New to Hero, couple of questions :)

[Ferretz]

Hi,

 

I have never actually played Hero before, but I have Dark Champions and Hero Revised. I have read most of the rules, but I have a couple of questions.

 

The first one must seem very basic and silly to people who know the game more than me, but I'm still not sure on this. What do I roll when it says, for example, 4 1/2 D6? Do I roll 4d6 and divide by 2 or something?

 

The second question is a bit more complicated. Firearms in Hero are treated as a Ranged Killing Attack, right? But the maximum range of firearms, is that Active Cost times 5''? This seems a bit silly to me. Here is an axample:

Barrett Model 82A1, which fires .50 caliber rounds have an active cost of 79. This means that the maximum range of this weapon, in Hero, is 395'', which is 790 meters. Ehm.. wrong. This weapon can fire, and hit targets of up to 1800 meters. The Walther WA-2000 is 7.62mm, and has an Active Cost of 88, which means that this rifle has more range.

Am I overlooking something important here?

 

Eirik

[MitchellS]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

Hello Eirik and welcome to the boards!

 

The damage works as follows: You roll 4d6 and you roll a separate 1d6. The 1d6 is counted as a half die. A roll of 1 or 2 counts as 1, a roll of 3-4 counts as 2, and a roll of 5 or 6 counts as 3 to the total. So the damage range for a 41/2d6 attack is 5 to 27. I hope that makes sense?

 

As far as the range I don't have the DC book here with me but it's possible the Barrett might have an increased range advantage or it could just be the fact that Steve made a mistake with the weapon. Only he can answer that.

[Ferretz]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

Increased Range Advantage? How does that work? I mean, DC is so detailed when it comes to firearms, so I find it hard to believe that this mistake could come up. Hmm...

 

Eirik

[Legendsmiths]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

*waves hand* pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

 

The active point/range relationship is really only appropriate for powers in general. Hero isn't attempting to redefine what reality says about weapons (read the sidebar at the beginning of Chapter 5).

 

Range in Hero, especially extreme ranges really has more to do with the range modifier. The barret get's +4 and that does not include a scope, which a x8 = +9 vs. Range. 1000m = -14, and assuming a Set & Brace Maneuver equals +1 OCV & +2 RMod, +1 OCV due to the rifle and you have a net +2 OCV +15 RMod vs. a -14 Range penalty. A 5 OCV character has a 11 +5 + 2 + 15 -14 = 19 - DCV or less to hit the target. Since most targets from that range will likely be surprised, they are at best 1/2 DCV if not 0 DCV and probably 1/2 Hit Location penalties. Assuming a 5 DCV target walking (1/2 DCV), you could get a called shot to the head with a 19 - 5/2 - 8/2 = 12 or less.

 

That assumes only a weapon familiarity and no skill levels for the shooter. I'm afraid that 3d6K with a +1 STUN multiplier doing double STUN due to surprise will probably eliminate the target quite well at that range.

 

My suggestion: don't worry about maximum range in ballistics terms. The system makes long range shots difficult enough and the weapons are built to reflect that well enough that range modifiers handle all the limiation you need. Obviously someone trying to shoot a pistol 1000m is a bit rediculous, but basic reality checks aside I don't think it is really that necessary.

 

If it does matter, just make a list of maximum ranges using ballistics stats (any ammo manufacturer has them). For even more realism make a 3/4 damage, 1/2 damage, an 1/4 damage ranges to reflect the loss of energy over flight. Being very familiar with guns and having played that level of detail I am happy to say that I prefer the dramatic realism of letting the range modifier system in Hero define my range attacks.

[MitchellS]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

A +1/4 advantage increase the range by up to x5, so if the Barrett has a range of 395" one level of increase range modifier will take that upto a maximum of 1,975". It's in 5Er page 266.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

Increased range advantage is detailed in the main rulebook. It just increases maximum range. I don't see that advantage as a note for that weapon however.

