sindyr

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

Wow! A lot of very interesting posts on the thread since I had to take a break. I wrote a response, something that may fix a bunch of issues. A bunch still remain, most notable what Sean Waters noted as costing such abilities appropriately when different games have different point levels. What was well balanced for one level of game is too cheap or too expensive in another. I have the ruminations of a modification to the system below that could accounts for this issue by combining the system below with Chris’ idea of scalars (mundane, hero, super, cosmic, etc.) but I need to ruminate on it further. In the meanwhile, here’s what I have done:

Introduction and Please Don’t Hurt Me.

OK, posted the original idea and, well, let’s just say it wasn’t well received. Upon reflection, I think a *part* of that was seemingly because of my unfortunate choice of the word *absolute* to represent the base idea. People seemed to have at least two main issues with that word and concept.

First of all, people kept focusing on what happens when two Absolute Abilities are in opposition. It kept being a problem for people that one Absolute would have to be trumped by the other – if it can be trumped, how can it be Absolute, they ask.

Secondly, after doing a bit more research, I find that in several places in the Hero System Steve Long comes right out and says that having Absolutes is a bad idea. I suppose my choice of that word for these abilities must have seemed disrespectful, when that was not my intent.

So I have decide to not only rename the quality I am trying to achieve, but to re-present it, in a hopefully better way. Let me (re)state my intention and goals, starting with what I will NOT be doing:

I will NOT be implementing this new add-on system willy-nilly, or incautiously. I will NOT be trying to run before I can crawl. I DO realize that I have a lot of learning on how to use the existing system before going full-bore on this add-on idea, and I likewise realize that in the course this I may find out that what I am learning in this system may require some changes or redesigns of the add-on system.

As evidence of my commitment to learning the system, let me confess that I just spent around $500 picking up 2 Hero System 5th Ed Revised Hardbound Core Rulebooks, 2 Hero System Resource Kits, The entire Ultimate Series (I think) including the Ultimate Brick, Metamorph, Speedster, Martial Artist, Energy Projector, Mnetalist, Mystic, Skill,and Vehicle; also, the Character Creation Handbook, Combat Handbook, Until SuperPowers Database I and II, Equipment Guidebook, and for flavor Demon: Servants of Darkness, Reality Storm: When Worlds Collide, and Teen Champions. Oh, and some Hero Dice for good measure.

Did I leave anything out that I should add? (Don’t so much need content sourcebooks like Freedom City or whatnot, doing our own worlds.)

What I now have in over 12 inches of books I need to read, and read them I shall. For, you see, it is my belief that of all the options including M&M, Silver Age Sentinels, MEGS/Blood of Heroes, MURPG, Wild Talents, and Aberrant (to name a few), the Hero System stands out as seeming to be the best system for superhero gaming. It is the Ultimate Gamer’s Toolkit in two equally important ways.

Firstly, it contains countless mechanics to build the superhero you want. But secondly, and (in my opinion) more importantly, it is fully extensible in that if you come up with an idea that isn’t covered you can add mechanics easily to integrate your new idea into the system.

Because that’s the thing about toolkits – different jobs, and indeed different craftsmen, will require somewhat different tools in their kits. The Hero System seems to do an amazing jobs at provide a vast array of tools for use – but no written system can answer everyone’s needs, some is bound to come up with something that for whatever reason is not covered by the existing system.

That’s where my add-on comes in.

Let me try to state as clearly as I can, the goals I am trying to accomplish with this add-on.

The Hero System is built on the idea that Character Points, in general, buy a quantity of ability. The best example is Teleportation: 2 CP for every 1” range of Teleportation. In Hero as existing, if you want more range, you spend more CP.

However, if one wants to design a character that can teleport anywhere *regardless* of range, what is one to do? Let me be clear, the intention is to build a character to whom range is not relevant when he teleports.

There are only a few options in the existing system, and none of them accomplish my goals:

One could tell the player that Teleportation can be bought with increased range, or even MegaScale, but that it is simply not possible for the player to make a character with a teleportation power that ignores range. This obviously doesn’t accomplish my goal of making it possible.

One could perhaps “lock in” what range would be needed to do the most long distance teleport imagined, and then tell the player that should he buy that much teleportation, he could expect to go anywhere. The problem with this is that if the game world changes, or the GM changes, or the character is brought into another game, all bets are off. Another issue with this approach is that to me its klunky, a kludge – fixing the universe so that the character gets *effectively* unlimited teleport instead of simply giving that ability to the character in the first place.

No, if a player wants to build a character that can teleport anywhere *regardless* of range, I want to have a tool in my toolkit to give him exactly that, at the right price. And that tool simply doesn’t exist in the Hero system as far as I can see.

And let’s not get led astray by the above example – it’s not just about the player that wants unlimited range on his teleport, but the player that wants his sword to ignore all defenses, or the player who wants to be able to take a probability and make it a certainty, or a player who wants to have an invulnerability that no attack can breach, however high in dice. It’s about power that operates at a high level, that bypasses any power or restrictions at a lower level.

This brings us to a core fact, not just about Hero system, but well-designed RPGs in general. The goal of this system cannot be to make unbeatable powers. For every amazing power, there is an equally amazing counter-power. Let me be crystal clear about this: I am NOT trying to allow powers to be created that are Absolute in the fullest sense, and unstoppable, unbeatable, unlimited, etc. The very nature of powers in conflict means that eventually you will have two supposedly Absolute powers in conflict in such a way that only one can triumph, which immediately call into question just how Absolute the power that lose was.

No, that is NOT the goal here. What IS the goal, is to create a higher order of powers, powers that trump lower-order ones, powers that can have aspects that are not limited to a certain range of values, powers that can ignore or trump certain mechanics.

So if the brick hero Granite has a higher order of Invulnerability, nothing of the standard order of powers and abilities is going to hurt him. If the blaster Pulsar has a higher order of Energy Projection, he may be able to ignore all defenses and force fields – at least until he runs into a villain with a higher order defensive ability.

I tried calling abilities with these higher order aspects Absolute Abilities, and what a problem that seemed to cause. But I need *some* name that indicates the ultimate nature of these abilities and powers. For round two, I am using the concept of Perfection. I am not wedded to that term, but it to date is the best I can come up with. It evidences a superlative nature, but doesn’t seem to guarantee results the way “Absolute” did – after all, you can execute a Perfect dodge and still get hit if the attack was one that NO dodge no matter how perfect could avoid. I hope that the concept of Perfection succeeds in naming the higher order nature while not causing readers cognitive dissonance in their expectations. Perfections – that is, powers and abilities with one or more Perfect Aspect – are amazing and trump most difficulties, EXCEPT when even Perfection is not enough or when facing an opposing Perfection. So without further ado, here’s the add-on, rewritten and reimagined:

Perfection and Perfect Aspects. A higher order of power in the Hero System.

Homage paid to the Primal Order, which is a source of deep inspiration for ultimate abilities.

Note – there are ways to accomplish many of the same effects as Perfection though Advantages. Where the use of an Advantage is cheaper and accomplishes the same result, we assume that people will forego the use of Perfection. Perfection will be used to accomplish effects that are either too expensive or impossible under the current system.

A Perfection is a power or ability with one or more Perfect Aspects. While some of the following may overlap, and many of the examples given vary widely in cost, Perfect Aspects include:

1.Perfect Choice: You may choose any value for one of the abilities aspects at any time, including zero, infinity, or anywhere in between.

This is very straightforward, it simply means that a single value such as range, damage, weight, etc, can be instead of what it was, any value the player wishes at any moment.

2.Perfect Action: You may choose a scope under which the ability would normally have limited or no effect, in which it now has full effect

This can range from a teleport that can take you to places it normally couldn’t, like other universes or “where the kidnapped girl is being held” or “any mirror”, to an attack that can’t have its damage reduced, to an action like a to hit roll which now cannot fail, to an attack that can affect any entities, even desolid ones. These actions and aspects can still be potentially limited by other directly conflicting Perfections.

