VPP and Continuing Charges

[Guest innominatus]

I was experimenting recently with a concept for a "super-mage" NPC, and wanted to get the opinion of other GM's on how they would handle this particular wrinkle in the rules...

 

The character has a 60 pt. Variable Power Pool, and I was thinking about supplementing her raw abilities with a few talismans and other magic items. Then I got to reading the "Continuing Charges" section of the rules -- specifically, how once you've activated a Charge for a power in a VPP or Multipower, you could then shift your points around and the power's Charge would continue to run its course. And it occurred to me that you could build powers with a single, LONG-lasting Charge (a +2 Advantage will get you a charge with a life of 1 Century, or a single "Fuel" Charge good for up to 25 years of continuous use), activate the charge, and the magic dingus you made would effectively continue working for the life of the character, while said character then shifted the points to do whatever else he wanted. Granted, with a 60 pt. Pool and a +2 Advantage on the power, the base power would only be worth 20 pts or less. But by the letter of the rules, these powered Foci you created would be more-or-less permanent, and there's no upper limit to how many magic items you could grind out and use. PLUS, you could give the stuff away and they would continue working almost like an Independent Focus, but without losing any character points or tying up points in your VPP.

 

Has anyone else ever tried this, or had someone in a campaign attempt such a trick? What sort of ground rules would you set for such a character so as to limit the obvious potential for abuse? My knee jerk reaction would be to limit the number of "activated charge" magic items the character would have in possession at one time, sort of like the "Delayed Effect" Advantage -- "you can only have INT/5 magic items on your person at one time" or something like that. Either that, or say you could have a number of items whose Real Point total values do not exceed the number of points in the VPP's reserve.

 

Your thoughts?

[SkyKnight]

I haven't tried it, but here are a couple of thoughts.

 

1 - A GM may want to consider requiring the "uncontrolled" advantage on any power that you intend to do this with.

 

2 - The items may have to stay within the original range of the powers used to create them.

 

3 - The powers can be dispelled normally.

 

4 - Continuing charges need a reasonably common way to turn off, per the rules. If you use this ability much, your enemies will quickly learn how to turn them off.

 

5 - Blah blah blah, dramatic sense, blah blah blah. Some sort of Steve Long boilerplate. The GM always wins.

[DigitalGolem]

I ran into this problem running Fantasy Hero a few years ago, but this applies to the Hero system in general, so I'm offering my idea on how to handle it here. I use the term "permanent" to mean any spell or effect which has an extended duration from the Persistent, Inherent, Continuous charges, or other advantages.

 

I allowed magic-using characters to have up to Ego/5 spells active at the same time. (As opposed to Int/5; magic was defined as "an act of will" in this campaign.) I eliminated the ban on permanent spells, but they counted against the Ego/5 limit. The "in-game" result was that spell-casters could create permanent spells, but they had to give up a spell slot for the duration. And they could only do it up to Ego/5 times in their entire life. (or until the "permanent" spell was somehow ended.)

 

The long-term result was that most magic-users would do this only after careful consideration, and when they did, it was a major life event for them. It had a lasting influence, not only on the game-world, but also on the character's reputation. Create a shrine where visitors' ailments are cured, and your character would be considered a saint. Cast a curse on a place or a family, and you'll be remembered as an arch-villain for generations.

 

I hope somebody finds this idea useful; I realize it won't be appropriate for some campaigns and/or playing styles.

 

thx,

 

DGv3.0

[bjbrown]

In a high-magic game, I don't think that creating semi-permanent, low-powered magic items is really a problem. That a super-mage could whip up a bunch of water-breathing talismans for his pals isn't something that that would concern me much.

 

In a low-magic game, I would consider that problematic and start imposing additional limits on the power to enforce the genre. such as no continuing charge lasting more than a few hours or such. But if you were in a low-magic game, you probably wouldn't be using power frameworks for magic anyway.

 

For some reason I'm assuming this is a Fantasy Hero type game. Even in a super game, I'm not sure that it would overly bother me. As has already been stated, there are ways of turning off the charges. Usable by others could be required of anything that might routinely be given out to buddies. Making little magic items just seems to me to be something that super-magi do.

 

I remember the headache I had in the D&D game I used to DM. Two characters started using Continual Light and Continual Darkness to make permanent magic items every day, and when they had more than they could use, they passed them out like candy. Ugh.

[Guest innominatus]

>>For some reason I'm assuming this is a Fantasy Hero type

>>game. Even in a super game, I'm not sure that it would >>overly bother me. As has already been stated, there are

>>ways of turning off the charges. Usable by others could be

>>required of anything that might routinely be given out to >>buddies. Making little magic items just seems to me to be >>something that super-magi do.

