My House Rules. Comments Welcome

[nexus]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

Skill levels? Have you ever noticed that when you increase your skill in a specific area that deals with dexterity that your overall dexterity seems to improve some as well?

 

Acutally, no, not outside of task directly related to the skill. When practiced shooting baskets quite a bit, my ability to hit things with a ball increased, but my reaction time didn't go up significantly and I certainly didn't become a better fighter. I certainly didn't get the ability to do a better back flip. Hero isn't that granular in regards to agility actions, but I think getting more skills in my "PS:Basketball" represented what happened better than buying up Dexterity. Increasing my Dex would be cheaper and get more beneifit, that is what I have found most players gravitate toward it. YMMV.

 

As to intelligence, I don't know what you are reading but as an educator I can tell you that studying virtually anything in a methodical, proven way will increase your intelligence. Does that mean I'll be taking Einstein on any time soon? No. But it does mean that there is reasonable justification for increasing someone's starting intelligence score.

 

I didn't say there was no reason for raising one's Int, but that buying more skills or increasing them seperately seems more realistic to me. I don't think its easy to increaser you overall intelligence. I just don't. Nothing I've read has said it, at least not in the way it works in Hero. I have 20 Int based skills. Increasing my Int increases ALL of them, my speed of thought and makes my sense sharper (increased perception rolls).

 

Not raising characteristics is more realistic? I don't think so. And Hero aint generic. It's an adventure roleplaying game. It's meant to allow settings to be generic but it is obvious from the scale of the game that it is geared to the kinds of fantastic exploits in Pulp Novels, Comics, Spaghetti Westerns, Hindu Vedas, and Icelandic Sagas to name a few. You can play Normal Hero and that's cool - but MOST of the Hero System will not be used in that case.

 

Again I didn't say Not Raising Characteristics is realistic, but I think its less "realistic" then buying skills and increasing them. And Hero is Generic system in the sense it can be use for variety of settings and moods. If I want to be more "realistic" and limit things, thats an option. You don't have go to for maximum cinema everytime.

 

I always got the impression that Peter Parker just grew up and out of his awkward teenage years and teenage body and acne issues.

 

That would fall under my suggestion for characters that are underaged and haven't reached their full potential.

 

And who said I was arguing there should be no reasonable explanation for an increase in characteristics? My point is that the House Rule basically says there isn't a reasonable explanation in a Superhero World which flummoxes me because there is a reasonable explanation in the Real World.

 

Fine, then I guess we can stop beating a dead horse. Its pretty clear we are not going to change each other's mind. I respect your opinion and you're right to it, its just not mine.

[Agent X]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

Acutally, no, not outside of task directly related to the skill. When practiced shooting baskets quite a bit, my ability to hit things with a ball increased, but my reaction time didn't go up significantly and I certainly didn't become a better fighter. I certainly didn't get the ability to do a better back flip. Hero isn't that granular in regards to agility actions, but I think getting more skills in my "PS:Basketball" represented what happened better than buying up Dexterity. Increasing my Dex would be cheaper and get more beneifit, that is what I have found most players gravitate toward it. YMMV.

 

 

 

I didn't say there was no reason for raising one's Int, but that buying more skills or increasing them seperately seems more realistic to me. I don't think its easy to increaser you overall intelligence. I just don't. Nothing I've read has said it, at least not in the way it works in Hero. I have 20 Int based skills. Increasing my Int increases ALL of them, my speed of thought and makes my sense sharper (increased perception rolls).

 

 

 

Again I didn't say Not Raising Characteristics is realistic, but I think its less "realistic" then buying skills and increasing them. And Hero is Generic system in the sense it can be use for variety of settings and moods. If I want to be more "realistic" and limit things, thats an option. You don't have go to for maximum cinema everytime.

 

 

 

That would fall under my suggestion for characters that are underaged and haven't reached their full potential.

 

 

 

Fine, then I guess we can stop beating a dead horse. Its pretty clear we are not going to change each other's mind. I respect your opinion and you're right to it, its just not mine.

It's cool. My experiences have to do with being an Academic Coach, an AP Instructor of World History and Government, and some haphazard experience in Coaching Athletics. I've taken classes on Educational Psychology, Measurements and Analysis, and attended seminars on discussions of Intelligence Theory. I've witnessed cognitive leaps in students that I've taught. I've experienced cognitive leaps as a student myself. I've played ball and worked out and noticed that my reaction time, coordination, precision, agility, strength, endurance, mental quickness all increased. I've learned to read methodically, think in a disciplined fashion, and improve my memory. My personal and professional experiences tell me that, in the real world, Characteristics and Skills are intimately connected and that Characteristics rise as Skills attached to those Characteristics are earned.