3.Perfect Preservation: You may choose an aspect of the character, and a scope that could affect that aspect. That scope can have no effect on that aspect.

This can include a wide range of protections and defenses, such as True Invulnerability vs Fire, or protection from being mentally manipulated, or cannot die (but can possibly take damage).

4.Perfect Application: You may choose to have an effect occur upon a given trigger, which normally would not be possible.

A Catch-all for something that is not covered by the first 3 Perfections and something the system doesn’t cover either. For example, a power that triggers every Sunday, even if the character is dead and gone.

The above four kinds of Perfect Aspects are not necessarily exhaustive nor mutually incompatible. There may be overlap amongst them. Ultimately, as far as Character Point pricing, it does not strictly matter what categories of Perfect Aspect are partaken of, but how wide the scope of the Aspect is. The process for calculating the character point cost follows. Please note that I am especially interested in discussing improvements to the costing process for these abilities.

Perfections are either applied and linked to an existing ability (which gains one or more Aspects of Perfection) or grant new stand-alone abilities. In either case, the cost is the same: 50 base points, plus an Advantage of up to +1½ per Perfect Aspect desired, minimum one. Each aspect must be well-defined by the player, as must be the base effect if not linked to an existing ability or power. The level of each Advantage(s) applied is completely up to the GM based on the GM’s judgment on how extreme and powerful and wide-ranging the aspect being asked for is.

Again, the process is simple: The player defines any and all Perfect Aspects, not only by naming them, but by explicitly describing in what ways they trump or change things. Then the GM assigns each Perfect Aspect an Advantage rating, up to + 1½ (or in some cases even more), based on how much each Aspect asks for.

Limitations can also apply to Perfections if the scope is extremely narrow or only available at certain times or in certain conditions.

Here are some potential guidelines. Throughout these guidelines I posit what a GM might judge something to be worth, but obviously each GM is free and encouraged to deviate from the below judgments in any way they wish:

• A player wants a super-tough Brick. He asks for Perfect Choice on the value of damage he takes – allowing him to reduce any incoming damage to zero. He further limits the Perfection by saying that it is only available to him when he is in direct sunlight.
  

The GM may potentially rate the scope and nature of this Perfect Aspect at +1. The Only In Direct Sunlight limitation may be a -½. Therefore the total cost is 50 base points starting cost multiplied by (1+1) = 100, divided by (1+½) = 67 points.

• Or, maybe the Brick chooses a different version of the power. Maybe he asks for a Perfection that prevents all physically harmful result (to the character) from having effect. He still limits the Perfection by saying that it is only available to him when he is in direct sunlight.
  

The GM may potentially rate the scope and nature of this Perfect Aspect at +1½ . The Only In Direct Sunlight limitation may be a -½. Therefore the total cost is 50 base points starting cost multiplied by (1+1½) = 125, divided by (1+½) = 83 points.

• Finally, someone who wanted to make a character who couldn’t be affected by any affects at all without the permission of the character might ask for the following Perfection: the ability to negate all adversarial effects of any kind, including physical, mental, supernatural, etc. He still chooses the limitation of it only being available when he is in direct sunlight.
  

The GM may potentially rate the scope and nature of this Perfect Aspect at +2 . The Only In Direct Sunlight limitation may be a -½. Therefore the total cost is 50 base points starting cost multiplied by (1+2) = 150, divided by (1+½) = 100 points.

• To go back to the teleporter example, let’s say that the teleporter in question decides that he will buy his own range, but he does not want any barriers such as a hardened Force Field to stop him. He may define the Perfection thusly: All in-game effects that would interfere with the teleporter arriving at his destination are prevented from so effecting the teleporter’s power.
  

The GM may potentially rate the scope and nature of this Perfect Aspect at +½. Therefore the total cost is 50 base points starting cost multiplied by (1+½) = 75 points.

Note that this Perfection does NOT grant the ability to teleport – one must still purchase the teleport power, paying for whatever effects (such as range) that one wishes to.

• To take the teleporter to the extreme, what if he wants Perfect Range *and* Perfect Penetration? Well, first as usual the players has to define the explicit nature of the Perfect Aspects: The first Perfect Aspect is the same as above, namely that “all in-game effects that would interfere with the teleporter arriving at his destination are prevented from so effecting the teleporter’s power.” The second Perfect Aspect is even more radical: that the character can use his Teleport to go anywhere conceivable that is real. The player may explicitly define the second Aspect as “the character can teleport to any location anywhere in any place that he can imagine or conceive that exists, without limit”
  

It should be noted that the second Perfect Aspect goes far beyond simply permitted unlimited range. It permits the character to teleport to a destination in other universes, and to a destination as vaguely defined as “where the kidnappers stashed the kidnappee” or “the second nearest pub serving Rolling Rock Lite” or even “where Lord Voldemort is”. Of course, if there is no kidnappee, if Rolling Rock lite does not exist, or Lord Voldemort is dead, the teleport may simply fail. Nevertheless, this is a very powerful teleport ability.

The GM of course, prices it accordingly: The first Perfect Aspect is still rated as a +½, but the second perhaps as a +2!! The total cost of the Perfection would therefore be 50 x (1 +½ +2) = 50x3½ = 175. A very expensive power, but a very powerful one.

• An energy blaster might want a different Perfection, defined thusly: All effects that would reduce or eliminate the amount of damage taken by the target by the EB are prevented.
  

The GM might rate that at +1, therefore 50x(1+1) = 100 character points for a Perfect Energy Blast that cannot be diminished by defenses or abilities.

Again, I want to strongly caution that ALL the point totals above are speculative. After deeply learning the Hero System I may come to understand that 50 base points for a perfection is too little (or too much), or that the Advantages need raising (or lowering.)

Now, on to potential conflict amongst Perfections:

In some circumstances you may have two different Perfections potentially having interplay between each other. The correct response is to analyze the interplay for any true conflict. If any is found, there are two options: either the more defensive, protective, or less altering Perfection takes precedence, or both Perfections are ignored for this exchange for the scope of the conflicting domains only. The GM should choose one of the methods and inform the players when first employing this system.

Another potential option which I will mention, but not attempt to analyze or explore, is the idea of multiple orders of magnitude of Perfections. For example, while it is conceivable that a person with a sword of Perfect Damage might be at a standstill with a person with a Force Field of Perfect Resistance, if the swordsman’s sword was actually a second order Perfection, instead of just a first order Perfection, perhaps the sword would ignore the first order Perfection Force Field entirely. Food for thought. Personally, I would probably keep it simpler, only have one order of Perfection – you either have it or you don’t.

I was end with a few points which if read, listened to, and employed, can save a TREMENDOUS amount of grief and energy. Herein are also some responses to the posts made since I last posted:

• I believe that the Hero System is the ultimate super RPG, and as such, will be using it as a basis for all the super RPG games I run or play in. It is however not perfect for all uses by all gamers as is, which is why everyone comes up with House Rules or Add-ons. So please do not present me with the false dichotomy of either using the system as is or using a different system. I choose the THIRD option, using *this* system with some custom modifications.

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• The goal for this add-on is permitting the players to have abilities that trump the mechanics of other standard order abilities. Please do not waste either of our times by trying to argue that such a goal is wrong (for that is a matter of taste and opinion) or that no one wants such an add-on (because *I* do.)

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• I hope that by dropping the use of the term “Absolute” people will no longer be hung up on the fact that these abilities are not guaranteed to work absolutely. It was never my intention to create abilities that were truly Absolute, just ones that would rarely if ever be impeded – as well as ones that go far beyond the limits of the current system.

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• This add-on system has a certain complexity to it, that’s because it’s trying to implement a universal solution. I am open to less complex ways of doing this, but any system that would replace the one I present here would have to accomplish the same goals.

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• Again, the point costs here are NOT final, and may be tweaked as I learn more about the economy and value of character points in this game.

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• If the term “Perfect Ability” causes cognitive problems for anyone, then please suggest a different term. I can cut and paste with the best of them.

