Marksman Skill Build

[Aazendar]

Hi all, first post here.

 

I just recently started playing HERO about 2 weeks ago with my gaming group. They had been playing for a few weeks, and I had just been watching, and then finally decided to join in. I built a character based on the character Christian Bale played in Equilibrium, with the exception he used rifles as his primary weapon. Originally I wanted to built my own multi-fire gun using the powers rules, but our GM decided against it, and recommended I buy a standard gun from dark champions. So I did.

 

All the skills I chose were pretty straight forward. Most focused on marksmanship and increasing my OCV and damage.

 

All in all I ended up with around +14OCV and a total damage of 6d6 RKA.

 

While this more than made a competant rifleman, it isnt very realistic. So far I've fired 7shots in game and killed 7 guys. No just humans mind you, but some robot minion things that fit the campaign. One was even a buffed up seargant!

 

Anyway, I wanted to create a skill call Marksmanship and ditch all the others I have. I image it would look something like this:

 

Multipower

-If I fire a single shot: +3d6 RKA, +15OCV, +3Rmod

- 2-4 Shots: +2d6 RKA, +12OCV, +2Rmod

- 5-7 Shots: +1d6 RKA, +9OCV, +1Rmod

 

Im not really sure how I could work this out, but I know there has to be a way, or at least I hope there is.

 

BTW: The gun I use has a 7 Round Clip, hence the numbers I've chosen.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

Welcome, Aazendar. I hope you enjoy HERO, and your visits here to the boards. I think you're in for quite a ride.

 

Well, the first thing that I would ask after hearing your remarks is: is this campaign based around normal people, or superhumans? That 6D6 RKA is very high damage for a heroic-level campaign. That's 18 Damage Classes, high even for most superheroic games. If your opposition is more along the lines of normal humans I'm not surprised that you keep one-shotting them. Also, +14 OCV is nearly inhumanly accurate. Overall it sounds as though your character is overpowered offensively for the kind of opposition you're facing.

 

With new players it's normally the responsibility of the Game Master to keep the power levels and the opposition reasonably close. Has your GM made any remarks to you about what's been happening? How familiar is he/she with HERO System, and gaming in general?

 

Whether you guys are playing using the HERO System Fifth Edition core rulebook, or HERO System Sidekick, there are tables near the beginning of the book called "Character Types Guidelines Table" and "Character Ability Guidelines Table" which gives suggested ranges for Characteristics, Combat Value, Damage Classes, Skill Rolls etc. related to the points that characters are built on. If you and your GM haven't looked at that, I'd suggest doing so; they're useful for keeping characters competitive with each other and the opposition, and within the conventions for the type of campaign you want to run.

 

The Multipower concept you're describing isn't really a Skill as HERO describes it: it's a Power Framework, and those are so efficient that they have to be used carefully to avoid being unbalancing. For example, while it's common to have a Power that adds to another, it's potentially abusive to put several of those as slots in one Multipower.

 

Finally, as a point of comparison I'm going to offer you a link to a writeup of Christian Bale's character from Equilibrium, so that you can see one more experienced HERO gamer's approach to interpreting the character:

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionsmovie/johnpreston.html

 

I expect that you'll have more questions or concerns after this. Feel free to post them and give us more information, and once we know more about your situation we may be able to give you more targetted help.

[Aazendar]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

Well the campaign we're playing is definately tough. Probably tougher than most people play. If you'd ask any of the other players what campaign they're playing they'd probably say "We're playing the one you die in"

 

While I totaly agree 6d6 is too powerfull, its not really in our campaign. Hence the reason I feel its alright that I can inflict that much damage, but only if I fire a single shot. That shot should also take a while longer to fire than a normal shot, and possibly require a roll to see if I can find the necessary vulnerable spot to even make that much damage possible.