 

I think the MOST realistic approach is to require a character who has bought X amount of dex skills, str skills, and so on to start raising the characteristic associated with those skills. The funny thing is that's generally how I spend my points.

 

The MOST realistic approach would also consider characteristic and skill "fatigue" through disuse but I'm not too interested in coming up with rules for that.

[nexus]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

It's cool. My experiences have to do with being an Academic Coach, an AP Instructor of World History and Government, and some haphazard experience in Coaching Athletics. I've taken classes on Educational Psychology, Measurements and Analysis, and attended seminars on discussions of Intelligence Theory. I've witnessed cognitive leaps in students that I've taught. I've experienced cognitive leaps as a student myself. I've played ball and worked out and noticed that my reaction time, coordination, precision, agility, strength, endurance, mental quickness all increased. I've learned to read methodically, think in a disciplined fashion, and improve my memory. My personal and professional experiences tell me that, in the real world, Characteristics and Skills are intimately connected and that Characteristics rise as Skills attached to those Characteristics are earned.

 

All right, all right. You Win. My experiences are totally invalid. I'll get to work changing my games around immediately.

 

[Agent X]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

All right, all right. You Win. My experiences are totally invalid. I'll get to work changing my games around immediately.

 

It's only a game... really.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

That's a contradiction. 'Round to two decimal places' means round to the nearest hundredth' date=' not round to the nearest whole number.[/quote']

 

Okay then... rewrite the rule for me so that what it says is that 1.51 rounds to 1.5, but 1.57 rounds to 1.6, because this is what I mean and I can see I stated it badly.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

I do find it kind of odd to discuss "realism" concerns in a genre that accepts a man can fly, bounce bullets off his chest, fire bolts of radiation, turn invisible or run 500+ kph. Compared to these, is training to enhance hand/eye co-ordination, reaction time or "quick thinking" really all that unrealistic, however unrealistic we may believe it to be in the real world?

 

Two asides I always think about in "realism" discussions re RPG's:

 

Reminds me of fantasy game reviewers that assess a magic system as "unrealistic". I'd rather have unrealistic magic, since I can't think of a lot of uses for "pick a card, any card" or "watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat" in battle against the Orc Hordes.

 

 

Something you seem to be overlooking is this: the "realism" I am talking about is the realism of the Global Guardians Universe... not necessarily the realism of the "real world". The background assumptions of my gameworld allow certain things and disallow others. Is this always such a bad thing?

 

As for the magic system thing... I've always used a magic system that had rules that magic itself had to follow, and never allowed magic to be universally effective at doing *everything*. There are always things that magic just can't do.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

I always got the impression that Peter Parker just grew up and out of his awkward teenage years and teenage body and acne issues.

 

Same here. I thought the change was attributable to his finally being allowed to hit his 30's.

[Agent X]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

Okay then... rewrite the rule for me so that what it says is that 1.51 rounds to 1.5' date=' but 1.57 rounds to 1.6, because this is what I mean and I can see I stated it badly.[/quote']Round to the first decimal or round to the tenths?

[gewing]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

That (growing up) always made sense to me, also.

 

edited because Worldmaker posted faster than I did.

[Agent X]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

Something you seem to be overlooking is this: the "realism" I am talking about is the realism of the Global Guardians Universe... not necessarily the realism of the "real world". The background assumptions of my gameworld allow certain things and disallow others. Is this always such a bad thing?

 

As for the magic system thing... I've always used a magic system that had rules that magic itself had to follow, and never allowed magic to be universally effective at doing *everything*. There are always things that magic just can't do.

I think what we are saying is that we don't like the explanation for why dex can't be bought up. If you don't want Dex bought up because you've got too many people playing to carefully screen dex purchases and people are buying it up at a ludicrous rate regardless of concept - I think we could accept that as an imperfect but necessary ruling. As it is we're commenting on the explanation given.

 

If the real reason is that it makes your life easier - that's a good explanation.

[Agent X]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

That (growing up) always made sense to me, also.

 

edited because Worldmaker posted faster than I did.

Yeah, I remember stories in the 70s where Parker still thinks of himself as a nerd but he was turning girls heads... and not noticing that it was happening. Heck, he always was good with the girls if you think about it. He just never realized he was. I don't think any woman I dated would have put up with as much as some of these girls did with Peter Parker's mysterious doings.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

I think what we are saying is that we don't like the explanation for why dex can't be bought up. If you don't want Dex bought up because you've got too many people playing to carefully screen dex purchases and people are buying it up at a ludicrous rate regardless of concept - I think we could accept that as an imperfect but necessary ruling. As it is we're commenting on the explanation given.

