Always On as a Disad

[dataweaver]

What do people think of the idea of using Physical Limitations to represent Always On, instead of calling it a Limitation? The severity would represent how much trouble not being able to shut the power off would cause, and the frequency would represent how common the problems are likely to occur.

 

It would also potentially allow for particularly weak powers with potentially severe drawbacks to have a "net" negative cost, much like a cheap Multiform linked to Accidental Change can end up giving you points overall.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Always On as a Disad

 

I don't see why not, given the right concept.

 

Although getting 10-20 points from a Disad when you'd only save 5 by making the Power Always On might seem silly.

[dataweaver]

Re: Always On as a Disad

 

Well, that's kind of the point: the Always On Limitation doesn't always give enough of a discount (there's no way for a 15-point power to get a 25-point discount with _any_ Limitation; but the concept behind Always On is one of the few ones where just this sort of thing is occasionally more appropriate to the concept).

[Gary]

Re: Always On as a Disad

 

I don't see why not, given the right concept.

 

Although getting 10-20 points from a Disad when you'd only save 5 by making the Power Always On might seem silly.

 

A 5 pt Limitation is often more valuable than a 10-20 pt Disad. That's the case in campaigns that cap the number of points you can get from Disads.

[dataweaver]

Re: Always On as a Disad

 

Hmm... you have a point. Consider this, then: turn "Always On" into a negative-value Adder, patterned after the cost structure of Physical Limitations (so that the more severe the problems associated with not being able to shut it off, the more points get subtracted).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Always On as a Disad

 

Hmm... you have a point. Consider this' date=' then: turn "Always On" into a negative-value Adder, patterned after the cost structure of Physical Limitations (so that the more severe the problems associated with not being able to shut it off, the more points get subtracted).[/quote']

I think the way it works, in theory, is that the problems should be relative to the level of power involved. Certainly an Always On FF is inconvienient, and is even more so if it's Hardened, Difficult to Dispel and a high value. If you have a smaller/weaker FF that's AO, the problems should be less in having it AO.

 

Perhaps a better example, though not as common, would be Teleport UAA, Continuous, 0 END, Persistant, AO. How inconvienient this is will depend upon how far away you're teleporting everything you touch.

[dataweaver]

Re: Always On as a Disad

 

I think the way it works' date=' in theory, is that the problems should be relative to the level of power involved. Certainly an Always On FF is inconvienient, and is even more so if it's Hardened, Difficult to Dispel and a high value. If you have a smaller/weaker FF that's AO, the problems should be less in having it AO.[/quote']

 

That's the theory, sure. Note, however, that it doesn't always work that way. The whole reason why there's a category for Size Powers is that the drawbacks associated with being permanently big or small are not relative to the level of power involved. It's the same reason why "permanent high density" is phrased as a sample Physical Limitation rather than as an Always On version of Density Increase. In fact, most of the Body Change powers lose an unusual amount of value when the ability to turn them off is removed. Consider a ghost, with permanent Desolidification: he can't interact with the physical world at all. The fact that almost nothing physical can affect him either barely compensates for this; the discount is certainly worth more than a -1/2 Limitation, and is quite likely worth more than any Limitation could possibly provide. To my mind, even the 25 point cap that the Physical Limitations model imposes is insufficient to reflect the severity of being unable to affect the physical world.

 

Perhaps a better example' date=' though not as common, would be Teleport UAA, Continuous, 0 END, Persistant, AO. How inconvienient this is will depend upon how far away you're teleporting everything you touch.[/quote']

 

Will it? Or is the discomfort defined by how random the resulting teleport will be? If you get to choose exactly where the thing you touch will end up, it's not much of a limitation; if there's a 50/50 chance that what you touch will end up underground, it's considerably more of a hassle.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Always On as a Disad

 

Um...AO on persistant Desol saves 26 points.

[dataweaver]

Re: Always On as a Disad

 

OTOH, applying a -25 point "Adder" to begin with (and thus reducing its cost prior to applying Advantages down to 15 points) would lower the initial cost of Desolid before applying any Advantages to it. Net result: Permanent Desolidification would cost 30 points (for a 50-point saving vs. Persistent Desolidification).

 

Here's my problem: under the current rules, permanent Desolidification (that is, Persistent and Always On) costs the character 54 points - even more than standard Desolidification costs. In my experience, the practical drawbacks associated with being completely unable to interact with the physical world aren't even close to being offset by the inability of the physical world to affect you. Even the 30-point total that I came up with above seems excessively expensive for the benefits vs. hindrances provided; a cost of 0 plus or minus 15 points seems more reasonable to me. So I'm trying to figure out how to get the system to give me something closer to this result.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Always On as a Disad

 

As far as Desol is concerned, there's the Spirit rules from 4th Ed Almanac 1. It's basically just another character type (such as a vehicle or an automaton) that doens't have a body. The rules are clever and well written, but a bit unbalanced, as Spirits don't have STUN or BODY, and can simply by through a Focus (a body) to affect the real world (which actually makes them cheaper).

 

For other Powers, it's always a case by case basis, as with everything.

[dataweaver]

Re: Always On as a Disad

 

I'm aware of the Spirit rules, and I like the concept - OTOH, there are differences between a Desolidified character and a Spirit (such as the lack of BODY and STUN). Still, if I tweak the Spirit rules to more closely conform to the effects of Desolidification, or vice versa, I could then add Desolidifiaction to the Size Powers group - which is actually more of a "powers that don't react well to Always On" group than anything else. Likewise with Density Increase, and I might want to consider a few more of the Body Change Powers.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Always On as a Disad

 

I'm aware of the Spirit rules' date=' and I like the concept - OTOH, there are differences between a Desolidified character and a Spirit (such as the lack of BODY and STUN). Still, if I tweak the Spirit rules to more closely conform to the effects of Desolidification, or vice versa, I could then add Desolidifiaction to the Size Powers group - which is actually more of a "powers that don't react well to Always On" group than anything else. Likewise with Density Increase, and I might want to consider a few more of the Body Change Powers.[/quote']

I thought Density Increase was alreay in the category of "only to represent a change and not a permanent condition" Powers. I suppose you could just add Desol to that was well. In that case, I think whatever advantages you can see coming from it would be balanced by whatever drawbacks. Such a character wouldn't have a Physical Limitation, but would simply be defined as being Desolid.

[zornwil]

Re: Always On as a Disad

 

I know this is ancient, but I would weigh in here that "Always On" should apply, in my opinion, where it is a limitation to the power, whereas a Phys Lim should be applied where the limitation is on the character. I believe "earlier" (for all I know it still exists in 5th, it's not handy) editions were certainly guilty of not making a distinction, but I think logically that is how it should be done. That should also ensure points values match.