 

Actually, I'd argue with your assertion that the items would require the Advantage "Usable on Others". That's kinda the whole point of Foci -- it's now the OBJECT that contains the power, not the caster using the power THROUGH someone else.

 

And for the record, the character in question was to be for a superheroic campaign.

[bjbrown]

The FAQ (under Power Limitations - Focus, first question ) suggests it would be appropriate to require Usable By Others on a power bought on a focus, if the character lends that focus out to other characters more than occasionally.

[Killer Shrike]

If you lend out items in a VPP to pals, it still counts against the VPP. Only if they are lost or stolen does it not count against the VPP. Also, this only applies if you did not take FOCUS on the Control Cost as well. If you did apply FOCUS to the Control Cost, then the points always count against the VPP whether you lend an item out or the item is lost/stolen. Pg 210 FREd "Loosing Powers"

 

As far as Continuous Charges, 1 Century is 15 steps down the time chart and which is a +1 Advantage, and further all Continuous Charges must have a 'reasonably common' pre-defined way to stop them. Also, +1 is half the advantage total of a 0 END Contin Uncontrolled ability which would be usable as many times as was desired, so the opportunity cost on that is fairly high.

 

So, to do this in a 60 pool VPP, you would have 30 base points to play around with if you dont apply any other advantages (beacause of the +1 from the Century Charge) AND there must be a common way to shut the power down. Whatever you decide on as the reasonably common method of ending the charge, its highly unlikely to survive its full duration unless it is benign for all comers -- including enemies (thus no one would want to shut it down). So, looking at it from that perspective its not that big of a deal IMO. YMMV.....

[coach]

Well, if you are worried about abuse of VPP by a player, you should probably just disallow that player from having one. I regularly play VPPs and know of SO many ways to abuse them. One of the easiest is Aid. Just take your Aid whatever and jack it up to were it fades per day and smack it on you and all your friends every day, and all of a sudden everyone is more powerful than their points reflect. So, really, the only way to control VPP abuse is just to say, "you can have a VPP only if you don't abuse it." Trying to make up special rules for each abuse will drive you insane.

[Guest innominatus]

Jeez...did you guys even READ the post I wrote?

 

1.) Coach: I already said this was an N*P*C mage -- I was just trying an experiment and was trying to address the larger issue: "how long should Continuing Charge powers from a VPP be allowed to last?"

 

2.) Killer Shrike: The issue is CONTINUING CHARGES. It clearly states under "Charges" (and I quote): "If a Power with Continuing Charges is bought through a Multipower or VPP, and the Framework is switched to another slot or Power after a Continuing Charge is used, the Continuing Charges do not immediately turn off. They continue to affect the target or area until their duration expires." Imagine: A SWAT cop pulls the pin on a smoke grenade and throw it at you. You pick it up and start running around with it, concealed in the smoke. The cop pulls out his pistol (another slot in his "cop gadgets" Multipower) and tries to shoot you. The smoke doesn't instantly dissipate; the grenade keeps spewing out smoke until it runs out of chemicals. THIS is what we're talking about. I craft a ring with a "fuel" charge of Invisibility. The year's worth (or however long I make it for) of "invisibility energy" is INSIDE THE RING, ready to be used or reserved, switched on or off at the wearer's whim. Once the ring is complete and the charge has been triggered, I no longer have to keep my VPP's points dedicated to the Invisibility power, because the "fuel" to maintain the invisibility has already been placed within the ring. I can shoot my mystic energy bolts, or teleport back home, or even start working on enchanting a new item.

 

To your credit, though, I DID miss that rule about their being a maximum cap of +1 Advantage for regular charges (although I don't know and FREd doesn't specify if Fuel or Continuing Charges count as "regular" for determining whether or not the cap applies).

[Guest innominatus]

Coach --

 

Another way to handle "Aid-Man" would be to simply enforce the Long-Term Endurance rules. Just tell your VPP guy: "Sure, you can zap your buddies and buff them up as much as you want; you're going to need it too, 'cause after using your power so many times you're going to need your teammates to defend you because you're too exhausted to move."

[jtelson]

We've tended to be very careful with VPP in our group (After a few unsettling incidents) so this problem has never really arisen. I would look at the scale involved - anything that would persist after the adventure/scenario ended I would require the character to buy external to the pool. As far as within the cofines of the adventure - I'm not sure - this could create some very abusive situations. I guess I would take it on a case by case basis - A charm to protect a hostage from detectionno problem make it last as long as you like - force fields on you and your friends starting at the beginning of the scenario and not going away til the end - come a little closer so I can smack you.