 

If the real reason is that it makes your life easier - that's a good explanation.

 

Actually the answer would be "all of the above".

[zornwil]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

Superheroes aren't most people. Steven Seagal played a guy who was in a coma for years, wakes up, and then trains for a weekend with East Asian Healing PracticesTM - and he's back in action. And that character didn't have a silly super name or cape.

 

As far as increasing attributes in the real world: Athletes practice drills to increase their dexterity, constitution, and strength. Intelligence is something that can be improved as well. It's not that hard. I've taken enough education courses dealing with intelligence theories to know the CW is that it is quite possible to improve the 'Noggin. Ego and Presence - think about all those "self-help" courses out there.

 

The "Real World" arguments annoy me anyway. This is a superhero roleplaying game we are talking about. It's caped fantasy guys.

In general, I get annoyed with actual "real world" arguments, but more often people are making "game world realistically rendered" arguments, which are important. The game world - just like a comic book - requires enough internal consistency to be believable, after the appropriate suspension of disbelief. So it depends on what means by "real world".

 

In any case, on this particular point, one could be making the argument that they most like and desire to emulate superhero fiction where the superhero starts out fully realized for the most part and adds primarily "tricks" and "special" stuff over time but is not fundamentally changed. Lemming in his current game doesn't really want anything changed but it's also a points-less (I wrote "pointless" at first, and that would be wrong!) game so the idea is you pretty much built the guy complete.

 

Whereas I personally run entirely the opposite way in that I expect great growth from PCs, I like the "starting as 1930s Superman and becoming 1940 Superman" sort of thing.

[zornwil]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

(snip)

 

Two asides I always think about in "realism" discussions re RPG's:

 

Reminds me of fantasy game reviewers that assess a magic system as "unrealistic". I'd rather have unrealistic magic, since I can't think of a lot of uses for "pick a card, any card" or "watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat" in battle against the Orc Hordes. (snip)

 

Oh, come on, you know how easily confused orcs are! Those tricks would dazzle them. That's why in my fantasy RPG magic-users can only use tricks done by 20th century magicians. Similarly, clerics can only pray to a God that doesn't listen. And barbarians aren't allowed to actually work with anyone outside their race. Oh it's a fun game, why will no one play???

 

(I surely hope everyone knows I'm kidding...)

[zornwil]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

This pretty much comes back to reality vs source material. Am I going to go from my current appearance to movie star overnight? No.

 

But Supers do it all the time. All a Super needs is a change of artist. Look at the early art for Superman, then look at a Curt Swan drawing. Steve ditko's Peter Parker and John Romita's reflect an almost overnight change from pure geek to decent looking guy, but that can be viewed as growing into his potential. Mind you, a lot of it was the hairstyle change, which any of us can do IRL.

You're saying in essence all a super needs is a visit from the Queer Eye guys?

[zornwil]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

I'll be doing something similar with SPD, starting with 3 points for +1 SPD act 8-. (extreme snipping)

 

Hugh, when do you roll the activation roll? Only beginning of combat? Each turn? Each phase?

[zornwil]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

Re: The Punisher thing.

 

Hugh Neilson has a point, folks. There are several kinds of "realism". I agree with him in that sometimes I find Punisher and Batman (non-powered guy who do all that shit!!!) much less realistic than Superman, but they're unrealistic in different ways.

 

There is the matter of "power enablers", stuff that grants the heroes and villains their abilities. Take the "Wild Cards" novels for instance, you have a very fantastic element - alien virus that gives people all kinds of superpowers - and this isn't "realistic" in that we've never seen anything like that in reality.

 

But once the specific powers are granted, the stories are realistic, in that the consequences of people running about with such powers are mostly logical, happening in a world with rules like our own. No one in Wild Cards who lacks an enhanced health (for instance, a telepath or a trained human) shrughs off a beating and wakes in the next day feeling fine.

 

Now take Batman. There are no overtly fantastic elements in his origin or his character, but c'mon. No Wild Card character could learn so many skills in so little time and be so good at all of them, no Wild Card character could win in almost every situation all by himself. No Wild Card character is a very famous celebrity while maintaning a secret identity that consists of a cowl that leaves half the face bare and no ones ever takes a picture of him and exposes him. I'd say that in Batman, the fantasy elements aren't in the power enabler, but in his heroic career.