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• If having these kinds of higher order power and mechanic trumping abilities in a supers game does not appeal to you, then do not use it. Please refrain from trying to convince me that it should not appeal to me.

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• The main challenge to making this system not be broken is to make it expensive enough to make people think twice about buying into a Perfection while not making it so expensive that it makes no sense for players to explore these options. Put another way, a middle ground needs to be found between, for example, making Perfect invulnerability so cheap that it makes no sense to buy PD, ED, or other normal defense or so expensive that few would consider buying the Perfection. The point-of-purchase where buying a Perfection should make sense ideally is where you would have to invest a ton of points into a set of character qualities – such as teleporting across the universe. Know that I am aware of this delicate balance, and that my goal is to find that spot where the cost of the perfection is an investment and commitment to a central truth of one’s character, without the character point cost being egregious to the point that it prevents one from continuing to have multiple sides and areas of effectiveness.

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• At the end of the day, it is up to the player to explicitly define his Perfect Aspects, and it is up to the GM to assist him in so doing accurately, as well as to approve and cost out such abilities. If the player envisions his character having a certain ability, but completely misdefines it, that it the player’s mistake and as such, he will get an ability that does not work as he imagined. Of course, a good GM will sit down with him and possibly help him redefine (and re-price) the mistaken Perfect Aspect.

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• Double Perfection (and triple, etc) may or may not exist depending on the GM. As I mentioned above, I will probably employ the add-on with one level of Perfections only, and when there is actual direct conflict, the more defensive or static ability will win. Therefore, much of the time, a defensive Perfection will trump an offensive one, requiring the user of the offensive Perfection to get creative.

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• Hugh Neilson mentioned I should call these abilities Ultras – in fact, that was one of my first thoughts. However, aren’t multipower slots called ultras? So I narrowed in on calling them Perfections and Perfect Aspects. By the way, Hugh, one of your responses was I thought well thought out, with a lot of meat. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Rather than reply to it in detail, to start with, I am going to try to “relaunch” the idea with the stuff above, which may not solve all the past issues, but may solve a bunch of them.

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• There have been many posts wanting me to go into more detail about why I find the FH system for handling Absolutes unpalatable. Maybe that is a moot point now that I have done away with absolutes, or maybe not. In any case, I will try to address that on another day, when I can devote a multihour block of time and energy to try to answer those questions.

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• Sean Waters suggested limiting these abilities to one per character. I think there obviously needs to be some limiting factor – I wonder if the point cost itself should be sufficient, but I guess another issue is games built on different costs. I will have to think more on this.

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• Chris Goodwin’s concept of Scale is very interesting. Maybe these abilities are cheap at a lower scale, but these lower scale abilities are ignored by effects and supers of a higher Scale. However, while we may be able to cost out low scale (mundane?) invulnerability for cheap, and high scale (cosmic?) invulnerability expensively, how do we cost out for example the unlimited range of a teleport, which is not a conflicting attribute? Or maybe the scale of that attribute is related to the scale of the game setting? IE, a game that takes place only of the earth would be super-scale unlimited teleport, which would have to be upgraded to cosmic-scale unlimited teleport in the game world changed to a cosmic game? This could be a free upgrade granted by the GM on account of the world change? Just thinking out loud here, no actual proposals, just… interesting point, Chris.

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• Whether one hero in comic history trumped another hero in comic history I am not sure brings anything to the table. I do not think for me it’s about telling stories that have already been told, but about if I can tell new stories that I would like to.

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• Sean Waters also posted: “You either have to give them a fixed price, which means they only really balance for one 'point total' of campaign OR you scale the price to the campaign which is fine, but as the campaign gets more expensive either the absolute gets left behind or you have to amend the price, which is messy.” I think that he makes a very good point, and I am very grateful for this constructive criticism – I think that this may point back at Chris’ idea of scalars. I will reply directly to that well thought out post at my next herogames forum sitting.

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• As far as using Hero System terms in my language – I need tutoring, please feel free to let me know how best to say the same thing that I am saying know, but using the right Hero System vocabulary.
  

Thanks guys. Know that especially now, with my large buy-in to the Hero System I don’t think I am going anywhere, I just don’t often have many hours for posting.

Re: What costing for noncombat movement without penalty?

How do you add megascale to noncombat movement?

For example, if I have megascale flight, and want to have the same speed when I am in combat, how do I price that out?

I am getting a sneaking suspicion it is one of those things we are Not Meant to Do, and as such would have a ridiculous point cost.

PS. Did 4th Edition have this combat and noncombat movement?

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

OK guys, I nhave to take some time off now. Gonna consider some of the good ideas and criticisms. I think one of the issues is that I called these Abilities "Absolute" and that is confusing people and causing people to see problems in accomplishing some things I never was trying to do.

Gonna rework and rethink the system when I get a chance, as well as ponder a few alternate approaches, such as charging a percentage or a flat fee, or an adder.

Thanks all. Might not be back for a few days or so, but see you when I do.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

I just discovered multi-quoting, yay!

You are not going to get it without skewing point balance (which is at the heart of HERO).

 

If you want a cost for infinite damage then the answer, in HERO terms, is infinte points. Otherwise you want to cost by campaign - so, as has been suggested, cost an absolute power at some proportion of the character cost that is going to dissuade a player for opting for more than one at a time.

 

So, you will not get a fixed cost but a cost fixed by campaign. I would suggest 1/3 of points, so if the GM says you have 350 points to spend and you want an absolute ability then he writes that absolute ability on your character sheet and you have 240 points left to spend on everything else.

 

Doc

How do I handle different point costs for Absolutes with different scopes or different numbers of Absolute Aspects?

You set the maximum allowable range, (Anywhere on Earth, Earth to Moon, Within the Galaxy etc) add +X (2-5) levels and it becomes infinite range.

 

You set the maximum allowable penetration add +X levels and it becomes always penetrates.

 

The idea is universal and it scales. It does require you to define campaign limits a little more rigorously than you may have normally but if you are allowing absolutes you should have wanted to do that anyway.

I think that this is another form of the "Fix the Universe Instead of the Character" fallacy, which I address at several points on this thread, and specifically here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1679263&posted=1#post1679263

Basically, while that is one solution, it's not what I am looking for.

So in essence, you want absolutes that aren't actually absolute?

 

This is the core of this argument, I think. If you allow actual absolutes, then you also allow paradoxes. If - as you have done - you build a system for ranking absolutes, then they are not absolute - at which point it's not celar what the utility is.

 

To take your own example, with the teleporter who wants to teleport anywhere - if someone (anyone) builds a forcewall that cannot be teleported though, then you still have to tell him "no".

 

So it looks like you've gone to a great deal of trouble and introduced potential balance issues for ...... well, for nothing, really. You still don't have absolutes, you still have relative levels of power. You've just expanded the upper end of that power.

 

In the end, if you want absolutes in game, then you have to accept that it's always going to be a GM fiat deal and then live the paradoxes.

This is a misunderstanding, I am trying to create "mechanical" absolutes, not "dictionary" ones:

As far as I can see, this is another form of the "It's a game, not a dictionary" fallacy, which I address at several points on this thread, and specifically here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1679263&posted=1#post1679263

There's a point here: many of the "absolute powers" discussed can be built using the rules as is. Your stated goal, an is unattainable. No such thing can be built (in Hero, or any system) because more than one total absolute can't exist: this paradox has been recognised for thousands of years (or on the Hero board for several years )

 

cheers, Mark

Again, my goal is to build a *mechanical* Absolute, which is completely attainable. It is not vital that such an Absolute is never trumped, just never trumped by non-Absolutes.

Just to make sure you understand' date=' everytime you start a hero campaign one of the defaults is that you define campaign limits for players and that the suggestion that's being made is that by exceeding the defined limit by a set amount the character is then able to use the ability as an absolute and not just as defined by the points.[/quote']

 

Yup, but I still need to know relative costing for different scope or depth Absolutes.