 

Oh - DigitalGolem - Great idea on permenant effects.

[Killer Shrike]

innominatus wrote:Killer Shrike: The issue is CONTINUING CHARGES. It clearly states under "Charges" (and I quote): "If a Power with Continuing Charges is bought through a Multipower or VPP, and the Framework is switched to another slot or Power after a Continuing Charge is used, the Continuing Charges do not immediately turn off. They continue to affect the target or area until their duration expires." Imagine: A SWAT cop pulls the pin on a smoke grenade and throw it at you. You pick it up and start running around with it, concealed in the smoke. The cop pulls out his pistol (another slot in his "cop gadgets" Multipower) and tries to shoot you. The smoke doesn't instantly dissipate; the grenade keeps spewing out smoke until it runs out of chemicals. THIS is what we're talking about. I craft a ring with a "fuel" charge of Invisibility. The year's worth (or however long I make it for) of "invisibility energy" is INSIDE THE RING, ready to be used or reserved, switched on or off at the wearer's whim. Once the ring is complete and the charge has been triggered, I no longer have to keep my VPP's points dedicated to the Invisibility power, because the "fuel" to maintain the invisibility has already been placed within the ring. I can shoot my mystic energy bolts, or teleport back home, or even start working on enchanting a new item.

 

 

Yes, I am aware that you were discussing Continuing Charges; that is why the general info regarding FOCI in VPPs came first followed by the specific paragraph that begins As far as Continuous Charges.

 

The 1st para is relevant to situations where you have a Power in a VPP bought through a Universal Focus (which may or may not have Charges) and then lend that Focus out.

 

If you do have a Continuing Charge item that is part of an item usable by others via a FOCI and you lend that FOCI out to friends while switching your VPP around IT DOES COUNT AGAINST THE VPP POINTS as noted in the 1st paragraph in my first post.

 

You seem to be confusing powers bought with Charges and powers bought through FOCI which have Charges. A Charge is not an Item per se, it is a power source (although Recoverable can often blur this line conceptually) and cant be lent out to anyone directly; rather the effects of the power you attach a Continuing Charge will continue.

 

To take your example: If you have a Ring which grants Invisibility at the will of the wearer, then the ring is a FOCI which contains 1 or more charges and its not a question of whether the Continuing Charge persists when you switch the VPP around, rather it falls under the rules for lending out powers from a VPP bought via a FOCI; you cant switch those points out because they are locked into the FOCI you loaned out.

 

In other words, its a function of the FOCI which allows others to use powers out of your VPP, not a function of Charges. If you have a FOCI which has Charges, then yes others can use the FOCI if you have defined it as Universal, but you cant switch the Real Cost points in that FOCI out of you VPP while the FOCI is lent out.

 

 

 

By contrast, if you want to endow someone else with Invisibility without using a Focus and apply a Continuing Charge to that you would also have to apply either UBO or UBA to Invisibility (normally Self-Only IIRC), depending on whether the target or you had control over the effects of the power, in addition to the Continuing Charge limitation.

 

I.e., If you want to be able to 'cast a spell'/grant the benefits of a power to another character and then switch the points out of the VPP and have the effect continue, you need to use either 0 END Contin Uncontrolled or Continuing Charges and if you want the recipient to be able to use the power rather than just benefiting from the effects of the power it must also be bought UBO.

 

 

In such a situation, yes, you can switch the slot out of the VPP perhaps even in combat or at will assuming your VPP's control cost is bought to allow you to do so -- and with a Skill roll by default even then, and the Continuing Charge will continue to function for its duration. Continuing Charges are the Charge equivalent of Uncontrolled and behave similarly.

 

 

 

For this privelege the character has paid a steep price on both the VPP & Control Cost itself, and as I indicated in my first post, on the +1 Advantage (for the 1 Century increment you noted) on the power itself which serves to literally cut in half the actual Base Points available to whatever power you are using in this fashion, plus UBO if the recipient actually has control over the power for the duration and can use that power as opposed to just benefiting from the effects of your use of the power for a duration of time, or if the power is normally Self-Only.

 

 

Further, because of the way Charges work in a VPP, as noted under the VPP rules, if you switch the VPP back to the Power in question the Charge remains expended; cycling it out and back into the VPP does not reset the counter. Thus there is a finite limit on how many times you can do this. As an additional control, any GM would be within his rights to say that Charges used in such a fashion dont recover while still 'active'; i.e., the GM could rule that until the Continuing Charge expires, it counts as a Charge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, the primary built-in control to this application of the Continuing Charges and VPP rules, which you seem to be ignoring, is that all Continuing Charges MUST HAVE A REASONABLY COMMON WAY TO TURN THEM OFF, which consumes the charge in the process. Thus your example smoke grenade and Invisibility Ring both must have a way to turn them off that is fairly easily attained or accomplished. If they dont then they are not legal constructs and dont qualify for the Continuing Charges modifier.

