Activation and RSR

[Sean Waters]

If you have two 60 points powers defined as 'Magic blast and Magic shield', and you have RSR on both (Magic roll) and you stick your Magic shield up you take a -6 on the roll.

 

With the shield up, you Magic Blast someone. What is the penalty for the blast? -6 or -12: there are now 120 APs of magic power?

[jackalope]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

If you have two 60 points powers defined as 'Magic blast and Magic shield', and you have RSR on both (Magic roll) and you stick your Magic shield up you take a -6 on the roll.

 

With the shield up, you Magic Blast someone. What is the penalty for the blast? -6 or -12: there are now 120 APs of magic power?

 

The penalty is -6. Only the power that requires the skill roll is considered when calculating the penalty.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

The penalty is -6. Only the power that requires the skill roll is considered when calculating the penalty.

 

...but what if they were, for instance, linked (OK FF and EB are a bad example, say FF and flight): does it then become one power in essence? After all you are trying to manipulate a total of 120 points of magic power at a time...

 

However I rather agree with your interpretation, which leads to this interesting point: if you do have 2x60 point powers with RSR, the real cost is 80 points. You can buy a magic skill for 3 points (11-) + 12 levels (to give you 17- after active point penalties) for 27 points, total cost 107 points, a 13 point for a power that is only limited to the extent that it fails one time in 216. The more powers you have on that RSR the more you save. Seems wrong to me. Seems like points for free.

 

I was going to suggest that, no matter how high your skill roll, the best RSR roll you can make is 14- and anything over that can only be used to counter situational penalties. At least the perceiveable penalty for having the limitation actually limits the power.

 

While we are on activation roll values, it strikes me that the values in FRED are wrong: 15- fails one time in 20, 14- fails (less than) 1 time in 5 and so on, so assuming that -1/4 means you lose about 1/4 of the utility, the progression should be:

 

11-...........-1

12-...........-3/4

13-...........-1/2

14-...........-1/4

15-...........-0 (so you can buy jammed)

 

I know it has been the way it is now forever, but we have maths now.

[jackalope]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

...but what if they were' date=' for instance, linked (OK FF and EB are a bad example, say FF and flight): does it then become one power in essence? After all you are trying to manipulate a total of 120 points of magic power at a time...[/quote']

 

Let me make sure I understand what were talking about:

Cost Power

13

Force Field

(10 PD/10 ED); Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2) (20 AP)

10

Flight

10"; Linked (Force Field; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2) (20 AP)

Powers Cost: 23

 

I would rule that this requires two skill rolls, each at -2. First the FF, then the Flight, because if the FF fails, the Flight can't activate.

 

Though, it might make more sense to build the power like this:

Cost Power

10

Force Field

(10 PD/10 ED); Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 5 Active Points; -1)

13

Flight

10"; Linked (Force Field; -1/2)

Powers Cost: 23

 

Or like this:

Cost Power

11

Force Field

(10 PD/10 ED); Requires A Skill Roll And A Skill Roll (-3/4)

13

Flight

10"; Linked (Force Field; -1/2)

Powers Cost:

24

 

It really depends on the effect you're trying to achieve. If the character can always fly when his force field is up, but can't always get his force field up, then the second or third build is best. If the character can sometimes fly when his force field is up, but can never fly when is force field is down, and can't always get his force field up, then the skill roll on each power is superior.

 

With the second and third methods, you have two options. You can make one skill roll at -4, or two skill rolls at -2. I'm too lazy to do the math, but I think you do get a nominally better chance with the

 

I was going to suggest that, no matter how high your skill roll, the best RSR roll you can make is 14- and anything over that can only be used to counter situational penalties. At least the perceiveable penalty for having the limitation actually limits the power.

 

The guidelines suggest an average skill roll of 11- to 15- for Superheroic games, and I see no reason to exempt Power skills from that rule. And of course, any limitation that doesn't limit the character is not worth any points. That's why the value of the Requires A Characteristic Roll (variant on RSR) limitation drops the higher the base attribute roll is:

 

Cost Power

10

Force Field

(10 PD/10 ED); Requires A COM Roll (-1)

0 +0

COM

Powers Cost: 10

 

Cost Power

11

Force Field

(10 PD/10 ED); Requires A COM Roll (-3/4)

5 +10

COM

Powers Cost: 16

 

Cost Power

16

Force Field

(10 PD/10 ED); Requires A COM Roll (-1/4)

10 +20

COM

Powers Cost: 26

 

It wouldn't be unreasonable to apply a similar rule to RSR, and reduce or increase the value of the limitation according to the skill roll.

 

While we are on activation roll values, it strikes me that the values in FRED are wrong: 15- fails one time in 20, 14- fails (less than) 1 time in 5 and so on, so assuming that -1/4 means you lose about 1/4 of the utility, the progression should be:

 

11-...........-1

12-...........-3/4

13-...........-1/2

14-...........-1/4

15-...........-0 (so you can buy jammed)

 

I know it has been the way it is now forever, but we have maths now.