 

Do you really anticipate that your players will ask you for an Absolute ability? Does the idea of saying "No" to a player cause you so much terror that you have to anticipate accommodating anything they might even remotely ask for? (Although I strongly suspect your real intent here is to create abilities which can always defeat your opponents; be they player or GM. You want a trump to anything.) There are already plenty of system-legal combinations in Hero that should seldom if ever be permitted because they are unbalancing. Congratulations; you've now created one that by definition will be unbalancing.

 

Have at it, man. All I can say is thank God I'm not in a campaign with you as a player or as GM.

 

Sorry man, that came across as one big "WAAAAAAAAA..."

 

As far as I can see, this is another form of the "People should only want to game like me" fallacy, which I address at several points on this thread, and specifically here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1679263&posted=1#post1679263

 

 

Thanks.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

The FH solution seems best to me.

 

If the character has purchased enough (whatever) to have an absolute value in a given game world, there's no need to go farther. The character will never leave that world and so never encounter a situation in which the compact is broken.

Awesome, then you should use the FH solution.

However, I still need to accomplish my stated goal, as the FH solution does not seem best to me.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

There have actually been several suggestions about how to make it work, it's just that apparently the idea that absolutes should be scalable is unacceptable.

 

The problem is that non-scaling absolutes of the nature being discussed leads to poor game balance and is contrary to the stated assumption that these abilities would be rare and interact infrequently.

I am not sure what "scalable absolute" means, could you say more about this?

The reason that conflicts would be rare is because I don't imagine a lot of NPCs wasting points on Absolutes when they can just exploit a different angle. And I don't think most players will pursue it, though I want the option available. Ultimately, I actually don't expect the system to get much use, apart from a handful of PCs and NPCs. (Apart from playtesting, that is.)

And the reason that they will interact infrequently is that the majority of the time they will not be triggerred in the same moment on the same target.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

That's a philosophical difference more than anything. I do understand where you're coming from; I just don't see any need for (and lots of reasons to dislike) such a capability in a role-playing game.

Actually, I can demonstrate the need for it: Me and my gaming group want this tool in our toolkit. This is again the "People should only want to game like me" fallacy.

There's no precedent I'm aware of for this kind of absolute in the source material and it creates a host of problems in a role playing game; the largest of which is it creates tremendous problems for the GM to create a suitable challenge to characters possessing such Absolute abilities as you've proposed. You've left it no Achilles heel; no flaws for those characters who lack some sort of Absolute to exploit. (Even Superman had kryptonite.) That's inevitably going to mean that the only realistic way to challenge such a character is going to be another character with an Absolute; meaning these kinds of conflicts are probably going to be a lot more common that you seem to think they will be. It's not a problem for the GM who has infinite points to design bad guys; but it's going to be a major one for players. If you actually playtest this in a campaign I think you'll find it far more problematical than you expect.

I am open to that being proven to me in playtesting. However, I can think of at least one good response - if a character in invulnerable, simply don't run a game that depends on him being NOT so. Instead, threaten those around him, threaten his principles, make it be about character growth, not fisticuffs, or the challenge of inspiring others to fight back. In fact, there are so many ways in good drama that power can be a weakness, that I am not sure why this would be a problem.

Think of this another way. A player takes true and Absolute Invulnerability - that player is telling the GM, either consciously or not, that the struggle to survive is NOT what the play wants to experience in the game. So make his part of the game about something else.

We can game more deeply than just bar-room brawls.

If you're bound and determined to use this in your game, then I think the idea upthread of having it be a percentage of total character points rather than a fixed cost has a lot of merit. 33% or 50% of total character points seems about right.

 

In the meantime, keep the ideas coming. Just because we didn't like this one doesn't mean you won't have the next Great Idea.

I love that you ended on a positive note - bless your heart. I have not rules out the cost of a percentage, although that makes the same power cost different for different characters. I also have the issue of charging different point for absolutes with different scopes.

But thank you for the continuing feedback.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

Most of us feel your absolutes are not good gaming' date=' so why waste energy "making them work"? [/quote']

 

Fine, just also don't waste energy coming in here being a wet blanket.

 

Or to put another way, you are obviously putting energy into posting, why not try to be helpful?

 

If you read the posts they're actually VERY constructive. They explain in detail why this is a bad idea.

 

Not so much. Most of the posts say little more than "Absolutes Bad! Must Smash!." A much smaller number point out some issues with my implementation of a solutions. Not a single post here has demonstrated (or even tried to) why it's wrong for my gaming group to try to add a feature we want to our toolkit for gaming.

 

Probably because that would be like berating someone for liking pistachio because everyone else likes chocolate.

 

In other words, dumb.

 

So you're saying that because you spent 500 points, it should trump anything even if the other guy spent a 1000 points? How does that possibly make sense? They way things are now, generally speaking, the person who has more power (spent more points) wins. That doesn't seem like a fair way of doing things?

 

No, that's what *you* are saying. I fully expect ALL character to take advantage of the Absolute Ability system, to the extent they want to or should. And don't forget, the more points you have, the more Absolute you could potentially be. I haven't ruled out the possibility that a player with Doubly Absolute Defense could trump a Singly Absolute Offense - but don't go nuclear and off on a tangent, this is only a PROTO idea, and not yet part of any implementation.

 

I don't EVER want to play with a GM who won't tell a player no. That's just a recipie for disaster, but okay we'll play it this way. Tell me how you arbitrait the following scenario:

 

Player A wants a power where he can Teleport through anything.

Player B wants a Force Wall nothing can get through.

 

Which player do you plan on disappointing?

 

I never promised that either gets to be the best, just that they can trump any non-Absolute systems.

 

Think of it this way, if someone wants to trump badly enough, he sinks a LOT of points into getting an Absolute Ability. The same for the defender.

 

So the question is, does the character want to sacrifice spending the points on many other powers to be nigh unstoppable in one, or would the character rather have a wider assortment of options? Who wants it more badly? And unlike the current system, this Absolute system has a minimum entry cost. It's not like saying, how many levels of Hardened can I afford, it's more about committing to an idea because you can't do it halfway.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

OK. How about this for your game. Absolute is a 50 point adder. You purchase at least 50 points of a power and then you purchase the Absolute Adder for that. That power is then Absolute. If it is an Energy Blast affecting PD then it will ignore all PD that is not also purchased as Absolute.

 

If you have an absolute movement power then it will trump any non absolute movement power.

 

If you have an absolute skill then it will achieve its aim unless thwarted by an absolute obstacle.

 

This way you put a fifty point premium on absolute powers. If they come up against other absolute powers then the system works as normal with, for example, the energy blast counting points against the PD.

 

Now I have arbitrarily put the cost of an absolute power as 100 points (50 points of normal ability plus the absolute adder) You could make the buy in cost anything you think balanced and the cost of the adder the same.

 

If you want lots of superheroes to breeze past normals and normal attacks then a couple of absolute defences would be necessary and you might want to change the effects to something like a +2 advantage. That way you get lots of little absolute powers that mean that normal people are not an issue at all but the thought would have to be that you would be competing against villains who would also potentially have absolute powers, so the 1 absolute PD you have that allows you to ignore bullets is nothing against Grond with his absolute 80 STR.

 

More useful?

 

 

Doc

Useful and very very interesting. I was heading in this direction myself, but I ran into a snag.

Take Teleportation. If I spend 100 total points for Absolute Teleportation, do I get Absolute Range *and* Absolute Penetration? What if I only want one to be absolute? It seems to me that there should be a price differential between a Teleporter that has both Absolutes and one that noy has one.

Additionally, what about scope issues? Specifically, I want a character that Absolutely cannot be harmed by Fire. Someone else wants a character that Absolutely cannot be harmed by any Energy attack, including Fire. These two people should also be paying differing points.

Finally, what about an Absolute Ability that is not governed by an existing power? Not sure if I can come up with one off the top of my head... say Infinite Intelligence? Or being unkillable? (But still taking damage) There needs to be some way to add in Absolutes that have no ruling power. Course these could have a set cost.

