MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

[xanatos]

MnM has a very very good rule about HP: you can spend one of them to have for a round any other power that is "in concept" with your character... Your level of the power is based on "converting" 1-1 the points of the power you are stunting from to the new power (so if you have an Energy Blast 10 (10x2pt) you can convert it in a Energy Blast Area (cost = 3pt/level, so you get a level 6 power for a round))

(yes, I know... The rule is a little different... stunting causes fatigue and HP cure fatigue). Do you think it would be possible to "import" this rule in Hero for a Heroic campaign? Should I use AP or Real points?

 

--- bye

[MitchellS]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

There are already several things you can do in Hero without HP. Spreading to cover area is already one of them. You also have things like rapidfire to get an extra attack, etc.

 

We use luck like HPs in our game. At the beginning of the game each person rolls 1d6 and that is the number of free luck points they get for the night. For each d6 they buy they roll one more. Each one point spent can be +/- 1 to a roll [depending on need]. Spending 2 points will get an extra +/-1 DC on an attack. Spending 3 gets you 1/2 phase haymaker. Spending 4 gets you 5 emergency Stun or 1 body. Spending 5 gets you a free recovery with half phase instead of full. Spending 6 gets you one extra speed for the turn.

[xanatos]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

Yeah... But there are other funny things you can do in MnM... You find an intangible monster... You spend an HP and your power can hit intangible things for a round (you are changing the frequency of your eyebeams)... And you can even totally change the power (you have eyebeams... You use them to entangle the enemy fusing something on them)...)

They are probably the best rule of MnM... You can have that "feel" of comic books where superheroes are not limited by the powers they have bought but by their imagination in using them ("stunting" them, using a word that is even used in Exalted).

In Hero this is normally simulated by small VPP, but I don't like it

(from a balance point-of-view this isn't a problem for not-VPP using players... All of them have the same options, and in MnM even the GM has Villain Points that work like HP). In MnM players buy the powers that normally they use, not the powers that are used once-in-a-lifetime. (and they even get very good discounts for buying multiple useless powers)

 

--- bye

[RDU Neil]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

Here is how I use Luck as a Fate/Hero system... and it does all that you indicated, xanatos.

 

There are numerous threads abounding on these boards about just such a thing.

 

Welcome!

 

House Rules : Luck Chits

 

At the beginning of each session the Players draw randomly one Luck Chit from the Bag . Player Characters with the Luck Power randomly draw an additional Luck Chit for every d6 of Luck they have purchased.

 

At the End of each session all Players return any unspent Luck Chits to the Bag . Sometimes you want Quantity, sometimes Quality. The Luck Chits go away at the end of the game, no carry over. Use 'em or lose 'em... which encourages interactive use and not hording .

 

White Luck Chits : x 30 [ 1W = 1W ] Lowest level chit. Allows a Reroll of any one roll you control . Or allows an Abort Maneuver ( to Dodge , Block , Dive for Cover , etc … ) without using an Action . It also allows a single Recovery , without using an Action . It also allows Players to modify the Hit Location Chart ( Defensively ) and move the hit location by One ( up or down ) .

 

Green Luck Chits : x 30 [ 1G = 2W ] Mid Level chit. Same as all of the White abilities, plus you can spend a Green to take away a single die in a "to hit" or "skill" roll, to gain a success . Rolled a 15... spend a green , take away that 6, now you have a 9! Success! (the GM randomly draws a chit for the villains, if you spend a Green .) It also allows Players to modify the Hit Location Chart ( Defensively ) and move the hit location by Two ( up or down ) .

 

Blue Luck Chits : x 30 [ 1B = 3W or 1G & 1W ] Same as all of Green abilities, without any benefit to GM. Blue is also a way to "flex" powers in a supers game. It allows a power to be used in a way that fits the SFX, but without having paid points for a specific power/effect. [ Ex: Flame character... wants to reduce the fire in a room to save a child... but doesn't have the power Suppress or Change Enviornment or anything like that. Spends a Blue for this one action, his EB - Fireblast (or whatever) becomes Suppress normal fires, and he can do it ]

Blue also allows for "dramatic editing" so that the character can simply say, "I grab the broom handle and snap it off, so I have a stake to fight the vampire!" rather than asking, "Is there anything wooded around?" In the case I highlighted in the last Secret Worlds adventure... on PC was way out of the combat, and spent the Blue to come up with a creative way to get his character there "right now!" . It also allows Players to modify the

Hit Location Chart ( Defensively and Offensively ) and move the hit location by Three ( up or down ) .