 

I agree that, on the surface, the table seems skewed, especially when compared with the stated values for Limited Power:

1:1.7 Chance of Failure

10 1) Force Field (10 PD/10 ED); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (-1)

10 2) Force Field (10 PD/10 ED); Activation Roll 11- (-1)

1:2.9 Chance of Failure

13 1) Force Field (10 PD/10 ED); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (-1/2)

11 2) Force Field (10 PD/10 ED); Activation Roll 12- (-3/4)

1:5.2 Chance of Failure

20 1) Force Field (10 PD/10 ED), Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (+0)

11 2) Force Field (10 PD/10 ED); Activation Roll 13- (-3/4)

1:9.8 Chance of Failure

20 1) Force Field (10 PD/10 ED), Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (+0)

13 2) Force Field (10 PD/10 ED); Activation Roll 14- (-1/2)

 

It does seem a bit broken. I like your progression, it works a bit better. Ultimately, I think Activation Roll should be worth a little bit more than Limited Power, if only because Limited Power is generally predictable, whereas Activation Rolls are not. If you have a EB that doesn't work on robots, you aren't going to attempt to use it on robots. But an EB with an ActRoll might crap out on you when you need it most.

 

If you think that lack of predictability is worth (-1/2) on it's own, then I'd go with the current (albeit slightly broken) table. If you want it to more purely reflect the actual odds, and you want their to be a meaningful difference between 12- and 13- (which appeals to me), I'd use your table.

 

Edit: Having read my own post, I think your progression table makes a lot more sense. It still gives slightly more limitation than the Limited Power would, to reflect the unpredictability, but makes more sense with the math. Good job!

[Rapier]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

I was thinking the other way, a new limitation.

 

Cumulative RSR: The limitation is particularly appropriate for magical characters. The penalty for the skill roll is determine by the number of active points in use FOR ALL POWERS WITH THIS LIMITATION. If the RSR is defined as requiring LUCK, all LUCK values are cumulative also. Value is x2 the normal cost of the RSR.

 

Phase 2: MageyDude flips on FF (10 rPD/10 rED) after making his Magical Roll at -2.

 

Phase 4: MageyDude needs to get some distance from the combat. He casts Flap Like a Bird (10" Flight). MageyDude needs to roll his Magical Skill Activation Roll. He is -2 for Flight and an additional -2 for the FF he has running, for a total of -4.

 

Same scenario:

 

Phase 2: MD flips on FF (requires 2 Luck)

 

Phase 4: MD flies (requires 4 Luck)

 

It could even be mixed. A CumRSR at -1 / 5 and a CumRSR at -1 / 10.

 

I actually really like this idea. It makes a lot of logical sense since the mage would, in effect, be juggling spells. I think this would also do a great deal to even out the effects of mages. Mages can get HUGELY powerful in Hero and I think this would be a good way to even the playing field for the warriors/thieves etc.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

The guidelines suggest an average skill roll of 11- to 15- for Superheroic games' date=' and I see no reason to exempt Power skills from that rule. And of course, any limitation that doesn't limit the character is not worth any points. [/quote']

 

Trouble is, for a 60 AP power a 15- skill would only activate the power on 9-' you need a base roll of 17- just to make it a 11- RSR or 20- for a 14- (I use this as an example because the limitation value of 14- is -1/2, the same as the value for RSR).

 

Thanks for the examples BTW. Most illuminating.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

I was thinking the other way, a new limitation.

 

Cumulative RSR: The limitation is particularly appropriate for magical characters. The penalty for the skill roll is determine by the number of active points in use FOR ALL POWERS WITH THIS LIMITATION. If the RSR is defined as requiring LUCK, all LUCK values are cumulative also. Value is x2 the normal cost of the RSR.

 

Phase 2: MageyDude flips on FF (10 rPD/10 rED) after making his Magical Roll at -2.

 

Phase 4: MageyDude needs to get some distance from the combat. He casts Flap Like a Bird (10" Flight). MageyDude needs to roll his Magical Skill Activation Roll. He is -2 for Flight and an additional -2 for the FF he has running, for a total of -4.

 

Same scenario:

 

Phase 2: MD flips on FF (requires 2 Luck)

 

Phase 4: MD flies (requires 4 Luck)

 

It could even be mixed. A CumRSR at -1 / 5 and a CumRSR at -1 / 10.

 

I actually really like this idea. It makes a lot of logical sense since the mage would, in effect, be juggling spells. I think this would also do a great deal to even out the effects of mages. Mages can get HUGELY powerful in Hero and I think this would be a good way to even the playing field for the warriors/thieves etc.