[Ferretz]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

But, if I would only use the range modifier with the weapon, then the Barrett would have no range advantage over, say, the Walther W-2000, which is a 7.62mm, with a max effective range of about 1km. The ammo itself would add no difference, would it?

 

Eirik

[Legendsmiths]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

Yes, because they both have about the same max effective range. The W2000 uses as listed the 7.62x66mm round which is the .300 magnum. This is different than the standard 7.62x51mm Nato round. While the barret may be able to fire farther, it's accuracy is greatly reduced over 1000m. I don't see them as being all that different within the game beyond the damage they do. Considering the mass difference I would choose the W2000 everytime unless I were in a safe fixed position. That extra 5kg of mass would be a pain in the butt to sneak around with.

[Ferretz]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

But, the Walther has a max effective range of about 1000 meters, while the Barrett has a max effective range of about 1800 meters. That's a big difference, I would say. My source for this is http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm.

But I guess I could just use the max ranges from this web site. But I would like to have seen this covered in the rules, though.

 

Another questions about this. According to the tables in DC, won't the Active Cost increase when the weapon has more bullets in it? Then this also increases it's range? Huh??

 

Eirik

[MitchellS]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

I don't think you should get too caught up in the idea of range based on active points. Just use the ranges you are familiar with and let the range modifiers do the rest. If your Barrett can shoot 900 inches then just let is shoot the far and deal with the range modifiers based on that.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

I didn't see on that site where it says the max range of the barret is 1800m. I do see in both the M82 and M99 description where they say they are accurate to 1000m with a 4" shot group (5 rounds).

 

You are correct in that the active points will go up depending on how much ammo you have. The active point/range model is only appropriate for super powers. For heroic level games they are simply a guideline. The range modifier really is the key, and only these larger sniper rifles have the modifiers necessary to make the long shot, especially since you can't affix a 10x scope to a pistol very effectively.

 

The range modifier does everything you need for dramatic play.

[Ferretz]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

The max effective range is listed for every weapon on that site, in the "stats".

 

Anyway, my main problem is that there really is no range advantage in the rules for a .50 round over a 7.62 round. But that site is good for putting a cap on the range of the weapons, I think.

 

Eirik

[Legendsmiths]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

Right. It's not listed for the M99 (but is for the M82 and M95). However, in the text the record was set at a 4" shot group at 1000m. So, while the effective range might be 1800m, that doesn't mean that the accuracy is great at that range.

 

There is no range advantage between rounds until you reach the maximum effective range of the round. I think using the site to determine the caps on range is exactly what you should do. But out to 1000m I'm not sure that there is a real advantage to a .50 or a .300 magnum unless things like severe wind are involved. And while this may be an important factor in reality, it may be too subtle a variance to worry about either dramatically or statistically (since you are modifying by +/-1 on 3d6 which can vary as much as 12.5%).

[Herolover]

Re: New to Hero, couple of questions

 

This is not meant to be any type of criticism, but you may be falling into a trap that many hero fans and players fall into.

 

Why are you worried about the guns range and its write up?

 

If you are playing a "Supers" game (where players have to spend points for equipment) and a player wants to make up the gun then have him write up the gun and that is the range it has. Maybe his gun has limited range or give it the Increased Max Range advantage to the point that you want. Either way the official write up won't matter but the write up the player has done will.

 

If, on the other hand, you are a player or GM in a Heroic level campaign (where players don't have to pay points for equipment) then the write up of the gun doesn't really matter. Points for equipment don't matter so just give the gun what you think it should have.

 

This goes for any equipment in a heroic level campaign. Who cares what its write up is, all you need to do is not what it does.

 

HERO systems is a really good system that I use for everything, but don't get caught up in points and doing everything just right.

 

Steve Long had a quote, I have since lost it, that to paraphrase said: If you are worried about doing things the exact right, cheapest way, then you are loosing the purpose of the system.