 

Also keep in mind that this character is one of, if not the best riflemen in history. And that our opponents are no where near the normal human standards. Most have heavy armor, damage reduction or resistance, and come in large groups. In our last session alone, 2 of the 6 players we have were knocked out and nearly killed. And that was even with me killing 5 guys in a single phase

 

I really want to group all the combat skills into one like I posted above. Whether its actually a 'skill' or not doesnt matter to me. I suppose it would really be more of a power than a skill. And it wouldn't be abused, as it stands now I can legally take as many shots as I want at +14OCV and 6d6RKA, but it just seems too unrealistic. I can easily imagine a superior marksman taking down even the toughest opponent with 1 well placed shot, lol but not 5 or 6.

Between the decreased OCV bonus and the normal penalties, firing more than one shot becomes increasingly less effective, as it should.

[Savinien]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

Can you just use the SWEEP rules to apply OCV penalties to subsequent shots (and DCV penalties for using the manuever)?

[Aazendar]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

Does sweep let you fire more than one shot at a target? The goal here is to be able to allocate any number of shots to any number of enemies.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

The optional Sweep Maneuver allows you to attack multiple times against a single foe or multiple opponents in hand-to-hand combat, with OCV penalties based on the number of attacks. The ranged version of this is the Rapid Fire Maneuver. See "Combat Maneuvers" in the main rulebook.

[Aazendar]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

All other things aside, how would you build a power like the one I described? I would want it to only be usable with the model rifle I used, and not usable while any other skills/powers are being used. It would require full consentration. It would also be reasonable to say that I couldn't even move in the phases it is being used.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

To get it to work exactly like you described, buy a huge OCV bonus with Sweep, then +xd6 RKA, +x OCV, +x RMod not while firing more than y bullets. It'll take a little fiddling to get it 100% exact, though.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

All other things aside' date=' how would you build a power like the one I described? I would want it to only be usable with the model rifle I used, and not usable while any other skills/powers are being used. It would require full consentration. It would also be reasonable to say that I couldn't even move in the phases it is being used.[/quote']

 

Hmm... if I understand you correctly, you want to be able to do X total amount of damage with Y total OCV bonus when using this rifle, and only this rifle, i.e. if the rifle is taken away the character can't use this ability, and he won't get these benefits with any other type of firearm. You also want the damage and bonus to vary based on the number of shots used, smaller if he fires more bullets. Do I have that right?

 

If that's the case, my suggestion would be to adapt the Multipower concept you presented in your first post; but rather than adding to the damage from the rifle, I'd build this as a straight Power with the Reserve of the Multipower large enough to accomodate the largest total RKA, plus the largest total Skill Level that applies to it, and apply an Obvious Accessible Focus Limitation on the whole Multipower representing the rifle. To that you can add Limitations for Charges, Extra Time, Concentration or whatever else you deem appropriate.

 

To get the multiple shots, I'd buy Autofire on the RKA for each slot to which it applies: +1/2 for 4-5 shots, +1 for 6-10.

 

Note that putting Combat and Penalty Skill Levels into a Multipower is a GM's permission thing. Since you're putting Limitations on those Levels you'll have to use 5-pt. CSLs and 3-pt. CSLs as the minimum.

 

Does that make sense?

[Aazendar]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

Yeah that makes sense. So it would look something like this?

 

40 : Reserve : 120 Point Reserve, OAF (-1), Concentration: 0DCV (-1/2), 7 Charges (-1/2)

7 : +3d6RKA (45), +12OCV (60), +3OCV (15) only for Rmod (-1/2), Extra Time Full Phase (-1/2) total: 75

8 : +2d6RKA (30), +9OCV (45), +2OCV (10) only for Rmod (-1/2) total: 80

 

I think that would work. The full phase limitation makes it possible to fire only one shot per phase, while with the other slot, you could fire as many as possible using sweep. lol, this would be much easier with a rulebook. All I have is the Sidekick book, so my points might be a little different.

 

BTW, does anyone know when the revised rulebook is comming out? I have it pre-ordered but no idea when its getting released!!