 

 

YMMV

[coach]

Originally posted by innominatus

Jeez...did you guys even READ the post I wrote?

 

1.) Coach: I already said this was an N*P*C mage -- I was just trying an experiment and was trying to address the larger

Heh, I guess I did miss that because in that case I don't understand the question. Your question, "Has anyone else ever tried this, or had someone in a campaign attempt such a trick? What sort of ground rules would you set for such a character so as to limit the obvious potential for abuse?" I mean, it's your campaign and your NPC, right? Just let him build permanant objects until you think it is enough. Was there something else I missed? Personally, I don't know that I would allow Charges in a VPP at all. I don't like the way it is written and think it is terribly abusive. It just seems like freebie Limitations.

[Killer Shrike]

Check this ruling for more info:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2723

[Gary]

From the FAQ:

 

Q: For Clips in particular, but to some extent Continuing Charges, Boostable Charges, and Recoverable Charges as well, do you calculate the cost — as one step down the Charges table, or a 1/4 reduction in the Limitation value? The step from 1 Charge to 2 Charges involves more than a 1/4 reduction, and the Charges Table reaches a point where the value stops increasing.

 

 

 

A: Clips work by going one step down the table. Except for going from 1 to 2 Charges, this entails a 1/4 reduction in the value of the Limitation. That changes, of course, when the Charges reach the level of a -0 Limitation or an Advantage. Then the “reduction†actually entails increasing the value of the Advantage by 1/4. For normal Charges, this increase is affected by the +1 cap — don’t increase the value of the Advantage beyond +1.

 

The same applies to Continuing Charges, Boostable Charges, and Recoverable Charges. However, they can increase beyond +1; continue to increase the value of the Advantage by +1/4 for each step down the Charges Table (as already shown for Boostable and Recoverable Charges).

 

Continuing charges can have above +1 advantage. 1 charge lasting 1 century should be 15 steps down the chart, and thus should be a +2 advantage, not +1.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Gary

From the FAQ:

SNIP

Continuing charges can have above +1 advantage. 1 charge lasting 1 century should be 15 steps down the chart, and thus should be a +2 advantage, not +1.

 

Cool. Thanks for the catch. Thus, it is even more ridiculously expensive to have a 1 century Contin Charge.

[Guest innominatus]

Thank you, Gary; considering the usefulness of having a power with a charge that could hang around for a century or more, passing from owner to owner and the like and never needing Endurance, it seemed like it was much more valuable than just a +1 Advantage would indicate.

 

And Killer Shrike -- the question you posed to Mr. Long isn't really relevant to the point I was trying to make. Remember: it's an item with a SINGLE Charge. Once the charge is activated, the item that originally contained it is no longer a Focus (the singular for FOCI -- learn it, live it, love it!), it's just an inert, inanimate object. The CHARGE itself (the thing that's generating the power's effect) is out loose and generating the Power -- it just happens to be stuck to that same inert hunk of jewelry or whatever. Now if the item my mage created had more than one charge to it, then certainly as a GM I'd insist the character maintain the VPP points in the item in order to access those further charges.

 

As far as your remark about the "reasonably common way to turn it off", I'd submit to you the example offered with the Thanatic Rod in "Mystic Masters" -- you can get rid of the thing by using Adjustment Powers (Suppress, Dispel, Drain, Transfer) to de-power it, or take the Mt. Doom approach by casting it back to the fires where it was forged, or whatever.

 

You also made some comment about the "steep price paid" for building the power, to which I would say, "So what?" Are you telling me you COULDN'T think of about a hundred different useful items you could create for 30 Active Points (24 if you insist on "Usable By Others")? Sure, it might only be a 12/12 Force Field ring, or a 12" Cloak of Flight, or an amulet that provides Life Support safety in most environments, but consider that:

 

1.) You'll NEVER have to pay END to use the power,

 

2.) After the initial creation, you'll NEVER have to tie up those VPP points to generate the effect,

 

3.) If you build the single Charge as a Fuel Charge, you can turn the power on and off at will and it'll STILL be there for a duration measured in decades,

 

4.) With the exception of GM fiat, there's no upper limit to how many of these Continuing Charge Powers you could have up and running at any time.