 

I see different kinds of realism in play here. There is also the matter of psychological realism that is another whole can of worms.

Exactly, that was what I was alluding to when I talked about realism in the context.

 

On a somewhat different but clearly related point on this:

 

A Punisher who is faced with 100 guys shooting at him, isn't hit at all, kills everyone, then faces a regular mob boss who somehow kicks his ass for 5 panels, breaking several bones, then one-punches the mob boss, then seems healed and fine in a few days, is way less realistic in context than Superman facing those 100 guys, trying not to let the deflection of their bullets kill eachother, and then facing the mob boss who holds a hostage (naturally behind a lead curtain, since naturally lead alone stops x-ray eyes...) and defeats said boss by moving at the speed of light and vibrating through the lead shield and surprising him is relatively acceptable as "real" in the context.

[zornwil]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

I disagree since it is fairly well stated that HERO/Champions models low powered heroes at the start of their careers. That to me means that attribute increases are par for the course in a standard camapign where oftentimes the player had to par down the points to fit under the wire as it were.

 

Increasing *everything* on the sheet is not only implied under the rules, it is an essential part of the game.

 

Hawksmoor

I don't agree that is canonical game play. It is a recommended method of playing Champions and is often implied in material, but there is nothing in HERO or Champions as such that makes this inherent at all.

 

EDIT - well, actually I'm somewhat wrong. Because the game employs Experience Points as a base part of the system, I suppose it can be said at the least that "canonical" game play includes this as some sort of component.

[Rene]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

Exactly, that was what I was alluding to when I talked about realism in the context.

 

On a somewhat different but clearly related point on this:

 

A Punisher who is faced with 100 guys shooting at him, isn't hit at all, kills everyone, then faces a regular mob boss who somehow kicks his ass for 5 panels, breaking several bones, then one-punches the mob boss, then seems healed and fine in a few days, is way less realistic in context than Superman facing those 100 guys, trying not to let the deflection of their bullets kill eachother, and then facing the mob boss who holds a hostage (naturally behind a lead curtain, since naturally lead alone stops x-ray eyes...) and defeats said boss by moving at the speed of light and vibrating through the lead shield and surprising him is relatively acceptable as "real" in the context.

 

Nicely put.

 

Different genres have different ways of bending reality. The Punisher lives in action movie land, "realistic" in that the heroes are techically your standard model Homo Sapiens, but unrealistic in the dramatic liberties that allows for the action sequences to proceed as they should in respect to genre.

[zornwil]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

Skill levels? Have you ever noticed that when you increase your skill in a specific area that deals with dexterity that your overall dexterity seems to improve some as well?

 

Heh, that is SO not true for me personally.

 

I can't state at all, despite having worked in a sportswear company with many athletes, whether this is true in general for people either way.

 

As to intelligence, I don't know what you are reading but as an educator I can tell you that studying virtually anything in a methodical, proven way will increase your intelligence. Does that mean I'll be taking Einstein on any time soon? No. But it does mean that there is reasonable justification for increasing someone's starting intelligence score.

 

I think that isn't completely fair. You're talking about educating younger people or people who are older but actively seeking education in a formal setting. But people who just want to learn "something" often learn nothing at all about how to think or how to employ their intellect otherwise. As to older people who seek education, it seems inconclusive as to learning abilities and the degree to which a singular learning experience will boost their general intellect.

 

We have observed that if one does not learn to read by a certain age (I forget which) there are parts of their brain that never become stimulated again - even if they learn to read as an adult. That is quite fascinating, and begs the question of just how much we can learn or at least how we can learn later in some respects, anyway.

 

However, all that aside, I agree that in general there are those people who become sharper later in life. The notion of it in a comic book world for superheroes is entirely not only acceptable but commonly-held in my eyes.

 

Not raising characteristics is more realistic? I don't think so. And Hero aint generic. It's an adventure roleplaying game. It's meant to allow settings to be generic but it is obvious from the scale of the game that it is geared to the kinds of fantastic exploits in Pulp Novels, Comics, Spaghetti Westerns, Hindu Vedas, and Icelandic Sagas to name a few. You can play Normal Hero and that's cool - but MOST of the Hero System will not be used in that case.

 

And who said I was arguing there should be no reasonable explanation for an increase in characteristics? My point is that the House Rule basically says there isn't a reasonable explanation in a Superhero World which flummoxes me because there is a reasonable explanation in the Real World.