 

I like this idea too, well done. It will mean powerful Magi can keep lots of effects going at once, whereas Newbies can match any of the effects, but only one or two at a time. Far too easily abused for most superheroic games though...it would only work where all 'powers' have to be bought RSR for the same skill.

[Frenchman]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

Great Idea Rapier! I like the idea and I will suggest it as a variant in our next fantasy game.

Addressing the concern over having skill rolls so high that they are always 17-:

First is campaign maximums. If you have AP caps similar to those reccommended on page 15 of The Book, why don't you have the skill roll caps just a couple inches away?

In my fantasy games, I limit the character's skill rolls (all of them, not just power skills) so that it can be no higher than the characteristic they're based on. Since NCM is in effect, and it is very rare for any character to exceed it, the skill roll pretty much always means something except with the most minor powers.

Also, just like any other skill, situational penalties apply.

GM "You are suffering a -3 penalty to your magic rolls."

Mage "What? Thats ridiculous! Theres nothing in the book that penalizes magic rolls!"

GM "No, but you are fighting in a sewer, and its difficult to properly pronounce your spell's incantations while gagging."

Also, the wonderful Change Environment power can devastate a character with a skill-based power.

In addition, if a character attempts to activate more than one RSR power at a time (in the same phase) I make him stack the penalties together and make one roll to represent that it is difficult to do several things at once. Continuous powers that have already been activated don't count.

[jackalope]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

Trouble is' date=' for a 60 AP power a 15- skill would only activate the power on 9-' you need a base roll of 17- just to make it a 11- RSR or 20- for a 14- (I use this as an example because the limitation value of 14- is -1/2, the same as the value for RSR).[/quote']

 

That's why the -1/20 AP and No AP Penalty mods exist.

 

I as a GM would allow a player to buy Penalty Skill levels to offset the AP penalty of specific powers (at 1 pt per -1) after play began, but not during character creation.

[Frenchman]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

That's why the -1/20 AP and No AP Penalty mods exist.

I always hated the No AP Penalty mod. It makes a standard skill roll A: No different than an activation roll, and B: Worth less (as a disadvantage) than it would be if bought for an activation roll.

Most of the time when I buy a skill roll, it is 13- to 15-, and if No Ap Penalty was applied, the RSR limitation would be worth -0. How is a chance of failure, especially when it's a pretty decent one, not limiting? I just do away with it and buy an activation roll instead.

[Rapier]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

That's why the -1/20 AP and No AP Penalty mods exist.

 

I as a GM would allow a player to buy Penalty Skill levels to offset the AP penalty of specific powers (at 1 pt per -1) after play began, but not during character creation.

I've even allowed a little greater utility.

 

+1 PSL (Only when in the temple of player's god)

+3 PSL (costs x4 END) etc

 

Penalties are all good, and shouldn't be able to be bought off (otherwise why have em to begin with), but I don't have a problem with a couple specific PSLs to help in some specific situations.

[Black Rose]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

I always hated the No AP Penalty mod. It makes a standard skill roll A: No different than an activation roll' date=' and B: Worth less (as a disadvantage) than it would be if bought for an activation roll.[/quote']

 

Well A: that's cause it IS no different than an Activation roll, except you bother to make it equal a skill, and B: that's one of those balance things.

 

See, the difference between Activation and RSR is, I can improve my RSR for only a couple points, and if I've got a bunch of powers based off the same skill, it becomes even more efficient. Therefore, it's not all that penalising to have RSR if I can negate the minuses with a handful of points.

 

Most of the time when I buy a skill roll, it is 13- to 15-, and if No Ap Penalty was applied, the RSR limitation would be worth -0. How is a chance of failure, especially when it's a pretty decent one, not limiting? I just do away with it and buy an activation roll instead.

 

Always a way to go, and I do it myself at times.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

Well A: that's cause it IS no different than an Activation roll, except you bother to make it equal a skill, and B: that's one of those balance things.

 

See, the difference between Activation and RSR is, I can improve my RSR for only a couple points, and if I've got a bunch of powers based off the same skill, it becomes even more efficient. Therefore, it's not all that penalising to have RSR if I can negate the minuses with a handful of points.

 

But if you can negate a limitation for less points than you save, it is no longer a limitation, it is just a cost break. A non-limiting limitation wouldn't be worth anything, so if you negated it the points you saved would go away...

[TaxiMan]

Re: Activation and RSR

 

Well A: that's cause it IS no different than an Activation roll, except you bother to make it equal a skill, and B: that's one of those balance things.

 

See, the difference between Activation and RSR is, I can improve my RSR for only a couple points, and if I've got a bunch of powers based off the same skill, it becomes even more efficient. Therefore, it's not all that penalising to have RSR if I can negate the minuses with a handful of points.

 

Actually, the big difference between RSR and Activation is that RSR only has to be made once for a Continuous power, while Activation must be made every phase.

 

That's why I'd never take Activation for most defenses or movement powers; it's way too limiting for the points.