I like the way your are thinking, and look forward to your response.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

Actually, it's called (appropriately enough) the Absolute Effects Rule.

 

Fantasy Hero p250-251 discusses it at length. With luck this whole section will make it into 6E in some form.

 

Others in this thread have gone over the basic premise. But the Rule shifts from Game To Game, has no real set point cost and is mostly a cooperative contract between all the people at the table.

I will of course do my due dilligence and go read it, but as I understand it, it doesn't fulfill my goals as it is not a character ability, but a world limit.

The reason many of us look at this as a generalized bad idea is through numerous discussions on the topic over the years. And some playtesting.

 

Absolute Effects with any kind of set cost do not scale well, and generally interact badly with gaming elements.

 

That said many of us have implemented Effective Absolutes in our games with some good results - and some bad.

I am not unmindful of the potential pitfalls, nor of the realities of character point economy, and that no spends more when they can get more for less.

I will be keeping a sharp eye on that, particularly with regard to powers that yield either Absolute Offense or Absolute Defense.

Also - as a side note - it would have been better if you'd utilized Hero Mechanics Game Terms in your OP instead of the language did use. We have a whole host of terms that cover what you're talking about that could have probably presented the idea better to us Mechanically in a Game Language we speak.

This makes me feel stupid and kick myself for making the conversation harder than it needed to be. Would you give me some examples, so that I can become educated and shift to the more appropriate for this venue terminology?

Thanks.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

I like it (at least as a house rule).

 

I would probably have made two Absolutes in conflict, that they would cancel each other out and resolve normally. But, that's my preference and a matter of style.

 

The next step is to playtest the rules with your players and see if they love it or hate it and why.

Yup, although there have been some really good criticisms about maybe some of the point costing being too cheap. I will have to think about that.

Thanks for the encouraging words.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

The answer is to tell him "If you purchase X levels of AP on your Teleport power' date=' then this will penetrate the maximum levels of Hardened I will permit in this game. As such, I will guarantee that Teleport cannot, under any circumstances, be blocked in this game.[/quote']

 

As far as I can see, this is another form of the "Fix the Universe Instead of the Character" fallacy, which I address at several points on this thread, and specifically here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1679263&posted=1#post1679263

 

Now let me pose a counter-question. You have now allowed the unblockable teleport. Player B wants to be able to Block it. Presumably, telling him that he either can’t afford it or that worse it’s not permitted is still the wrong way to GM. So what's your answer to Player B, remembering that Player A must have his unblockable teleport? One of the two cannot have what he wants.

 

As far as I can see, this is another form of the "It's a game, not a dictionary" fallacy, which I address at several points on this thread, and specifically here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1679263&posted=1#post1679263

 

 

To put in other words, my goal is to give the player that requests it an Absolute Ability, which can be counted on to be Absolute at *least* if no other Absolute Ability is in play.

 

 

I think perhaps my choice of the word "Absolute" is getting people confused, maybe I should have called them Ultra Abilities?

 

I see nothing wrong with telling a player either he can't afford something or is not permitted to have something. If we're playing a 25 + 25 low Fantasy game and you want to know how to have a character with a 6d6 Explosive KA Fireball, you can't afford it. It isn't in the games parameters. If you want to know how to have a Vulcan starship commander, my answer is that it's not permitted - that's not in the context of this game.

 

At the extreme, someone may want a character who "always wins in combat". That's an absolute. Is it a character that we want in our games? Likely not, so my answer is "No, you can't afford it and even if you could it would not be permitted." If I'm OK with it being in this game, then we work up a construct, and a cost, that makes it do-able.

 

As far as I can see, this is another form of the ""People should only want to game like me" fallacy, which I address at several points on this thread, and specifically here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1679263&posted=1#post1679263

 

I have been very clear (I think) as to what my goals here is - I want to know *how* to do this, not *if* I should.

 

Teleport is already scalable. The player who wants to "teleport any distance" needs to look at Megascale. He will still have a limited distance, but assuming I want such a power in my game, will be able to teleport anywhere that has any meaning to the game.

 

"He will still have a limited distance" - then it doesn't help me achieve my goals, does it?

 

This is just a different form of adder. And the math doesn't work, as already shown. You want to Teleport anywhere, so you pay 50 points. How is that fair to the character who paid 100 points for a Teleport power that travels far less distance?

 

I am not saying that my implementation is perfect or done. If you have a better way to accomplish *my* goals, I would love to hear it. Of course, even if you don't, I appreciate you pointing things like the above out, and I will take that under advisement.

 

One quick thing I just noticed, Teleporting anywhere is NOT 50 points, even by my pre-Alpha of a system, is it? Where did I say that? I think it would actually cost:

 

1.Starting cost, 50 points.

2.The ability’s general effect is to move the character and from his current location to another chosen location.

3.No special limitations.

4.The Ability is Absolute with respect to Range, the user can use any number for range without limit.

5.The GM rates the scope and nature of this at an appropriate level, perhaps +¾

6. 50 x (1+ ¾) = 87.5 points for teleporting without any specific range limit. Note you still have to buy TP with any costs for it for non range options.

 

The one described in FH, while arguably no simpler, works as well as any absolute can be expected to. You want to be affected by no possible adverse result? The cost should be remarkably close to that of enough defenses against all possible adverse results (PD, ED, Damage Resistance, Flash Def, Power Def, Mental Def, Lack of Weakness and Life Support - doubtless I missed some) to be immune to every possible adverse effect. No, you probably can't afford it. Most 150 point characters can't afford to spend 150 points on a single aspect of their character. No 100 point character can. Tough - you want a concept that is overpowered compared to your teammates.

 

I suspect most absolutes that are not so powerful can be made to fit the FH Absolute Effects structure at a more reasonable cost.

 

I guess that means FH does not accomplish my goals - perhaps we can now leave FH behind?

 

If I'm playing 1,000 point Galactic Champions? Well, I think I'd like an attack that Always Hits (+2) and Always Destroys Utterly (+2), so that's 250 points, plus 150 for "Utterly immune to all adverse effects, plus a 250 point "go anywhere, not blockable" movement power and a 250 point "sense anywhere, not blocakble" sensory ability. Now, what should I do with my remaining 100 points? This is shaping up to be a really fun game with every PC taking the above with one SFX or another.

 

This is the "straw man" fallacy. It does not demonstrate that people who want absolutes in their superhero games are wrong.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

As some of the same issues keep rearing their head again and again, let me try to be as effective as I can be in addressing them:

A) People keep suggesting that the solution to my problem is creating upper limits to the universe, which will make the character the best.

This has two problems: first, it doesn't let the player teleport to anyplace, regardless of range (unless I make sure the universe is small enough). Second, this "solution" has the qualities of fixing a hole in a table by recommending that the table user place their drink elsewhere. Changing the whole universe to ensures absolutes is way to kludgey for me.

If this suggestion is made in the future, I will simply refer to this as the "Fix the Universe Instead of the Character" solution, without having to type out the same response each time the suggestion is made.

People keep suggesting that Hero System works fine without Absolutes. However, that is a matter of opinion, and mine is that the Hero System is becoming my ultimate toolkit for running or playing Supers, and as such, I want it to be able to deliver on any request - I don't want my response to a player to be "well, this game didn't come with that tool to build that, so I guess you can't" fallacy.

If this suggestion is made in the future, since the suggester is in fact claiming that the fact that they do not use or want such a thing means that I have no reason to pursue it, I will refer to it as the "People should only want to game like me" fallacy.

C) People keep suggesting that the system as implemented is too complicated, and therefor not worth pursuing. However, this is false on two fronts, firstly, the unspoken assumption that there is no simpler way to do accomplish the goals, and secondly, that a complex solution invalidates the goals - if that were true, Hero System wouldn't be here.

If this is brought up in the future, I will refer to it as the "The solution is Complex, the question must be wrong" fallacy.