 

I'll be the first to admit the nature of these Continuing Charges is rife with possibilities for abuse. That being said, I like the idea of using such a system for creating magic items (especially in a Fantasy Hero campaign) infinitely more than the current method of Independent Foci, ESPECIALLY for consumable items like potions and scrolls. I mean, why would any SANE wizard sink perfectly good Character Points into a magic item that could only be used once, when for just a few more points he could master the spell itself and be able to cast it as often as he liked? Unless you postulate that certain objects (spell components and whatnot) can have Character Points "locked" inside them, and can only be used for crafting such items, it makes no sense...

[Killer Shrike]

I never argued that the controller of the VPP couldnt use Powers on Continuing Charges and have them stick around for him. What Ive argued is your assertion that you could create 'magic items' with Continuing Charges and hand them out to others. Putting powers into an item which is usable from a VPP and can be distributed is using the FOCI rules to allow others to use the powers and that is what I have been illustrating to you as not working quite as you seem to think.

 

If you make a power like:

 

Flight X" 1 Continuing Charge (1 Day), then YOU as the controller of the VPP could use it and it would last 1 Day BUT no one else could use it.

 

IF you wanted to distribute the ability to use this ability to others you cound either buy it Usable By Others for +1/4, likely with Persistent (+1/2) so LOS is waived, OR buy it as a Universal Focus OR, if you want to retain control over the use of the power, Usabel as Attack. Of the 3 options UBO and FOCI are the most likely modifiers, so lets take a look at those.

 

With the UBO option (which is an advantage youll note), you CAN switch the points of the Flight power out of the VPP and the Continuing Charge will still stay active and the recipient of the power can continue to use it at thier discretion. WIth the FOCI route, (which is a limitation youll note) if the Focus is defined Universal than anyone can use the power but you dont have any control at all over the item once it leaves your possession; further being a Focus you cant loan it out and switch the points out of the VPP in accordance to the VPP/Foci rules.

 

What you cant do is make a Universal Focus, loan it out of the VPP on a Continuing Charge and then swap the points out of the VPP.

 

RE: Steep Price: If you dont care about the costs involved, then go ahead and piss points away. I wouldnt put all my eggs into 1 'reasonably common means to deactivate' basket but its your character.

 

RE: Reasonably Common means of deactivating: If you think throwing something into Mount Doom is 'Reasonably Common' I begin to see where some of the problem might lay in this being abused. Unless there's a Mount Doom on every other street corner in your campaign then, yeah, its going to be hard to shut down a bunch of 20 base point effects bought through long lasting Continuing Charges defined as destroyable by being cast into Mount Doom.

[Killer Shrike]

As an aside, since your main thrust seems to be finding a way to handle crafting Magic Items in a Fantasy campaign, I though I might share a method Ive used to good effect.

 

In the past in a Fantasy setting using the HERO System I ruled that "Ephemeral Magic Items", meaning FOCI with Non Recoverable Charges and the SFX: Magic, could be paid for with money rather than character points because, as you point out, it is retarded for any Mage/Wizard/Whatever to burn Character Points to create Scrolls, Potions, and other such items; there is no percentage in it.

 

IIRC the monetary cost used was Real Cost x Active Cost in gold to make and the Market Price would be a 150% markup or more, which was very very expensive relative to the game economy, and of course modified by in character (In-C) bartering and applicable skill rolls and/or use of PRE.

 

Non ephemeral items were paid for in points (for the mechanic) AND money (the in-game materials and labor (P&L will cost you in any timeframe)). The same cost formulae was used for P&L IIRC. As far as points go, a Wizard paid points and money to make items unless the item was commisioned, in which case the commisioning party paid the points and the money. This helped take the burden off a Wizard getting hit up by all of his PC friends to make items for them; they had to pay the points AND whatever monetary cost the Wizard set as his price for P&L (and profit should he see fit).

 

As an important note, all Magic Items were required to take the Universal FOCI and IND limitation, and acquired magic item were essentially 'found points' but were also unalterable. These items could also be sold for money; most merchants would pay RC x AC or trade at 125-150% markup, modified up or down by bartering In-C, applicable skill rolls and/or use of PRE. Some items always sold at a premium however, and were strictly a sellers market, like Rings of Power, some powerful Staffs, or any beneficial item with 200 or more Active Points (which would be regarded as near-artifacts) and would sell at top dollar in a big enough market, and even more powerful items were effectively priceless and would sell for whatever the market could bear.

 

Private buyers usually would buy at a higher rate, but were usually harder to find. Some bigger metropolitan cities would have 1 or more Consignment Agents and/or an Auction House which could be used to find potential buyers at a higher rate, but which would of course take a percentage cut or some other renumeration.