Package deal issues

[AmadanNaBriona]

OK...so I've been playing Hero for over 20 years now (gulp!), and I just recently picked up FREd and began converting the campaign world I've been working on in for the last 5 years while I lived in the mountains with no gamers nearby. Now that I actually have access to players, I'm finding some of the changes a bit boggling. Specificaly, I'm trying to wrap my brain around the modifications to package deals, as in the new Fantasy ero, there seems to be more of an emphasis on them, with less of a point break, and higher power levels to boot. As my setting was designed to rely on packages rather heavily, its throwing a wrench into my conversion work... I'm having to rethink quite a lot. has anyone come up with interesting ideas for pointing out increased charateristic maxima or other tweaks to the new package systems?

And as an aside, hinted at before...whats up with these power levels? I was testing out a couple of bits that didn't ring true in my head, and threw together a Warhammer style "Dwarf Slayer"... Dwarf, Warrior Culture, Mountain Environment, and Light Warrior packages. Then I paid out the extra for the over Max characteristics, distributed the levels, slapped on a couple of extra penalty levels, combat luck, and Deadly Blow (Monster hunter)...and wound up with about a 200 point charater (less than 20 points spent outside of packages) that , on testing, droped a charging Bestiary T-Rex with one, single, 2 battleaxe aimed multipower attack to the head... even without a critical.

Now...I see this mainly as part of the ongoing problem Hero has with underpowering muckin' huge critters... but even so.......

[Killer Shrike]

Well, thats a big group of related things, but I would humbly point you at my website (http://www.FantasyHERO.com) for my take on running Fantasy games using the HERO System.

[AmadanNaBriona]

thanks Shrike

 

Been meaning to take a look at your site anyway...seen several of your posts, and it sounds like your thought processes are compatible with my own.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: thanks Shrike

 

Originally posted by AmadanNaBriona

Been meaning to take a look at your site anyway...seen several of your posts, and it sounds like your thought processes are compatible with my own.

Thanx...I think!

[bjbrown]

I don't view the new Fantasy Hero as a big set of rules, but as a big set of suggestions, many of which I ignore. I haven't gone through it meticulously, but I think it was designed to be that way- more of a toolbook than a rulebook. I think too that 4th Ed. FH seemed geared more toward low-powered fantasy, whereas 5th Ed. FH aspires to have something for every power level. You should feel free to ignore what you don't like. For me, Chapter 3 has the only stuff I want to incorporate into my existing game (except that for the weapons charts, for which I continue to use 4th Ed.); everything else is just nice ideas that I might use if I ever run a new game.

 

If the new package deals are a hassle for you, ignore them. That's the easiest way. If you like the way that 4th Ed. did package deals, use that.

 

Even though I don't use package deals, I like that the 5th Ed. package deals don't alter NCM. If you want different races to have different NCM, it's probably best to create your own chart, and balance the character point bonuses with penalties (for example, balancing a STR 23 against an INT 17).

 

I don't like some of the new Talents and Powers (such as Deadly Blow.) If one of my players asked me for something like that (say a Deadly Blow limited to undead only), I would consider it on a case-by-case basis.

 

Don't fall into that trap of thinking that just because it's published, you must use it.

[Captain Obvious]

BJ's got it right. You couldn't even play FH by using EVERY suggestion in the book. Most of the magic systems are incompatible....

 

If the FH package deals are throwing your game off, ditch them. If some are salvagible, then keep those. Don't think twice about ditching or rewriting if you feel the need. In the end, it's your world, and anything that doesn't feel right, isn't right.

[AmadanNaBriona]

LOL

 

Actually, I fully appreciate the toolkit idea...I just find myself in the position of wishing for more ideas for adjusting the current ruleset...largely due to HERO I have been a lifetime tinkerer where rules are concerned. Part of why I like Steve Long is that uses the same kind of nonlinear thinking to create effects that Arron Alston used to display.

My games tend towards the high powered as well... my campaign is dark fantasy, fairly realistic and grim, but with strong magical overtones. The reason I asked about packages and NCM is that my magic system is an Order/Chaos balance scale similar to the one is L.E. Modesitt Jr's Recluse series, and I structured both sides of the magic using packages.