D) People keep saying that if two Absolute Abilities come into conflict with each other, it's possible that one will trump the other, which means the other isn't Absolute at all, which means that Absolutes aren't even possible. However, this too is a fallacy. The Absolutes I am designing are *mechanical* Absolutes, that can cause something to be Absolutely true when other Absolutes are not in play. The fact that when two Absolutes are in play that one may trump the other has not effect on the Absolute continuing to function as a *mechanical* Absolute. People making this mistake are confusing the wider use of the word Absolute with the precise use of it in game mechanic terms as I am employing it. It's like saying that anyone who isn't free is a slave, and anyone who has a job isn't free. It's a contextual mistake.

If this is brought up in the future, I will refer to this as the "It's a game, not a dictionary" fallacy, on account of people expecting Absolute Abilities to be more than just a game mechanic.

This is all I can think of now, will add others as they I see repetitious subjects arise.

Thanks all.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

Hmm, so if the OCV/DCV cap of the campaign is 13 and the GM allows himself a 2 point edge for 'special cases' then an OCV of 22 would always hit on an 18 or less, the call then the Absolute version a 25 OCV, reversing it a 22 DCV would only be hit on a 3 with the highest Villian OCV (15) so call a 25 DCV. Allow the players to purchase these absolutes higher if they wish (maybe up to +5 or 30 in this example) but they only need to roll if 2 'absolutes' collide.

 

Marksman: I aways hit!

Avoiditron: I'm never hit!

GM: Looks like Marksman finally need to roll.

Avoiditron: I dodge?

 

It only requires a minor house rule of not needing to roll when you've overwhelming advantage. That seems better than my % of points idea from earlier. Although % does answer the 'I don't have enough points/I have so many points issues'

I need a universal system that not only answers the above issue, but also the teleporter who wants infinite range and/or infinite penatratibility.

In short, there are many good ways within the system to design individual absolutes, but my goal on this thread is coming up with a universal Absolute system that handles all such requests in a unified manner.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

Did you read my post?

 

Doc

Sorry, I am only one man, and everyone is talking to me at once. Sometimes it takes extra time to reply to everyone. I have now responded.

Please, no one get offended if it takes me a day or two (or sometimes more) to find the time to read and reply to all the messages on this thread. And to try not to spam the thread, I am trying also in a reply to one person, to address issues that all have raised, so while because of time considerations I may not be able to address each and every post specifically, I will be addressing all the issues raised precisely.

Thanks.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

Sindyr

 

It is difficult to suggest radical changes to the basis of the game when you have a reputation here, it is almost impossible to have such a radical change considered when you are new and you don't reference the current accepted way of achieving in-game absolute abilities if not in-system absolutes.

To be fair, I wasn't suggesting that the entire game be changed, just asking for some help adding a new tool to the toolkit in the games *I* will be running and playing in. That's not so offensive is it?

You have had a pretty rough first few posts but the people you are talking to have had this argument quite a few times and the temptation is to jump immediately to the position you have developed over the past arguments. Have you looked round the boards for previous examples? If nothing else it would have prepared you for the very arguments you are getting now.

I did look, but my search fu is weak, I'll admit - if anyone has links where the methods to achieve general absolutes (not just for one power) are discussed, I am eager to read them, and thank you.

The accepted way to have absolutes in HERO is for the referee to indicate the top level attack or defence that he will allow in the game and then cost what an appropriate counter to that would cost. THAT is the cost of your absolute power - it is absolute (in that game, at that power level) for an appropriate cost to the game. It is as simple as you can get and remains true to the system.

For the fourth or fifth time, I have read and understood that, but the tool I am looking to add to my toolkit does more than that. It would be helpful I think to the thread is everyone on it embraces the truth that I have understood the option you describe above, and found that it doesn't meet the needs of the reason I started this thread. Thanks.

If you, as GM agree to competing absolutes then you can decide what happens. Personally I would not allow more than one person at a time to have any absolute or its counter and heroes compete over them...

 

Doc

The way the Absolute Ability system is being designed, the nature of the Absolute Abilities themselves will determine how any seeming conflict amongst them works out. In other words, in this system, its very hard to have two Absolute Abilities truly precisely contradicting each other in the same moment and manner.

Thanks again.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

Obviously you've never read any Karl Marx.

Should I?

Seriously, though, my point was that whether adding Absolutes to Hero System adds something valuable to the game is, I think, in the eye of the beholder.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

I call Shenanigans.

I call TGI Fridays or Olive Garden?

They will often conflict. And if the defensive one always wins, then the offensive one is no longer absolute. To see the conflicts, see below (using your own examples).

They will often *seem* to conflict, but if written in proper detail as I indicated, very few true conflicts remain

The primary reason Absolutes work poorly in Hero is that they don't scale at all. If we price Absolute Invulnerability to physical force, for example, at 120 points, no one in a game where character points total 150 or less can practically afford it, it's a huge point sink in games at 350 points, and everyone buys it in a game set around 1,000 points. It's either prohibitively expensive or mandatory to be competitive, depending on your point level.

This is a very good thinking point, and I appreciate you bringing it up. It does not of course deter me from pursuing the goal, but it brings up a true pitfall that needs to be taken into consideration.

Fantasy Hero has a fine structure for Absolutes. Buy enough of the ability that, given the structure of this game, it results in impossible, or near-impossible (must have a roll less than 3, or more than 18, for it to fail). Agree between GM and Player that this is now an "absolute". You bought enough defenses that no sword can inflict damage on you, based on the game world in question capping sword damage at 4d6 KA (so you have, say, 24 rPD and 120 PD, much of it only vs swords). You are invulnerable to swords. If someone with a 6d6 sword attack comes along, tough luck - this was agreed to be "invulnerable to swords".

This has been suggested multiple times above and below, and there I have explained why this does not achieve my goals.

An "attack always hurts", "attack always KO's" or "attack always kills" power is a conflicting absolute. You want an unhurtable character. I want an unstoppable attack. One of us will be unhappy.

It is true that in the extremely rare cases when two such characters come together, one character will be happier than the other. However, the Absolute Ability system does not promise literal Absolutes, but mechanical Absolutes when up against non-Absolutes. Think of it this way - in math, and this is true, there are different kinds of infinities, and some of them are bigger than others. However, ALL infinities are bigger than any single number, no matter how big you make it. It's the same thing here.

My goal is that Absolutes always trump or prevail against non-Absolutes. And even in Absolute vs Absolute (which as I said will be very rare), the majority of the time neither power will be overruled, since the outcome can be determined from how the Absolutes work themselves. Therefore, while one side may be happier than the other, both sides will the majority of the time know that their power wasn't working at less than full Absolute Strength.

That Indian with Absolute Dodge can't be hit, though. What happened to Cowboy's Absolute Marksmanship that never misses?

 

My Avatar of Death kills anyone dead - no ability to recover. Which Absolute prevails? Presumably, Death has no Sting, since Regen is the more defensive ability.

 

Unless the defender has an Absolutely Impenetrable Force Wall, of course.

Your mistake here is that what you quoted were outlines of the character's Absolute Ability, not their Absolute Ability itself, which I did not contruct for every single example idea.

To understand how conflict amongst Absolute Abilities is resolved, you need to read the section called "V)Absolute versus Absolute"

Not bad...instead of paying 120 points for 3/4 Damage Reduction from physical and energy attacks (itself an absolute which has some issues), he paid 75 points for absolute immunity. Now he doesn't need a high CON, since his need for REC is reduced, and his need for STUN and CON itself eliminated, so he pays some of the 75 point cost by taking lower CON and more by selling back STUN from his STR. And he doesn't have to buy up his defenses either.

Are you trying to say that it needs to cost more? I could believe that may be true. Doesn't prove the that goal is invalid, of course.

As Treb says, there is a reason this proposal is not getting a warm reception from experienced Hero gamers. Note that we think posting your idea on the Hero web site is an invitation for us to criticize it if we consider it problematic. I also think your defensiveness when it is suggested this is not a good idea indicates you didn't really want the idea criticized. If you still consider it workable, implement it in your game and see how it flies. Let us know the results of your playtest.