 

As far as increases in characteristics go, I think it's not only reasonable but again desirable in any sort of game emulating how supers grow, often quickly. Then again, I'm fine if a campaign doesn't allow it. I just want to make it clear at least that I agree with you in general in terms of my personal biases and the above points were a combo of nit-picks and devil's advocate on those specifics.

[zornwil]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

It's cool. My experiences have to do with being an Academic Coach, an AP Instructor of World History and Government, and some haphazard experience in Coaching Athletics. I've taken classes on Educational Psychology, Measurements and Analysis, and attended seminars on discussions of Intelligence Theory. I've witnessed cognitive leaps in students that I've taught. I've experienced cognitive leaps as a student myself. I've played ball and worked out and noticed that my reaction time, coordination, precision, agility, strength, endurance, mental quickness all increased. I've learned to read methodically, think in a disciplined fashion, and improve my memory. My personal and professional experiences tell me that, in the real world, Characteristics and Skills are intimately connected and that Characteristics rise as Skills attached to those Characteristics are earned.

 

I think the MOST realistic approach is to require a character who has bought X amount of dex skills, str skills, and so on to start raising the characteristic associated with those skills. The funny thing is that's generally how I spend my points.

 

The MOST realistic approach would also consider characteristic and skill "fatigue" through disuse but I'm not too interested in coming up with rules for that.

Aren't you like 30 now? I contend many of those things change (stultify) more and more with age, and brain studies are showing that may well be true at least in terms of intellect. Certainly you can't compare the experiences of your students to adults, anyway.

 

Though that would be important to bear in mind in a Teen Champions game. I'd like to do one but the only time I brought it up my group looked at me like I"d grown a third head. I know many of us (including me) didn't enjoy high school, but this is a fantasy!

[zornwil]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

It's only a game... really.

Ah, but gaming is a mirror of our real-life perceptions, filtered through fantasy and a ruleset designed to...

 

Just kidding, my pedantic streak is pretty well-satisfied by now...

[zornwil]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

Same here. I thought the change was attributable to his finally being allowed to hit his 30's.

Me, too, whether it's his 30s or late 20s or whatever, for the record.

[zornwil]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

Yeah' date=' I remember stories in the 70s where Parker still thinks of himself as a nerd but he was turning girls heads... and not noticing that it was happening. Heck, he always was good with the girls if you think about it. He just never realized he was. I don't think any woman I dated would have put up with as much as some of these girls did with Peter Parker's mysterious doings.[/quote']

Yeah, really. Most girlfriends would tell them if they didn't already catch it, "Don't you thnk he's involved with someone else?" or "Don't you see what a complete flake he is?" (edit - I mean re Peter Parker, not me!)

[Rene]

Re: My House Rules. Comments Welcome

 

Oh, come on, you know how easily confused orcs are! Those tricks would dazzle them. That's why in my fantasy RPG magic-users can only use tricks done by 20th century magicians. Similarly, clerics can only pray to a God that doesn't listen. And barbarians aren't allowed to actually work with anyone outside their race. Oh it's a fun game, why will no one play???

 

(I surely hope everyone knows I'm kidding...)

 

 

I laughed out loud at that, but I have to say that I know what these reviewers must have been thinking. To me, there *are* magic systems that "feel" more realistic than others, strange as that may seem.

 

First, there are systems that take the approach of borrowing from magical traditions that really existed on Earth and imagining "what if it really worked"*, and it makes for a greater sense of realism to me. Some go a similar route, but trying to create magic systems that feel appropriate for fictional cultures ("A Song of Ice and Fire" is a good fantasy series for this stuff).

 

Second, the quantum mechanics thing of perception shapes reality that is a hallmark of the magic in Ars Magica and Mage also seems very internally consistent.

 

Third, there are magic systems that gain in realism when they posit a entire worldview that makes the magic the logical consequence of said worldview.

 

Fourth, games and stories where magic is kind of like psionics but dressed in fancier outfits also seem to gain in realism for me.

 

Heh, it seems like I think all kinds of magic are fine and dandy. Not really, a magic system that always seemed somewhat "fake" to me is D&D (the wizards only, the other magic-user classes are kinda fine). I think it's style of magic was fine for a couple of Jack Vance stories from the 60s that tried to break from the mold and if limited to these stories only would have been amusingly quirky.

 

But the strange thing is that D&D magic, while looking unrealistic to me, works fine in a rules and gaming context. I call it "videogame" magic.

 

 

* I added this phrase for the materialistic folks that mostly compose this board. I'm in the very minority in that I don't necessarily believe all magic systems in the past were fakes. Comes from living in a very mystic-minded country like Brazil.