to your whole character sheet?

You can move a star with the power of your telekinetic mind.

Another "can this be done" for limited points kind of question. Or to put it another way, how mmuch mass maximum can you move with 300 points or so in Telekinesis? Can Megascale apply?

You can teleport precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.

This is not just about a long range, but a very high degree of precision while teleporting a looooong way away.

You can teleport some else against their will precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.

And this is about using that ability on others with the same precision, guessing that this would be the same power as above with Useable Against Others.

You wish to take an Energy Blast with not just No Normal Defense, but with No Defense - in others words, without needing to define and powers or circumstances as the defense.

Another question about how to accomplish the effect of something in the book that comes with a limiting factor, but not have the limiting factor.

The ability for a character's mind to jump back in time up to 2 minutes. The world is put back up to two minutes, but the character still knows what happened. The character is the *only* one who know what happened in the future timeline that now may not occur.

I have no idea how you do this - Time Travel in the book I think jumps your whole body back, but the way I describe it above, if you lost your arm you could jump back and your arm would no longer be unattached.

What if it was up to two days? Longer?

Just curious.

Resurrection of friends or "non bad guys" who have died in an area in the past 30 minutes.

This would be to see not only how one resurrect's others, but how to do it only to select categories of people in an area... Perhaps Healing/Resurrection with Useable Against Others and Area of Effect, possibly Selective?

Performing two full actions simultaneously in a single phase. Such as teleporting into to an area and then using an Energy Blast.

I have no idea how to perform simultaneous actions in this game.

Teleporting a visible item or visible piece or component of an item somewhere within sight, such as teleporting the plastique out of the bomb.

I guess teleportation by default allows you to teleport items around you? Like teleporting someone's gun to the other side of the room? Does it permit to teleport a component piece of an item, like the grille of a car (or the visible plastique of the bomb?)

A power that makes the character receive a +2 to all rolls that they make.

Another ability I don't know how to recreate. Maybe a VPP representing extra ability that simply adds X character points to each thing one has to roll for? This one's a real stumper for me.
I'll throw a new one out there - making it so you can't roll lower than than a 8, for example - how do you arrange that?

Thanks again to all the helpful folks.

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Ghost angel, thanks for the yes/no's - on the one's that were yes's, how would one potentially build them?

 

Trebuchet, I am simply going to ask you to do one of to things: if you don't like my questions, then feel free to ignore them and not answer - or better yet, if you want to be helpful, then answer them.

 

But I am getting really really tired of having you attack me for asking questions and posing thoughts and ideas. It's getting to the point where I will need to determine which is the accepted solution on these boards, report you for moderation or attack back.

 

This is my process, if you either don't like it or don't approve, I don't really care. Either help or get out of the way. Else, I will need to take appropriate action.

 

The limits of my civility have been reached, sir.

 

To most of the rest of you, I appreciate your help and ask you to continue with your kind words and helpful answers. Thanks, all!

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Is there any particular reason you see a need to stretch and/or break the Hero system? This isn't an atom; we don't need to hit the system with absurd energies to see how things work. You learn how the system works by building things. I suggest you build a bit before you start looking at ways to bend things.

 

What would help me most right now is if anyone can help answer the above build questions.

 

Thanks.

OK, first of all, I'm *that guy* - you'know, the one that caused the furor over on the Absolute Ability thread. Through all the controversy and conflict, a lot of really interesting ideas have come out of it - but before I go further with the third idea that completely replaces the other two, I need to do so "research", with the help of you kind people who are well versed in this system and how to employ it.

 

In short, before I go forward, I need to know which, if any, of the following abilities can accurately be represented in the Hero System, and how one would mechanically do that. Ultimately, for each of the following, I just need to know if the full functionality can be done exactly as presented, and if so, how.

 

I am grateful for any assistance on these matters.

 

 

• A power that resurrects you after you have died, which has NO way of being prevented, no "True Death"
  
• Mental Speech to any individual regardless of range or prior contact. You just think of the person you want to communciate mentally and boom, you are. (Assume a willing participant)
  
• Your eyes glow, providing enough illumination for you and others to see in the dark by. This effect continues even after your character has died.
  
• You want to make it rain over the whole city.
  
• You want to make it rain everywhere on earth.
  
• You can become completely invisible to all senses, including any equipment or clothes you are wearing, including weapons, including the use of powers. You and all your stuff are also desolid. You can also attack other people with your weapons normally, although your weapon cannot be seen (nor can the blood on it.) They cannot grab your weapon, as it is desolid, although it still does damage. Any bullets, paint, smoke etc flow completely through you.
  
• You can project Images to every sense group.
  
• You can project Images to every sense group, and anyone witnessing the Images have no chance at all to recognize the Image is a Fake.
  
• You have a power, such as an Energy Blast, that cannot be Drained, Dispelled, or otherwise dimished or suppressed.
  
• You cannot take damage or other negative effects (like pain or distractions) from the environment, regardless of where you are, nor do you have any needs for sustenance, food, air, sleep, and the like.
  
• Nothing you do costs Endurance.
  
• You can move a star with the power of your telekinetic mind.
  
• You can teleport precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.
  
• You can teleport some else against their will precisely anywhere - even exactly 3,832 miles, 187 feet, and 4.7763 inches away.
  
• You wish to take an Energy Blast with not just No Normal Defense, but with No Defense - in others words, without needing to define and powers or circumstances as the defense.
  
• The ability for a character's mind to jump back in time up to 2 minutes. The world is put back up to two minutes, but the character still knows what happened. The character is the *only* one who know what happened in the future timeline that now may not occur.
  
• What if it was up to two days? Longer?
  
• Resurrection of friends or "non bad guys" who have died in an area in the past 30 minutes.
  
• Performing two full actions simultaneously in a single phase. Such as teleporting into to an area and then using an Energy Blast.
  
• Teleporting a visible item or visible piece or component of an item somewhere within sight, such as teleporting the plastique out of the bomb.
  
• A power that makes the character receive a +2 to all rolls that they make.
  

Thanks a bunch guys, seeing how this plays out will help me better understand what the system can and can't do, as well as how the system handles such extreme abilities.