 

Yellow Luck Chit : x 1 [ 1Y = 2B or 3G or 6W ] There is only one in the bag , but if drawn, the player can become GM for a scene. They get to create and event or subplot or something along those lines, that fits with their character concept and long term goals. I've had one person spend it so his character finally got his Thesis on Paranormal Gestation Theory published, and to wide acclaim, so he became famous in those circles as THE expert on metahuman bio-genesis.

Another spent it, so that during a mission, he accidentally stumbled across some critical information about villain financing... this changed the entire SHAPE of the campaign, as the villains funding was exposed, and they had to come out of the shadows, rather than manipulate from behind the scenes.

 

The Yellow Luck Chit is usually just one "scene" or "event" The players don't tend to really run the game in terms of controlling NPCs.. they just say, "Ok... here's this cool thing that I want to have happen, with this or that character..." They often don't force a certain outcome, they just want to have something that really shows off their character, or allows their character to have a really big impact on the plot. ( I guess it could be abused, but I've got great players. They tend to enhance the story and the world... not control it. )

 

Luck Power : [ each d6 Luck = 1 Luck Chit ] Drawn randomly and still allows the Player Characters to use the Luck Power as written in HERO System 5th Edition .

 

Translation of shorthand ; x 30 - means there are 30 of that color chits in a bag . As for this one [ 1Y = 2B or 3G or 6W ] 1 Yellow Chit is worth 2 Blue Chits or 3 Green Chits or 6 White Chits . Hope that clears it up .

 

It's a great system ... players seem to really love it ... and it gives flexibility within limits. I've been doing it for probably 6 years or more at this point. I'd never go back. .

 

I'd created a generic "luck roll" to help determine random events. Roll 3d6... sixes good, ones bad. So if a player asks something like, "I need a rock to throw at the wild dogs making off with the baby!" I'd say, "Roll a luck roll," to determine if there just happened to be a rock around. Good luck, there is a perfect throwing rock, right at your feet. Bad luck... no rock to be found. Neither/nor... there is a rock, but it's 20 feet away, and will take a turn to get it.

 

That kind of thing. Luck ( the Talent back then, now a Power ) allowed characters to roll an extra die for each luck die they had... and that die could only be good for them (ones didn't count . )

 

This worked pretty well, but for years there was a need to open up Champs/HERO System, to allow some flexibility with powers and give players a little more control over their characters destiny and story .

 

Then I played Deadlands. (Original Deadlands, when it first came out.) They had chips (poker chips) that you could spend to soak wounds, or make rolls better, or whatever. It was a great mechanic. After only one session, I realized that this was a way to make Luck in Hero very viable .

 

Others have started using this, and really like it. If you have any questions, just PM me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

What MitchellS said, or....if you buy the skill 'power' you can use it to modify the way your power works on a one off basis.

 

Alternatively (and this is house ruling, not in any way official) you can spend XP to modify your powers in-game - a multipower slot is only likely to cost a few points OR I'd let someone spend an XP to have a multipower slot of the new power for this combat only (buy it as a one continuing change, never recovers slot). I'd let them do that even if the 'base power' was not currently in a multipower, if I felt it added to the feel of the game, and if I didn't I wouldn't allow. That's the great thing about house rules....

[MitchellS]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

Power "stunts" are handled via the Power Skill.

[xanatos]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

Power "stunts" are handled via the Power Skill.

Yeah, but with absolutely no guideline on how to use them :-)

And from the description it seems that it should be used for "background" tricks (turning coal to diamonds? writing something on steel with superstrenght?)

They explicitly tell you to not use them as cheap VPP and to not use them in combat or to add advantages to powers.

 

--- bye

[MitchellS]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

Yeah, but with absolutely no guideline on how to use them :-)

And from the description it seems that it should be used for "background" tricks (turning coal to diamonds? writing something on steel with superstrenght?)

They explicitly tell you to not use them as cheap VPP and to not use them in combat or to add advantages to powers.

 

--- bye

As far as using them in combat I think the few examples we have in CKC would disagree with you, as would the write up in the back of USPD. I'm sure Power Skill will get a sizable expansion in The Ultimate Skill though.