Actually I want constructive criticism, and you came up with a few. The problem was, at first I was only getting an attack on my goals.

Thanks

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

Then it's not really an Absolute, is it? So what's the point of this exercise again?

 

This idea would be better addressed as schtick: Character A's schtick is that he's the fastest, so no one gets to be faster. Character B's schtick is that she's the toughest; so no other (non-)player character has as good defenses. That way it scales to each campaign and genre individually and it doesn't require inordinately complicated rules but rather cooperation between players and GM. Sounds like win-win to me.

The idea that the character is the best at X because the GM (either by volition or by mechanic) doesn’t allow anyone better at X in the universe, is a valid idea, and a quite useful one in some games, but it fails to accomplish two of my core goals.

First, a character can be the best Teleporter in the Universe, and yet still not have enough oomph to get from one end of the universe to the other. Or a character might be the most invulnerable Brink in the universe, and yet take tons of damage when the antimatter device explodes.

The only way to fix this with your idea is to not only make sure the character in question is the best at X, but that you never put him in a situation that in which his power to do X is not enough to handle it. It feels like a kludge, “Let’s see, Hero System can’t handle absolutes, but I my character wants to feel as if there’s nothing his power can’t handle, I better make sure that no circumstances arise where he wants to use his power at level higher than he has purchased.

Maybe it’s just me, but the above is a very weird place to GM from. To me, it’s just easier and more logical to make sure that the character simply *has* the oomph to handle whatever get’s thrown at it.

Which leads me to my second point: The reason I am playing Hero System is because it’s a toolkit.

I mean, I hear this over and over and over again: Hero System is the ultimate toolkit for building any character I would want to play or GM for. Well, clearly it is missing any tools in the kit that would help me or my players build character with Absolute Abilities. Now, I understand that this is not by accident, that the game designer chose to not have these tools in the kit. I am NOT complaining that these tools weren’t provided. Nevertheless, when I buy a toolkit that someone else designed, I may choose to add a few extra tools not originally part of the package because the toolkit as designed by someone else may not cover all the tools I need for the job I am doing.

So, no matter what, I *want* the tool of Absolute Abilities. It’s doesn’t have to be of my design, but it needs to somehow implement the idea of a character having an ability that is Absolute, in that it has one or more of the following aspects:

-It can’t be prevented from its effect.

-It permits the overriding use of any values from zero to infinity and anywhere in between.

-It makes an impossible or uncertain use of an ability certain.

-It flatly prevents something from occurring that otherwise could not be prevented.

We can all agree that there is no universal system or tool for doing this in the toolkit right now. I don’t know how much use I will have for such an Absolute Ability tool, but I do know that I want the tool in my kit before I go out on a job. I don’t want to tell a player that their request cannot be entertained because I showed up without the right tool to do so.

So that’s what I am doing here on this thread, trying to craft such a tool. If the tool I am making is too complex, then I am open to hearing simpler and maybe better ways of getting the same job done, but let me be clear, I am committed to making or finding a tool for actual absolutes in this game. This means that while I am looking for the simplest way to add a universal Absolute Ability system to the game, if it *has* to have a certain level of complexity or else it can’t be done, then I will live with the complexity rather than give up on having this tool in the kit.

And really, the system I suggested seems no more complex than things like VPPs, Naked Advantages, and combat vs noncombat movement. But if it is too complex for some, then obviously they do not need to employ it. I get the impression that I would be the only one in these forums to use this tool anyways, if it’s not too complex for me, not sure why other people would care if it’s too complex for them when they have no intention of using it in the first place.

One final note: I use the phrase “Absolute Ability” to mean something pretty specific and mechanical – something that trumps everything non-Absolute. The fact that in some extremely rare case two Absolutes may conflict, and one may trump the other, doesn’t make either ability non-Absolute from the technical and mechanical way I am employing that phrase.

Thanks.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

In Defense of (some) Complexity

First of all, I should note how ironic it feels to be writing this on a Hero System forum, while it is the general impression of many gamers that the Hero System itself is far too complex. Obviously, I do not agree.

I am going to make no bones that this post continues in the same vein as the original post, namely, that while absolutes are not for every game, there is nothing inherently wrong, bad, or broken about allowing them with the proper implementation. My approach continues to be, if a player asks me how to build a teleport power that can’t be blocked, telling him that he either can’t afford it or that worse it’s not permitted is the wrong way to GM.

Someone noted that my implementation of an absolute add-on system to Hero System was complicated. I thought I should explain *why* I chose this system over a more simple one.

Please also note that the goal is a system whereby any given aspect of a power may be made absolute. This can mean one or more of the following:

· The power cannot be blocked, or prevented from accomplishing its results.

· The power can cause a value, such as damage or movement, to take any desired value, from zero to infinity, and anywhere in between.

· The power takes an uncertain or impossible act and makes it certain.

· The power prevents named effects from taking place.

While it may be possible to come up with individual solutions for each desired absolute aspect, the goal here is a unified *system* within which all those requests can be priced and filled. In other words, I am not trying to come up with a way to solve “unbroken teleports” or “invulnerability”, instead I am trying to come up with an complete add-on system for Hero System that does all that and more.

Now on to the main matter at hand – why did I design such a complex system?

There are, as far as I know, only three ways to pay for and receive extra ability in Champions: Flat cost, Adders, and Advantages. Flat cost is like purchasing a base talent or power – you pay your points, and you get basic teleport. Adders are improvements to specific powers that also have a flat cost that adds to that power’s base cost. Advantages are improvements to specific powers that multiply the base cost by a value which is greater for greater enhancements.

The first think I considered was having an Absolute Aspect advantage. Take Blink, the teleporter, for example. If the player wants to create a teleport power that cannot be blocked by Force Fields, no matter how many times Hardened is applied to it, the player is effectively requesting an Absolute Aspect of penetration for his Teleport power. The player may also want unlimited range throughout the universe, asking for the Range value to be unlimited. This player effectively wants *two* absolutes on this one power.

If I created an Advantage “Absolute Aspect” that gave a single Absolute aspect to the power, I would have to assign a value to it. Let’s say that the “Absolute Aspect” Advantage is assigned a value from +½ to +2, based on the GM’s judgment on how extreme and how wide the scope was.

Base teleport costs 2 character points for every 1” of range. Even if both Absolute Advantage Aspects cost +2 each (and the obligatory Safe Blind Teleport, +¼, Blink would be able to purchase Base Teleportation with 2 character points, +4.25 advatanges = 2 x 5.25 = 11 character points for a power that can teleport any range, without the possibility of being blocked.

*This* in my opinion, *is* broken.

The problem with using Advantages for this purpose is that when one is seeking Absolutes one doesn’t need to put extra points into the base cost, and one reaps a far too beneficial cost as a result.

Another option would be an “Absolute Aspect” Adder. The problem with this is that different powers have different base costs. A +25 point Adder for a moderate scope “Absolute Aspect” may make sense for one power, but be completely overpriced for a power that is far cheaper. And because Adders are added in before applying Advantages and Disadvantages, it permits two problems to occur: it permits Advantages to blow up the price to the point it can’t be afforded by anyone, and it permits Disadvantages to lower the costs of such an absolute power to be again, far cheaper than it should be.

There is another reason, I think, why neither Advantages nor Adders are suitable as the way to systematize Absolutes. Those need to be applied to a base power, but some potentially requested Absolutes may not have a base power. For example, a player may want the Absolute Ability to ignore harm and adversarial affects. This is not really provided even in part by any power. Therefore, an Advantage or Adder wouldn’t suit this.

(I know the above request is a big one, and it would come with a big price, but please do not get sidetracked by that, the point is that Adders and Advantages cannot handle all Absolutes if said Absolute is not based on a power.)