 

I split the nature of being into three aspects, Body, Mind, and Spirit, and subdivided these into 17 parts, called "anchors" further divided as Core (common to all members of a species), Prime (central to ones self), and Minor (based on environment, current state, etc). a normal "nonmagical" human has all of the anchors is a rough state of balance between order and chaos. in order to channel magic, which has its root in chaos, one must have one or more of these channels "corrupted". I call these Broken Anchors. This is either inborn, usually due to chaotic influences on the parents (kind of like radiation related birth defects) or deliberate, due to some practice designed to break one or more anchors (this is the basics behind initiation ceremonies, magicial apprenticeships and the like). The more broken anchors, the more power available. However, the influence of chaos is corrosive on intact anchors (a required Transform SE) so the use of Magic, like hard drugs , leads you down the dark path.

Ordercraft, on the other hand, involves (by rigorus discpline, focus, and often help) "hardening" your anchors so they are resistant to chaos. One of the main benefits characters recieve from Ordermastery is increased Maxima, as well as Powers and disads related to the aspect that has been ordered. For example, a character who has an Ordered Body will be unaging, immune to disease, resistant to toxins, as well somewhat resistant to harm (Damage Reduction) and will heal quickly. On the flip side, ingested toxins will cause a strong systemic backlash as they purge the toxins (steer clear of the booze) They have a couple of weird vunerabilities as well, and very little "random factors" in their body...they have a HARD time breeding...and their genetics are rather odd.

Some races are defined as Naturally Ordered or chaotic in one or more of their Aspects... this accounts for most of the "Immortal" races, such as the Sidhe or the Scaileanna.

 

I cooked up a system for this in 4th edition, using packages. With FREd, the chaos magic becomes easier, but the ordercraft gets a bit harder. I plan on a "retraining" campaign, where the heros have an option to start at a lower power level then boost up, but I want it to be nice and tidy. I just wondered how other folk out there were handling situations similar to this?

As to the rest?

I like most of it...Deadly Blow solves some of the issues I've had with lethality (Try running a game based in Steven Brust's Draegaera, or Lankhmar, or any other "rogue" campaign without some system to increase max damage on small weapons). My point with the Dwarf example was a bit unfocused, but part of my problem has been with racial and environmental packages all along. A 250 point immortal Sidhe will have considerably less options, due to the size of his package, than the short lived 250 point human adventuring with him.

[Killer Shrike]

I know what you mean about the members of different races getting shoe-horned into the same points as a human thats been around for a relative eyeblink.

 

I handle it by treating Race Package Deals as essentially offsets -- they arent counted into a character's points for determining partity w/ other characters.

 

Thus, "starting" player characters have 50 base points and up to 75 points of personal Disadvantages. Each of them must have a Race Package. The Disadvantages and negative characteristic adjustments in the Race Packages are literal subtractions, and the player pays the difference out of their characters 50+75 points.

 

Thus, humans are really 150 point characters as the Human package carries 25 points in Disadvantages, while the Rock Gnome is really 165 total points (and cost the character 15 points from their 50+75).

 

If the Campaign started at 50+75+100 EXP (225 nominally), the human would really be 250 and the Rock Gnome would really be 265.

 

This can be particularly extreme in some cases, like the Stone Troll. If the GM allowed a player to play one at a starting 125 (50+75) point game, the Stone Troll would really be 170 points bcs it caries 45 pts of racial Disadvantages, plus it would cost 70 of the characters 50+75 points -- the net effect is the character has 170 total points, only 55 of which are left over to be spent outside of the Race package.

 

It sounds a bit odd, but it actually works out rather well.

 

Check out the Machtig characters thread in the Fantasy Forum thread -- 9 of the PCs are human, and 1 is a "Hieraxian Dwarf" -- a very distilled and high-powered version of Dwarves. I think this is actually the most extreme example available currently from the Race Packages on my site, but Raxatar is actually 245 point character due to the numerous disadvantages of his Race package.