[tesuji]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

IMO, from the uspd and such, power skill does do the stunt thing, but its no where near the level of freedom you would want if you were looking for the MnM thing. IIRC the guidelines it basically allowing tweaks up to a rather low % of the active points of the base power, nothing near a complete full strength power.

 

if you want to emulate the MnM thing a little more precisely, i would suggest the following:

 

1. you dont actually have hero points.

2. you must succeed at a power skill roll. (Assume its 8- everyman unless taken.)

3. the use of the power is at high end cost, like either 2x or 5x. (In MnM its actually EXTRA EFFORT to gain power stunts and extras on the fly not a hero pt!!) you could even go so far as to say its 10x end and make it pushing the power but thats a little far.

 

Now, if you wanted to be funky with the possibilities, you could do the following...

 

1. describe the power and get Gm ok. it must be obvious within concept.

2. Make a use power skill roll (default to 8- as a everyman skill.)

3. if the roll fails, the power goes off but at 10xend, pushing!

4. if the roll is made the power goes off at 5xend.

5. if the roll is made and made by at least ap/10 extra, the power goes off at 2xend.

 

So turning your 12d6 firebolt into a 6d6 NND smoke choking blast would either cost 60 end (if you failed the roll), 30 end (if you made the roll but only by 0-+5), or only 12 end (if you made it by +6 or more.)

 

this means, you WILL succeed but at possibly great end cost and even at risk of being in "knock yourself out" overexertion.

[Sean Waters]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

Yeah, but with absolutely no guideline on how to use them :-)

And from the description it seems that it should be used for "background" tricks (turning coal to diamonds? writing something on steel with superstrenght?)

They explicitly tell you to not use them as cheap VPP and to not use them in combat or to add advantages to powers.

 

--- bye

 

I'd use it exactly like a VPP, I think the injunction is so that you don't keep doing it. If your style of play allows lends itself to allowing advantages and so to be added, go for it. Just be aware that Hero is a points based system so allowing someone to change their EB to allow it to effect desolid is probably going to tick off the poor schmuck who actually paid points to be able to do that.....

 

In MnM it doesn't matter so much as the level of definition is far lower in any case.

 

If you want to play it that way in Hero, house rule that everyone gets +1/2 variable advantages for free. So long as everyone knows the ground rules you should be alright.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

I discussed in the Power Skill thread how I arbitrate this in my campaigns:

 

I let my heroes do anything they want with the power skill as long as it relates to the special effect. With two stipulations...

 

1) Every time they attempt to repeat a use of their special effect without having purchased the power, they suffer a cumulative -1 for each attempt beyond the first.

 

2) For every use of the power skill in a game session beyond the first suffers a cumulative -1 as well.

 

Example: ElectroBoy wants to use his command of electricity to fritz with TechnoMan's radar sensors. He doesn't have this as a power. He has done this before (-1), and he's used his power skill twice before in that evening's gaming session (-2), which means he must make his roll at -3.

 

Arguably, this is a lot of bookkeeping, but not really. A power skill roll (in my campaign at least) represents a very creative use of a power's special effect. This happens, but rarely enough that I can remember when a given character's tried to fritz with radar. If I don't remember ("Oh, he's done it 3 or 4 times..."), I give them the worse of the two (so, -4).

 

Works well for me.

 

This has continued to work for me as a very efficient and balanced way of allowing characters to make creative use of their special effect.

 

It has also had the benefit of allowing a new concept definition of characters - breadth of power. Characters with a low Power Skill (or no Power skill at all) have trouble being creative with their powers. Whereas characters with a Power Skill of 17- always have a given use of their special effect ready and at hand.

 

This can be seen in the differences between different eras of Superman. He used to be able to do all kinds of crazy things, but the writers have toned that down lately. It's like his Power Skill has gotten smaller.

[Sean Waters]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

I discussed in the Power Skill thread how I arbitrate this in my campaigns:

 

 

 

This has continued to work for me as a very efficient and balanced way of allowing characters to make creative use of their special effect.

 

It has also had the benefit of allowing a new concept definition of characters - breadth of power. Characters with a low Power Skill (or no Power skill at all) have trouble being creative with their powers. Whereas characters with a Power Skill of 17- always have a given use of their special effect ready and at hand.