This is why I settled on having Absolute Abilities on being a flat cost, purchased as a power. However, I figured that different Absolutes would have different scopes, and should cost different amounts. A character that Absolutely cannot be harmed by Fire should not pay as much for that as a character that Absolutely cannot be harmed by *any* energy attacks. So although there is a flat 50 point cost to having an Absolute Ability, that is multiplied by the Advantage of its scope for its Active cost. And of course, some Absolute Abilities could have more than one Aspect which is Absolute (like penetration and range, from Blink’s Absolute Teleport power), and each Advantage would apply.

So I did come up with the best overall method I could think of to handle all potential Absolute Abilities. But if anyone can think of a simpler system that accomplishes the goals of this system equally well, I am excited to hear it.

Thanks.

If a player wants to be able to use his noncombat movement without penalty, as combat movement including move throughs and the like, how is that accomplished with this Hero System toolkit? How is that costed out?

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

I don't suppose it's ever occurred to you that this idea of Absolutes has been discussed around here before more than once and generally rejected because it doesn't add anything to the role-playing aspects of the game? It might work in the abstract if Hero were a tactical wargame' date=' but it's not; it's a role-playing game.[/quote']

 

I think you have that backwards - it's *because* it's an RPG not a wargame that we can explore a wider range of options without breaking the game. Having well-defined absolutes does not break the game - it can't. A poor *implementation* of absolutes can be game-breaking, but simply adding the option to the game can't be. Do you see the difference?

 

You're not discussing "evolution in a church." (Not to mention that most Christians I know believe in evolution.) You come in here with no track record (or apparent Hero experience) whatsoever and drop an idea for an extremely radical change to a well proven and successful system and wonder why you're not seeing a lot of enthusiasm? Maybe it's because those of us who've played this game for any length of time - many people here have been playing Hero for 20+ years - understand the severe problems your idea would create without having to dissect it in detail.

 

1) I have plenty of track record, just none here. What do you expect me to do about that?

 

2) I am not sure calling it a "change" is accurate - after all, I am not changing the existing rules, but adding a new system. Perhaps "add-on" or "house-rule" is more accurate, after all, I wasn't suggesting that 6th Ed add this as canon.

 

3) I wasn't wondering why people were not enthusiastic. I was noting that everyone sees to be having extremely knee-jerk reactions as if I broke into their house and killed their dog. That's a very *different* reaction than "not seeing a lot of enthusiasm".

 

4) And while I said I was disappointed, I didn't say I didn't understand why. Upon reflection, the group here is here *because* they believe in the core truths of the system, and one of those truths is "no absolutes" - I guess I shouldn't have been surprised at the resulting responses to an idea that asks how to best bring absolutes to the table.

 

5) It *is* a well-proven and successful system, but I can see from all the posts here on these forums that few people here believe the game is complete and as good as it can possibly be. I am not the only one exploring house rules and add-ons, mine just happen to be the most heretical.

 

6) "Understanding the severe problems" in theory could equate to many mental mistakes in practice, such as:

-Misunderstanding the goal

-Incorrectly thinking that if one implementation of the goal is flawed, that all possible implementations of the goal must also be flawed

-Missing the potential fact that a problem seen has already been potentially addressed and solved (like one absolute vs another)

-Understanding the goal, but confusing and conflating not liking a game with absolutes with the idea that such a game is broken and would not work.

 

As far as I can see, no criticisms have been offered to demonstrate conclusively that the goal itself, regardless of the implementation, is incompatible with either gaming as a whole or Hero System specifically.

 

And in fact, no criticisms have even been offered demonstrating that my particular implementation is flawed.

 

Really, the only things being said here boil down to:

-Wow that's really complicated (a valid statement, and somewhat helpful, although suggestions at accomplishing the overall goal with less complexity would be even better.)

-Absolutes Bad! Hulk smash!

 

That's entirely human to have such an emotional reaction, I just wasn't prepared for it.

 

Oh, and:

 

I don't suppose it's ever occurred to you that this idea of Absolutes has been discussed around here before more than once and generally rejected because it doesn't add anything to the role-playing aspects of the game?

 

This is not worthy of the person who wrote this. Who writes a 5 hour essay on a subject if it doesn't add anything? Not me.

 

It may not add anything *you like* - and that's fine, but saying it doesn't add anything at ALL is no different than saying I have no right to want something different from playing and running Hero System than you do.

 

And that's not worthy of *you*. I strongly feel you can do better and are better than that statement.

 

Don't prove me wrong.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

That's my thought as well. Even the version of Invulnerability I proposed 3 years ago had deliberate weaknesses to preserve game balance.

 

As a more theoretical criticism of Absolute Abilities, I think the idea wasn't thought all the way through. If these existed in-game, many Hero - particularly Champions - combats would become unresolvable. The Unhurtable vs the Always Kills. The Infinity Fast vs the Can Catch Anyone. The Never Misses vs the Never Gets Hit. The Irresistible Force vs the Immovable Object.

I addressed this directly in a section of my initial post. To summarize - well-defined Absolutes very rarely truly conflict... and the catch-all is that if it ever truly happens, the defensive one wins.

Furthermore, everyone should understand that I am proposing an option, NOT saying that every character should use them. I imagine that most characters do not partake of Absolute Attributes. Therefor there simply isn't a lot of chance that two exactly opposed Absolutes will come into conflict. But in the extremely unlikely event that it occurs, it's covered.

Re: New option: Absolute Abilties, help please

I must be honest, I am disappointed in the responses. Very disappointed. They range from attacking the goals, to those who didn't read the whole thing (which is understandable, its long, but why reply if you don't read the entire thing?), to people attacking the solution without making any suggestions for how to accomplish the goals.

Not a single helpful reply. I guess I will have to chalk that up to the principle of self-selection - that Hero System has always lacked Absolute Abilities, and that it's core audience are those who must be strongly anti-Absolute. Perhaps this is the equivalent to discussing evolution in a church.

Maybe I shouldn't be, but I am just stunned. I was expecting to be taken down a peg or two, and that one of the Hero System vets would probably come up with a simpler system to handle the addition of Absolute Attributes, but no one did.

Oh well. Maybe some day down the line, if I keep checking, someone will post a helpful *constructive* response and help me figure out how to add this capacity to the game. Even if that doesn't happen, maybe other people wanting the same kind of super hero options will take something functional from my post. At the very least, I have had the opportunity to work things out for my group.

I suppose I am a firm believer in two guiding principles:

1) With a *real* toolkit system, a player can come to a GM and say "How do I build this power" and the GM's response will never be "You can't."

2) With 500+ points, a player ought to be able to purchase just about any power he can come up with.

If a player comes to the GM saying "I want to be able to TP anywhere, and never be blocked no matter what" there should be at the very least a way to give the player a trumping ability. He should not have ONLY the option of buying Armor Piercing multiple times, and hoping he never runs into a barrier that has been Hardened one more time than that.

That's just one example. I am sure I can come up with examples without end of ways in which a player could ask for a power that either the current Hero System wouldn't be able to make, or would cost many more points that a player could afford even with 500 points.

You can tell such a player "You don't get to play that character.", but *I* do not want that to be my response. If a player is interested in a certain power working a certain way, that's a challenge to the *GM* to make it happen - and price it accordingly, but NOT ridiculously.

I can't imagine GMing any other way.

I will check back again to see if any helpful replies have been posted. Perhaps now that I have been made to feel like a heretic, I will have more realistic expectations of that happening.

Re: Spectre of 6e

Relative newbie here - used to play Champions 4th Ed a long long time ago, picking up the 5th Ed Hero System for the first time, having recently come to the conclusions that superheroes is where I belong in RPGs. Looking forward to Champions Online too (as well as playing CoX now, and looking forward to DCUO.)

Anyways, I decided not to wait - I bought about $450 worth of Heroes stuff - a couple of 5th Revised, all the Ultimates, some of the guide books, such as combat and character creation, etc...

I figure I will at least get a year out of them, and maybe more, and with luck that will be several hundred hours of gaming.

Plus hopefully when 6th Ed comes out it will be more or less compatible with the splat books, like the Ultimates.