lapsedgamer Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it? Speaking as a guy who has had his own major clashes with Agent X, and can hardly be accused of being his friend... ... I don't see where any of your accusations against him in this thread contain any truth whatsoever. If anybody's trying to start a flamewar here, it's bblackmoor and you. If your positions could be defended, you'd be defending them on their own merits -- not counter-attacking with character assassination. And he's right, every word you used is so generalized that it can mean potentially anything, which means your argument didn't really commit itself to anything. I know better that this. I am so going to Hell for this--and a bunch of other things I've done, so I guess it balances out...Oh, well. Look, I said exactly what I meant. There is nothing wrong with this thread. There is nothing wrong with the concept of adult oriented storylines in comics or gaming, for those who like the idea. The genre has changed, and the changes have been both good and bad. I still like some things about the old style, and I still enjoy some stories written that way, though I prefer more Bronze to Iron Age scenarios. If I came off as wishy-washy, it was because I really just wanted the thread to go on without all this nonsense. I was not trying to pick an argument with anyone. Up until recently, I have tried to keep my response fairly neutral. My rational mind tells me that this is a pointless, circular conversation that I should have avoided at all costs. However, I cannot, as a rule, stand people who are deliberatley difficult without provocation. You both seem to be pretending not to know what basic words mean so you can alternately ignore, and then attack, a viewpoint that you don't like. I said what I wanted to say, in a simple, straightforward way. Some people might have agreed with me, others didn't. We should all be aware, while we are busily puffing ourselves up (I include myself in that; it's not an attack), that the vast majority of folks don't care one way or the other. Some of us just want to hear some interesting twists on the characters from the canon products. I do not claim to be a genius. I do not claim to be the greatest living authority on any topic. Hell, my taste is probably located in my rear end. I am often wrong, and I am willing to admit it when met with a reasonable alternative. I am also not pompous enough to post dictionary definitions as a means of countering another person's neutral, fairy innocent, statements of personal preference. IMHO, that was the first transgression. I realized that I was enjoying something that you don't seem to like, or agree with, but that's not a crime. Sorry to have to be so blunt. You know,in the end, I just like talking to other people who like Champions and comics. I have not read Identity Crisis, so I cannot comment on it. I could either love it or hate it. I don't know. I point to Watchmen, Hellblazer, Alias (previously mentioned), The Ultimates and Top Ten as examples of good writing involving adult themes in comics. If I have caused excessive offense, I apologize. I just wanted to get that off my chest. Can we all just get along now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it? Okay, so the subject is giving the Champions universe a coat of "ultimate" paint. Genocide I haven't used them in a long time, but one of my favorite villainous agencies from the Champions setting has always been Genocide. But really, Genocide is already a so-called "Iron Age" villain agency. They're ruthless, they have (or have had) government connections, they manipulate paranormals and experiment on them in unwholesome ways, and ultimately their goal is to eliminate a whole lot of people, permanently. So I'm not sure what else I would do to make them more "ironic" . Other than the silly giant robots, of course. When I ran Genocide as a villain in a campaign a few years ago, I augmented (and eventually replaced) the giant robots with human-looking hunter-killers which were tailored for a specific target. Many people theorized that these various synthetic hunters (large and small) were artificially intelligent, but they weren't: they were just very sophisticated robots. Later, in a fairly convoluted story line, a hunter-killer from the future ("mark 13" -- the hunter-killers in the current timeline were "mark 9") was sent back in time to do the whole Terminator thing (either that, or it got sucked into a temporal vortex the superhero team created as part of an unrelated plot -- it's been a long time, and my memory is fuzzy on the details). Mark 13 genuinely was an AI, having been constructed using technology recovered from a homocidal alien form of machine life which had not yet, at that time, appeared in the game. The funny thing was that Mark 13, while ostensibly a Genocide hunter-killer, did not answer to current-timeline Genocide or follow their orders, but it would periodically enter their bases to use equipment, repair itself, or whatever (it had all of their security codes, and if they changed them, it had those, too). In a few game sessions, the PCs found themselves fighting alongside Genocide against Mark 13, or vice versa. It was a circular plot, and like all time travel plots it made no sense and it wasn't terribly original, but it was a lot of fun anyway. So anyway, if I were to increase the iron content of the Champions universe, I'd start with Genocide, and those giant robots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it? Does that constitute tough talking as well? Not really. It means I communicate this forthrightly in person as well as on computer and I've never had anyone assault me for it, yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it? So anyway, if I were to increase the iron content of the Champions universe, I'd start with Genocide, and those giant robots. I dunno. Ultimate Xmen has a high giant robot content and its pretty Iron Age and a not a bad example of the genre/mood/whatever you want to call it. The key, IMO, is making those giant robots actually dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it? I dunno. Ultimate Xmen has a high giant robot content and its pretty Iron Age and a not a bad example of the genre/mood/whatever you want to call it. Maybe so, but the Giant Robot Extravaganza is one reason I stopped reading X-Men. It'd be like reading Superman if every other issue featured Mr. Mxyzptlk. It just seemed back then like they would seize on a single idea and beat it to bloody death. Whether it was Attack Of The Fifty-Foot Robots, Time Traveling Mutant Hysteria From The Year 3000, or the Why-the-hell-won't-she-just-DIE-already Phoenix Saga, I just got really, really tired of reading the same damned story over and over. New Mutants was much better, at least for a long time. That was all a long time ago. It's probably all different now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it? Maybe so, but the Giant Robot Extravaganza is one reason I stopped reading X-Men. It'd be like reading Superman if every other issue featured Mr. Mxyzptlk. It just seemed back then like they would seize on a single idea and beat it to bloody death. Whether it was Attack Of The Fifty-Foot Robots, Time Traveling Mutant Hysteria From The Year 3000, or the Why-the-hell-won't-she-just-DIE-already Phoenix Saga, I just got really, really tired of reading the same damned story over and over. New Mutants was much better, at least for a long time. That was all a long time ago. It's probably all different now. - My point was to counter your seeming asseration that "Giant Robots" were innately wrong for a Iron Age setting. If you feel the idea has been over used, that's a fine opinion but it doesn't mean they're innately wrong for the mood. You just don't care for them very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Re: Ultimate Champions: How would you do it? If you feel the idea has been over used' date=' that's a fine opinion but it doesn't mean they're innately wrong for the mood. You just don't care for them very much.[/quote'] Um... yeah. You say that like you expected there to be some other explanation. One the one hand, I think giant robots are inherently silly, and render any comic they appear in at least 42% more silly (*), on average, than the comic would be without them. On the other hand, what little tolerance I might have otherwise had for giant robot silliness was pretty much exhausted by the X-Men, and I still have not quite recovered from that trauma lo these many years later. My main point being that, giant robots aside, I think Genocide is already pretty "ironic". (* this statistic is completely meaningless) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.