 

This can be seen in the differences between different eras of Superman. He used to be able to do all kinds of crazy things, but the writers have toned that down lately. It's like his Power Skill has gotten smaller.

 

 

...that or his 'Put off readers by doing stupid, unrealistic stuff' skill has....

[xanatos]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

I discussed in the

This has continued to work for me as a very efficient and balanced way of allowing characters to make creative use of their special effect.

 

It has also had the benefit of allowing a new concept definition of characters - breadth of power. Characters with a low Power Skill (or no Power skill at all) have trouble being creative with their powers. Whereas characters with a Power Skill of 17- always have a given use of their special effect ready and at hand.

 

This can be seen in the differences between different eras of Superman. He used to be able to do all kinds of crazy things, but the writers have toned that down lately. It's like his Power Skill has gotten smaller.

Wow... It's fantastic!! Now the big question... How do you calc how much powerful can be the power emulated? Do you use the Real Pt. of the original power or the AP?

 

--- bye

[Citizen Keen]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

I play it by ear and by how much the character makes his roll by. If he has four powers with 90+ Active Points and he makes his roll by 4, then probably up to a hundred Active Points. If he doesn't have a power over 60 Active Points and he makes his roll by 0, then he probably gets about 40 Active Points.

 

I generally apply Limitations and Advantages based on the nature of the power, the situation, role-playing ideas and common sense. If a character is a Powered Armor kind of guy, then he'll probably get OIF on the power. If he's a Weaponmaster with a giant multipower gun, and he wants to shoot his grenade into the sand causing dust to rise up as Darkness, then it'll cost 1 charge. I generally game with good groups, so role-playing takes precedence over points, since I use the Power Skill to encourage role-playing anyway.

 

Good luck!

[zornwil]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

For the record, I think MnM currently handles this better, at least if we stay in the core rulebook, than HERO. I don't have CKC but do have USPD. I just think that xanatos is correct in bringing this up for further discussion and I think people are sweeping it under the rug a bit - not out of rudeness or any ill intent, we just tend to feel proud about our system.

 

To me the Power Skill is very good and perhaps the best innovation in 5th Edition (I am very fond of the Change Environment changes btw also). I do think it requires some more fleshing out, and I would really like to see us find ways to replace pools with simply more flexible power sets. I tend to agree with the points in this thread that MnM has given this more thought and better implemented it.

 

However, there's some inherent system reasons for this. MnM is a much looser, fudgier game - that is both its strength and weakness. In HERO we have to be more careful and granular in approach, so we have to feel our way through making Luck, Power SKill, Variable Advantages, and other such items really not only work but be elegant in use, so that we don't have to write 20 pages on just how to accomplish some simple versatility. I do think the current HERO rules are very good. I think Variable Advantage is a wonderful tool towards this as is Power Skill, even as written now. But Power Skill, I say, can, should, and will grow over time in the offical rules as we learn to best use it in a way that is both non-abusive and elegant.

[Sean Waters]

Re: MnM Hero Points ("Power Stunt" "mode")

 

But Power Skill' date=' I say, can, should, and will grow over time in the offical rules as we learn to best use it in a way that is both non-abusive and elegant.[/quote']

 

Your wish....

 

An idea to add a little more structure to the use of the power skill. Note the modification of the power still has to be 'explicable': you can't turn your force field into an extra-dimentional travel portal unless the GM is very, very drunk.

 

If you want to use power skill then you roll at -1 per 10 active points you are changing (like RSR). You can add points over the base active points of the power in the form of advantages and adders (but NOT just more dice or points of the same power) at -1 per 5 points.

 

Examples:

 

You have a 12d6 EB. You want to add armour piercing: roll at -6 (you are trying to add 30 active points over the normal active points of the power)

 

If you want to throw a 4d6 killing attack instead of an EB, you also roll at -6 (you are changing all of the power, but still within the original 60 AP you had in EB).

 

Of course you could try and throw an 8d6 AP attack which would only be changing 20 points you have not got so that would be only -2 as the active points remain within those of the EB you originally had..

 

And so on...

 

If you fail the roll the power goes off un-modified. Each use of the modified power requires a seperate roll. Any failure imposes a cumulative -1 on future rolls to modify the power in this way.

 

You could combine this with CItizen Keen's excellent ideas too if you like. It gives a bit more of a feel of a real mechanic to it and not just something you make up on the spot.