 

p.s. I appologize if this is completely wrong, I still only have a vague idea of what im doing

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

Well, that wasn't quite what I had in mind. You're still using this Multipower as an addition to the damage that's ordinarily done by a rifle; if normal weapons and equipment in your campaign are bought with money rather than Character Points, I'd be wary of a power built that way if I was the Game Master. I was originally suggesting that you put the whole 6D6 RKA that is your maximum damage into the Multipower, with your character's rifle as the Focus for the whole thing.

 

However, if your GM has no problem with the construct you propose, I guess I can't complain. I would think that the rifle would have to have the Autofire capability itself, though; adding bonus damage that can be Autofired to a weapon that can't normally Autofire wouldn't make much sense.

 

Let me add a couple of technical notes: a Power that has the Autofire Advantage doesn't require any special maneuvers to be able to fire multiple times, and one target or several - that's what the Advantage does (as per the description of Autofire). I suggested building it this way rather than using a Maneuver, because as far as I can see it's the simplest way to get the damage/# of shots tradeoff that you want.

 

Also, overcoming the Range Modifier is done with Penalty Skill Levels, not Combat Skill Levels with a Limitation. Each PSL used in this way would count as +1 only vs. the Range Modifier. The smallest PSL that you can put Limitations on is 3 Character Points. Hence getting +3 vs. the Range Mod (as in the first slot of your writeup) would cost 9 points before Limitations, not 15; but it wouldn't take an "Only for Rmod" Lim.

[Aazendar]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

Ok, I understand what you're saying about autofire now (finally ). Everytime someone mentioned autofire I kept thinking like sub-machine gun type weapons, not just a rifle fired quickly.

 

I also understand what you're saying about having a power that affects a weapon instead of the damage all comming from the power itself. I see how easily it could be abused, but I wouldnt use it like that so no worries there

 

Anyway, I think this would be better than my previous way.

 

47 166 Point Reserve, OAF(rifle) (-1),Concen. 0DCV (-1/2) 4 Round Clip (-1)

16 6d6 RKA, +12OCV, +3PSL = 159

11 4d6 RKA, +9OCV, +2PSL, Autofire = 166

 

74 Total Points

 

Kinda high price, but excellent power

 

Any futher comments?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

Yeah, that's looking more like what I had suggested. I'm glad you find that build satisfactory.

 

I'm not quite sure what size of Autofire Advantage you've taken on your second slot to get 166 Active Points; I just want to be sure you know that Autofire would be applied to the cost of the Power, but not the Skill Levels.

 

Also, the Limitations you've taken on the Multipower reserve also apply to the slots, so the cost of those would also be proportionately reduced. Assuming your slots are Fixed as opposed to Variable (which seems likely since you want them to be either-or), the cost of the first slot would be 4.7, rounded to 5, points. Makes the construct significantly cheaper.

[Aazendar]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

Just a quick stupid question: How did you get 4.7 for the cost of the first slot? I've tried to work it out a hundred ways and didnt get that number. I think I applying the limitations wrong or somthing.

 

Thanks for all your help btw!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Marksman Skill Build

 

Just a quick stupid question: How did you get 4.7 for the cost of the first slot? I've tried to work it out a hundred ways and didnt get that number. I think I applying the limitations wrong or somthing.

 

Thanks for all your help btw!

 

You're welcome, and it's not a stupid question at all. The ins and outs of this system take some getting used to.

 

The cost of a Fixed slot in a Multipower = Real Points in the slot/10. The Real Points in the slot are figured after any Limitations on the Reserve that also apply to the slot, and as far as I can tell from how you built this Multipower, all the Limitations apply. So, based on 166 Active Points, the Real Points would be 47, just as your calculation came out. If the Active Points in the slot equals the Reserve the Real Points would also be 47, so the slot would cost one-tenth that, or 4.7, which rounds up to 5. (If the Active Points in the slot were less than the full 166, so that the Real Points came out to 45 or lower, then the cost of the slot would round down to 4.)